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NHLPA exec board asks players to empower PA dissolution; NHL files w/Fed court+NLRB

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Old
12-14-2012, 07:21 PM
  #101
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TORONTO (December 14, 2012): Statement from the NHLPA regarding NHL’s Complaint and Unfair Labor Practice Charge:

“The NHLPA has just received a copy of the National Labor Relations Board charge and has not yet been served with the lawsuit. However, based on what we’ve learned so far, the NHL appears to be arguing that Players should be stopped from even considering their right to decide whether or not to be represented by a union. We believe that their position is completely without merit.”
http://www.nhlpa.com/news/nhlpa-stat...ractice-charge

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12-14-2012, 07:23 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by colchar View Post
At least the players are allowed to come to any meeting they want and are allowed to speak out
Yep they're allowed to. And when they do, they get completely slammed by their fellow PA members.

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12-14-2012, 07:23 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
If the NHLPA didn't see this coming, I really don't know what to say.

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Old
12-14-2012, 07:25 PM
  #104
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Yep they're allowed to. And when they do, they get completely slammed by their fellow PA members.
Speaking out is fine, speaking out in public is like stabbing your own team in the back. If you are that stupid then you deserve to be slammed.

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12-14-2012, 07:27 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
You can't force people into a union. This is bizarre.

The NHL seems to be banking on the labor laws and the last interpretation in the NFL case, but even that ruling left the antitrust matter alone, which individual players could still pursue. I wonder if these players are planning on filing the antitrust suits perhaps?


Does this make any sense to you, Ziggy?
I'm not positive of this, but if the representatives of the unsigned draftees are NHLPA certified agents, couldn't the NHL's actions against those players be viewed as an attempt to block the named players and/or their representatives from claiming anti-trust? Take Article 6 into consideration, as the NHL and its Clubs are restricted from negotiations with anyone who is not certified with the NHLPA. I'm just guessing here and trying to make sense of this as well.

ARTICLE 6
NHLPA AGENT CERTIFICATION

6.1 Exclusive Representation. The NHL and the Clubs recognize that the NHLPA,
in accordance with its role as exclusive bargaining agent for Players, certifies and
regulates the conduct of agents who are authorized to represent Players in individual SPC
negotiations with Clubs.The Clubs may not engage in negotiations for a Player’s
individual SPC with any person other than the Player or an agent certified by the NHLPA
("Certified Agent").


The NHLPA shall, within three (3) business days following the
execution of this Agreement, provide to Central Registry in electronic format a
comprehensive list (the "Certified Agent List"), which Certified Agent List shall set
forth: (i) all currently Certified Agents (in alphabetical order by last name), and (ii) for
each Player (in alphabetical order by last name), the name of his Certified Agent(s) (in
the event the Player has more than one Certified Agent, the Certified Agent List shall
designate which Certified Agent is the Player's primary Certified Agent), if any, such
Certified Agent's agency affiliation(s), if any, mailing address(es), telephone and
facsimile number(s) and, in the event the NHLPA has, or obtains, Certified Agents' email address(es), such e-mail addresses.

The NHLPA shall thereafter provide to Central
Registry in electronic format, on a weekly basis or more frequently at the NHLPA's
discretion, any additions, deletions or other modifications to the Certified Agent List, and
on a monthly basis or more frequently at the NHLPA's discretion, an updated current and
complete Certified Agent List. Clubs will be required to be in compliance with, and shall
be entitled to rely upon, the Certified Agent List most recently provided by the NHLPA.
The NHL and Clubs will not distribute publicly the Certified Agent List, including
posting it on any website.

6.2 Player SPCs. No Club shall enter into an SPC with any Player, and the NHL
shall not register or approve any SPC unless such Player: (i) was represented in the
negotiations by a Certified Agent, or (ii) if Player has no Certified Agent, acts on his own
behalf in negotiating such SPC.

6.3 Indemnification. The NHLPA shall indemnify the NHL and any of its Clubs
against, and save them harmless from, any claim made or judgment incurred on account
of its or their refusal to negotiate with an agent or representative not certified by the
NHLPA in accordance with the NHLPA’s Agent Certification Program.

6.4 Agent Certification Program. The NHLPA shall provide to the League an
updated current copy of the Agent Certification Program within seven (7) business days
after any additions, deletions or other modifications have been made thereto, with such
additions, deletions or other modifications clearly indicated thereon. In addition, the
NHLPA shall provide to the League an updated current copy of the Agent Certification
Program within seven (7) business days following any League request therefor.

