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NHLPA exec board asks players to empower PA dissolution; NHL files w/Fed court+NLRB

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12-14-2012, 11:52 PM
  #176
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It will be a tough go for the NHL to win the case they filed. It's not as easy as it looks to prove that a union is disingenuous with regards to waiving representation. In fact I would say that the NHL's filing is more disingenuous than if the players end up voting and disclaiming.

Hopefully they sort things out before either of these things take place, but if it doesn't, not much is going to come of it. They are simply going to cancel each other out in all likelyhood. The NHL will agree to drop it if the players agree to unionize again.

Just a big waste of time, IMO.

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12-15-2012, 12:02 AM
  #177
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Does this not



Go against what you are saying?
Not sure how that goes against what I'm saying. By the looks of it, I would say the league is trying to argue the same point that the NFL did. Whether the intentions behind the dissolution is relevant or not doesn't prevent the league from trying to make their own case as to why their intentions are relevant and why their actions shouldn't affect the legality of the lockout.

Maybe I'm interpreting the league claim incorrectly but I don't get any impression that it's trying to block the dissolution of the union.

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12-15-2012, 12:09 AM
  #178
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But how can a court rule on whether or not the players intentions today or in the future are a negotiating ploy? They are attempting to block one of the players legal recourses.

Note: I do not support either option. I am simply concerned that the league tried to pre-emptively strike against something that a) couldn't work, b) would likely have crushed the PA and c) might in and of itself be considered anti-trust (trying to prevent their employees from using their labour rights and further destroying the relationship).
And the players are apparently taking serious steps toward blocking one of the league's legal recourse in implementing a lockout. Tit for tat here.

Your argument was that the NHL is trying to get the courts to deny the validity of the PA's right to dissolve. I'm saying that the NHL is providing evidence to support their claims behind the reasons for the the PA disbanding solely for the purpose of protecting the legality of their lockout - that doesn't mean that the courts won't acknowledge that the PA is disbanded and that also doesn't prevent the players from filing antitrust claims. How the courts can determine intention isn't relevant to my point.

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12-15-2012, 12:44 AM
  #179
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Pretty good insight in this video on sportsnet.

http://t.co/cBe6e6Ho

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12-15-2012, 12:56 AM
  #180
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Pretty good insight in this video on sportsnet.

http://t.co/cBe6e6Ho
After listening to that it seems clear to me that Fehr is getting worked by Bettman. The NHLPA doesn't stand a chance, and the sooner the players realize that, the sooner we will have hockey.

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12-15-2012, 01:07 AM
  #181
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Not sure how that goes against what I'm saying. By the looks of it, I would say the league is trying to argue the same point that the NFL did. Whether the intentions behind the dissolution is relevant or not doesn't prevent the league from trying to make their own case as to why their intentions are relevant and why their actions shouldn't affect the legality of the lockout.

Maybe I'm interpreting the league claim incorrectly but I don't get any impression that it's trying to block the dissolution of the union.
I am confused myself, but someone brought up that passage when I talked about the players not using decertification/disclaimer for it's intended use (to get rid of unwanted leadership) and asking how the courts could possibly not come to that conclusion.
That passage does establish that the motivation driving the defendant (in that 1991 case) to seek decertification did not matter to the NLRB then, so it shouldn't this time around either.

There may be a critical distinction I am not seeing here...

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12-15-2012, 01:21 AM
  #182
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Nice,

This lockout needed more lawyers to have any chance of ending.

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12-15-2012, 01:30 AM
  #183
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After listening to that it seems clear to me that Fehr is getting worked by Bettman. The NHLPA doesn't stand a chance, and the sooner the players realize that, the sooner we will have hockey.
One problem the NHL has is that collective bargaining is fundamentally the right of the employees, not that of the employer(s).

Employees have the right to unionize, whether an employer likes that or not. An employer does not have the option to refuse to collectively bargain with a properly constituted union.

Ultimately, if employees have the right to unionize, they also have the right to de-unionize. Labour laws don't force empoyees to collectively bargain. If they really want to de-unionize, the employees have that right as well.

The issue the NHL is trying to litigate is whether the NHLPA is genuinely de-unionizing or not. I wouldn't hazard a guess on who wins that. However, if the union pushes hard enough that it is genuinely dissolving (to the point that it actually dissolves, which is its right to do), then neither the NHL nor the courts can stop that and the NHL would find itself without a collective-bargaining partner.

No picnic for the players, nor the owners: no draft, no cap, no floor, no this and no that. Open market on players and free agency galore. Good for some and not good for others; both players and owners alike.

It would be a whole new and very unpredictable world for both sides.

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12-15-2012, 01:50 AM
  #184
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Originally Posted by Mork View Post
One problem the NHL has is that collective bargaining is fundamentally the right of the employees, not that of the employer(s).