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Old
12-14-2012, 07:28 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by swimmer77 View Post
I guess though - is this what the majority of players even want - to fight this fight that is?
It's just an absolutely unbelievable horrific example of how poor relations have become between the league and its players that the players would even consider that they have to lose a year or more of salary (or play elsewhere for probably much less) to try and gain some respect in this and "future" CBA negotiations. Note the quotations, cause I'm not sure there's even a future NHL let alone a CBA. If this does eventually settle I cannot believe Bettman would continue on as commissioner. If he does, he has absolutely no sense of self respect. As for Fehr, we all know this is likely his last kick at the cat.

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12-14-2012, 07:32 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
NBA did the same thing. Their CBA was settled before any court ruled on the matter.
I'm not sure the result would necessarily be the same even if the courts had ruled on the NBA's CBA. It's a different CBA, different implications for whether players contracts are valid in the absence of a CBA. From what I've read, I believe they are in the NHL. The Standard Player Contract contains a clause saying it is contingent on, but can exist separately from, a CBA.

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Originally Posted by DL44 View Post
Can You Imagine!

You wanna see interest in hockey explode upon return after a yr or 2 off? Have a UFA class of 750-1000 players!
That would actually be tremendous. That might make me want to watch hockey again. The players get whipped and shipped randomly around the country in an orgy of spending and speculation.

Quote:
TORONTO (December 14, 2012): Statement from the NHLPA regarding NHL’s Complaint and Unfair Labor Practice Charge:

“The NHLPA has just received a copy of the National Labor Relations Board charge and has not yet been served with the lawsuit. However, based on what we’ve learned so far, the NHL appears to be arguing that Players should be stopped from even considering their right to decide whether or not to be represented by a union. We believe that their position is completely without merit.”
This sounds like stupid PR to me. I haven't read the actual papers, but everything I've heard about them doesn't seem to come close to asking for an injunction to stop the players from voting on whether to give their management the right to disclaim interest. It just means that if they succeed in voting and then attempt disclaiming interest, the court won't recognize it.

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12-14-2012, 07:33 PM
  #108
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In every other industry if a unionized workforce even made a hint of moving to decertify, the owners would ask "How can we help you along?"

But in NA sports leagues they fight it.

Why do the players even need a union anymore? This isn't the 50s where they are negotiating contracts themselves. Every player has their own personal agent.

I really hope now this doesn't get resolved. I want to see it get played out to the fullest.

Can you believe it? Owners fighting to keep a union. Crazy.

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12-14-2012, 07:37 PM
  #109
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Kyper said about a month ago he would rather face bettman in court then across the negotiating table......he might get his wish, if this crap goes through he might be able to stay in court and waste the year.

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12-14-2012, 07:40 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by colchar View Post
At least the players are allowed to come to any meeting they want and are allowed to speak out while the owners are not only not permitted to attend meetings, they are not even allowed to speak. And why hasn't the league put any offers to a vote of the owners?
The NHL owners elected the gentlemen who set these rules. They can elect to change the rules if they want... they just had a board of governors meeting last week... obviously they don't see a need to.

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12-14-2012, 07:43 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Fishhead View Post
If the NHLPA didn't see this coming, I really don't know what to say.
No where does it suggest that.

I'm pretty sure Fehr et al. followed the NBA processes extremely closely and have predicted each step of the present process just as well as the simple media has all along.

No one has their heads in the sand here... everything going swimmingly to plan for each side.

We just have wait to see what the 'surprise' ending will be...
According to script - it should be a 11th hr saved season...
BUT... there could be re-write at any time twisting the ending on us. Does the PA want to test what the courts may rule on contracts? Do the owners want to really gamble their fan base will stick around?

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12-14-2012, 07:50 PM
  #112
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The NHL beat them to the punch by filing they're claim in New York. From NHLPA's pov, Fehr needed to file it first in California or union friendly state.

I heard the union was supposed to keep this on the low, but when you got 750+ players, prevention of leaks is next to impossible I suppose.

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12-14-2012, 07:51 PM
  #113
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I think I read in an article about the NBA lockout that disclaimer of interest had very little to do with a deal getting done soon after. From what I understand the requirements for proving unfair labor practices are pretty high. The players lost their attempt to get a ruling like that in the NBA conflict. Also, from what I understand, it's likely that the lockout will be ruled legal.