Employees have the right to unionize, whether an employer likes that or not. An employer does not have the option to refuse to collectively bargain with a properly constituted union.

Ultimately, if employees have the right to unionize, they also have the right to de-unionize. Labour laws don't force empoyees to collectively bargain. If they really want to de-unionize, the employees have that right as well.

The issue the NHL is trying to litigate is whether the NHLPA is genuinely de-unionizing or not. I wouldn't hazard a guess on who wins that. However, if the union pushes hard enough that it is genuinely dissolving (to the point that it actually dissolves, which is its right to do), then neither the NHL nor the courts can stop that and the NHL would find itself without a collective-bargaining partner.

No picnic for the players, nor the owners: no draft, no cap, no floor, no this and no that. Open market on players and free agency galore. Good for some and not good for others; both players and owners alike.

It would be a whole new and very unpredictable world for both sides.
yes, but I can't help wonder what the penalties are for bargaining in bad faith. The document (posted on sportsnet) outlines some 40 specific players, including the union, as defendants of the class action suit. If the NHL is successful in showing that the NHLPA is using desertification as a bargaining tactic, which looks pretty damn promising considering the quotes from the players that the NHL has provided in the lawsuit (maybe this is why Bettman keeps a muzzle on the owners), then what does the NHLPA and more importantly the individual players stand to lose?

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12-15-2012, 01:55 AM
  #185
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If Fehr took MLB to the cleaners in court, he can do the same with the NHL.

Might take some time, though. Kind of the NHL's worst case scenario though, Fehr is pretty much calling all the shots at this point.

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12-15-2012, 01:59 AM
  #186
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If Fehr took MLB to the cleaners in court, he can do the same with the NHL.

Might take some time, though. Kind of the NHL's worst case scenario though, Fehr is pretty much calling all the shots at this point.
The latest offer the NHLPA submitted to the NHL (the one that came when the NHL really just wanted yes/no on their own offer) wasn't exactly taking the NHL to the cleaners. Fehr and the players won't come close to winning this one, no matter how they spin it in the end after dragging it out and losing more salaries.

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12-15-2012, 02:01 AM
  #187
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If Fehr took MLB to the cleaners in court, he can do the same with the NHL.

Might take some time, though. Kind of the NHL's worst case scenario though, Fehr is pretty much calling all the shots at this point.
Not really. Depends on whether they're actually planning on decertifying. I could see the courts calling the DOI (or whatever it is when the union stops representing the players) what it is - a negotiating tactic. However if the players actually took a vote to decertify, then I don't see how the courts could do much about it.

But do the players really want to go down that road? I would suspect not.

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12-15-2012, 02:02 AM
  #188
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As soon as the union decertifies watch the owners turn on each other like a pack of dogs. Without set guidelines agents are going to have a field day with these guys. Bettman seems pretty damn nervous about that.

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12-15-2012, 02:14 AM
  #189
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yes, but I can't help wonder what the penalties are for bargaining in bad faith. The document (posted on sportsnet) outlines some 40 specific players, including the union, as defendants of the class action suit. If the NHL is successful in showing that the NHLPA is using desertification as a bargaining tactic, which looks pretty damn promising considering the quotes from the players that the NHL has provided in the lawsuit (maybe this is why Bettman keeps a muzzle on the owners), then what does the NHLPA and more importantly the individual players stand to lose?

You cannot force employees to remain in a union.

The only question is if the players ~really~ want to decertify IF the NHL refuses to budge. If they have the stomach for it, the NHL is in big trouble, and heck, the players are entering uncharted waters as well.

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12-15-2012, 02:20 AM
  #190
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As soon as the union decertifies watch the owners turn on each other like a pack of dogs. Without set guidelines agents are going to have a field day with these guys. Bettman seems pretty damn nervous about that.
Yup,

Crosby will look nice in blue and white.

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12-15-2012, 02:23 AM
  #191
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You cannot force employees to remain in a union.

The only question is if the players ~really~ want to decertify IF the NHL refuses to budge. If they have the stomach for it, the NHL is in big trouble, and heck, the players are entering uncharted waters as well.
Ok, so are you answering my question then? Is there no repercussion for being found guilty of bargaining in bad faith? Or are you saying that the NHL's lawsuit is frivolous?

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12-15-2012, 02:42 AM
  #192
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Ok, so are you answering my question then? Is there no repercussion for being found guilty of bargaining in bad faith? Or are you saying that the NHL's lawsuit is frivolous?
It seems that what the NHL is trying to do is prevent the lockout from being lifted by the courts thus preventing the players of suing the NHL under antitrust laws.
If the court agrees with the NHL then the players might be completely screwed: even if they go full decertification (which would take a while) it wouldn't allow the players to do much.