It'll be interesting to see what happens. It's a change of pace from the sides pretending mediation might help.

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12-14-2012, 07:58 PM
  #114
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All I know is that if a court rules that the PA can decertify but their contracts are voided, you might not even see an orderly process from the league. The minute a ruling like that comes down, you see 30 offers for Sidney Crosby at like 2 PM on a Tuesday before the court clerk can even look up from his desk. You see Terry Pegula try to assemble the $500M roster in an afternoon.

That is to say, if the NHL thinks there's even a chance of that happening, they're putting the wheels in motion now to bind their owners somehow. They can't do a hell of lot in that case, because of anti-trust and all, but they have to try and put something creative into place to impose an orderly process.

Then it becomes a really interesting legal game of what can you put in place without substantively affecting labor law.

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12-14-2012, 07:58 PM
  #115
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Very strange, the league tries to negotiate directly with the players then a week later the league goes to court stating the players are represented by Fehr and are 100% behind their union. I don't know why but I bet Fehr wanted this outcome.

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12-14-2012, 08:00 PM
  #116
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All it takes is a NY court ruling that NHLPA decertifying (and/or everything close to it) is just a negotiating tactic and NHLPA is blown up.

And let's face it, NHLPA's "disclaimer of interest" is just a tactic, everybody here knows it.

If NHLPA goes forward and files for "disclaimer of interest", the season is over and even larger majority of people will blame the greedy PA for it. Public opinion is already against the players, despite the best efforts of many hockey journalist (whose sources are players and their agents) trying to argue it's the owners' fault.

Fehr is just out of his league. He won against weak MLB owners who were all making money, he just couldn't understand the fact that Bettman is a much stronger opponent than anything he has faced before.

NHLPA has already been crushed, NHL has already reached most of it's goals and Bettman is just waiting for to deal the killing blow that will cement his status as one of the best major league commissioners while Fehr's going down as the PA leader who took the biggest loss in pro sports history.

And make no mistake, in 1-3 years players will be asking "just exactly why did we lose a billion dollars while getting just about nothing in return?". At that point Uncle Don will retire, handing the reins to his personally chosen successor (his brother of all people, nepotism not seen since the days of Ancient Rome). And the PA is once again wondering who exactly is calling the shots among PA and why is that PA keeps choosing leaders who do nothing but harm PA's reputation and keeps wasting players' money.

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12-14-2012, 08:04 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Stix and Stones View Post
Very strange, the league tries to negotiate directly with the players then a week later the league goes to court stating the players are represented by Fehr and are 100% behind their union. I don't know why but I bet Fehr wanted this outcome.
Fehr wanted for a court to rule that their "disclaimer of interest" is just a sham, nothing but a negotitating tactic? Heh. I really don't think so.

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12-14-2012, 08:04 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Stix and Stones View Post
Very strange, the league tries to negotiate directly with the players then a week later the league goes to court stating the players are represented by Fehr and are 100% behind their union. I don't know why but I bet Fehr wanted this outcome.
I don't see what's inconsistent about that. They wanted to negotiate without Fehr in the room, but acknowledged that this didn't mean that the union had ceased to exist. I mean, hell, the fact that they wanted to negotiate at all implicitly relies on the fact that there's someone to negotiate with.

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12-14-2012, 08:10 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Pepper View Post
Fehr wanted for a court to rule that their "disclaimer of interest" is just a sham, nothing but a negotitating tactic? Heh. I really don't think so.
It's been about a month since people here, or was it on the radio that fans were speculating why Bettman didn't do what he just did? To strike first and get this infront of a favourable circuit. So why would Bettman wait until he was pushed or why would Fehr push him. Obviously Fehr wanted this at this time.

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12-14-2012, 08:12 PM
  #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stix and Stones View Post
It's been about a month since people here, or was it on the radio that fans were speculating why Bettman didn't do ust what he did? To strike first and get this infront of a a favourable circuit. So why would Bettman wait until he was pushed or why would Fehr push him. Obviously Fehr wanted this at this time.
Because Bettman wouldn't have been able to even get into court before the union did something. Period. Not even negotiable, or close.

There's this thing called "ripeness." What you're suggesting is that Bettman should have gone to court and asked them to rule about something that hadn't even happened, and you have no idea what it would look like even if it did (i.e., did the union negotiate in good faith from August-December, vote on offers, not tell the media every 5 seconds that decertification was their ultimate bargaining chip, and ultimately decide that they wanted to be an independent work force for some purpose other than to reunionize and get a better deal?). The court would throw that case out in a heartbeat. It would be akin to walking into court and saying, "if my neighbor were hypothetically to shoot me and he said it was in self defense but I said it wasn't and let's just presume for a minute that I was probably right, would you go ahead and foreclose to him his right of self-defense in the future, just on these imagined facts?" That's actually a pretty exact analogy to what you're suggesting.


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12-14-2012, 08:15 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by haseoke39 View Post
Because Bettman wouldn't have been able to even get into court before the union did something. Period. Not even negotiable, or close.
The PA didn't even 'do' anything, other than publicly authorizing a vote that hasn't taken place yet.

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12-14-2012, 08:16 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by Stix and Stones View Post
It's been about a month since people here, or was it on the radio that fans were speculating why Bettman didn't do what he just did? To strike first and get this infront of a favourable circuit. So why would Bettman wait until he was pushed or why would Fehr push him. Obviously Fehr wanted this at this time.
The league acted based on the actions of NHLPA.

NHLPA flinched, NHL saw that and went for the kill.

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12-14-2012, 08:17 PM
  #123
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Here's a quote from Gary Roberts, dean and professor at the Indiana University Law School-Indianapolis about NBPA's attempt to get a NLRB unfair labor practice ruling against the NBA owners last year.

"The [NBPA's] unfair labor practice complaint is extremely weak and lacks legal basis. … Labor law is absolutely 100-percent clear that strikes and lockouts are allowed without [an] impasse being reached. Players could have struck the day the [collective bargaining agreement] expired and the league exercised its right to lock out the players. And the union's argument that the owners somehow failed to bargain in good faith because they made extreme demands also flies in the face of clear labor law. The duty to bargain in good faith does not undermine the right of 'freedom of contract,' a principle that says that either side is entitled to take firm and unbending substantive positions. As long as the owners are willing to keep meeting and talking, they are meeting the duty to bargain in good faith whether or not they make extreme demands and do not budge off of them. So absent some smoking gun in which owners are proven to have been bargaining with no effort to seek an agreement (which I am fairly sure does not exist) the union has little hope of prevailing on this NLRB complaint. … And even if the NLRB made a finding for the union in this matter, I seriously doubt they could get a court to issue a Section 10(j) injunction to end the lockout. I would be positively shocked if it turns out otherwise."

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12-14-2012, 08:20 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by NJDevs26 View Post
The PA didn't even 'do' anything, other than publicly authorizing a vote that hasn't taken place yet.
The PA has indicated its intent, and that means that a court has enough information to make a ruling on what the legal significance is of them doing that at this time, and following this string of negotiations all fall. Even if if a court wouldn't rule on the case until a vote goes through, it's a matter of days. Nothing substantive is going to change about their intent in decertifying. You file the paperwork so you can pick the forum.

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12-14-2012, 08:27 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
Here's a quote from Gary Roberts, dean and professor at the Indiana University Law School-Indianapolis about NBPA's attempt to get a NLRB unfair labor practice ruling against the NBA owners last year.

"The [NBPA's] unfair labor practice complaint is extremely weak and lacks legal basis. … Labor law is absolutely 100-percent clear that strikes and lockouts are allowed without [an] impasse being reached. Players could have struck the day the [collective bargaining agreement] expired and the league exercised its right to lock out the players. And the union's argument that the owners somehow failed to bargain in good faith because they made extreme demands also flies in the face of clear labor law. The duty to bargain in good faith does not undermine the right of 'freedom of contract,' a principle that says that either side is entitled to take firm and unbending substantive positions. As long as the owners are willing to keep meeting and talking, they are meeting the duty to bargain in good faith whether or not they make extreme demands and do not budge off of them. So absent some smoking gun in which owners are proven to have been bargaining with no effort to seek an agreement (which I am fairly sure does not exist) the union has little hope of prevailing on this NLRB complaint. … And even if the NLRB made a finding for the union in this matter, I seriously doubt they could get a court to issue a Section 10(j) injunction to end the lockout. I would be positively shocked if it turns out otherwise."
Based on the NFL and NBA cases, I think the precedence is likely set that the courts will rule that the lockout is legal despite the PA disbanding. What seems to be up in the air is how effective an antitrust claim would be.

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