This is if the court agrees with the NHL on everything, which is unlikely.
The court might agree with the NHL on a few of the counts. When the NFL did it the courts sided with the NFL on a few counts but refused to address the antitrust issue (it was the correct thing to do) so the NFLPA could have decertified and have players individually sue the teams/league.

However it seems the NHL has asked for more protection than what the NBA asked for when they filed their own lawsuit against the NBAPA and has submitted as evidence tweets and articles that reinforce it's arguments. This could make for a something completely unexpected.

So the PA stands to lose all leverage, but history indicates that this scenario is unlikely.

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12-15-2012, 03:06 AM
  #193
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Not really. Depends on whether they're actually planning on decertifying. I could see the courts calling the DOI (or whatever it is when the union stops representing the players) what it is - a negotiating tactic. However if the players actually took a vote to decertify, then I don't see how the courts could do much about it.

But do the players really want to go down that road? I would suspect not.
From what I'm seeing, the moderates ran the show over the last few weeks. Now the hardliners are stepping in.

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12-15-2012, 03:27 AM
  #194
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If the NHL is this flawed and this far apart, they should just disband the league and start over again.

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12-15-2012, 03:52 AM
  #195
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As soon as the union decertifies watch the owners turn on each other like a pack of dogs. Without set guidelines agents are going to have a field day with these guys. Bettman seems pretty damn nervous about that.
If that happens, several NHL franchises will fold in short order, taking with them a bunch of NHL players' jobs with them. A chaotic league without a defined system for controlling salaries, player movement and revenue sharing will be unsustainable for several markets and many players. Ultimately, it would result in a multi-tiered system for franchises and players.

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12-15-2012, 03:53 AM
  #196
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There's always that Devellano interview where he talks about unwritten rules and that the owners will show the cattle they call the shots, not the other way around.
He is not an owner nor does he fill his owners slot (because the Wings don't have one) on the BOG. Now they could try and make him a witness in court and hope he has had substantial talks with Ilitch and prove some point. But outside of that he is just a management guy voicing an opinion not to the same degree as a member of the process. I think that is a stretch to say his comments can be used as anything valid. I could be wrong, but I am guessing that is the case the NHL would make. He doesn't vote and he isn't a part of the final say process. That is much different than being an actual NHLPA member that has said things about being a group and thinking as one and holds an actual vote. Not only that he was fined and punished, some would say for talking out. They could argue just as well in open court that yes it was a policy but also because what he said simply wasn't true of how ownership feels.


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12-15-2012, 03:57 AM
  #197
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If that happens, several NHL franchises will fold in short order, taking with them a bunch of NHL players' jobs with them. A chaotic league without a defined system for controlling salaries, player movement and revenue sharing will be unsustainable for several markets and many players. Ultimately, it would result in a multi-tiered system for franchises and players.
Not true Phoenix and Florida can just ice teams with a payroll of 10 million bucks and take city money. Also would love to see the players faces when teams told them we buy X amount of sticks for you a year in your contract, you stay at a Holiday Inn and fly in coach from city to city. Sure lots of players wouldn't do it, but 23 probably will.

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12-15-2012, 04:08 AM
  #198
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I do wonder what happens with the Russian guys that have been stating publically they would stay in Russia if the contracts actually get thrown out. Up until now they could play the hero angle by saying it and getting all the credit while not actually probably really believing that it would ever truly be an option. A bunch of pressure will be brought on them to stick to their word on that.

While some players would create a bidding war I would actually expect the league salary figures to come in with a lower intake for the PA as a whole. Some teams will spend next to nothing and the middle class players will be wiped out as the star players push teams to the limit. It would be fun to watch though. Also how angry would you be if you're say Nashville, you already paid Weber 14 million, I could see a lot of angry court cases where teams go back after signing bonuses. Now the owners will have killed the contracts in some sense, but a lot of bonuses are forced to be returned in other sports. I wonder how ugly that would get in court and previous to this teams have been mostly successful in get partial money back if not the whole thing.

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12-15-2012, 04:08 AM
  #199
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It will be a tough go for the NHL to win the case they filed. It's not as easy as it looks to prove that a union is disingenuous with regards to waiving representation. In fact I would say that the NHL's filing is more disingenuous than if the players end up voting and disclaiming.

Hopefully they sort things out before either of these things take place, but if it doesn't, not much is going to come of it. They are simply going to cancel each other out in all likelyhood. The NHL will agree to drop it if the players agree to unionize again.

Just a big waste of time, IMO.
But isn't it relevant that the NHLPA is proposing a vote to authorize the NHLPA to disclaim interest in bargaining? That is different from going ahead and disclaiming interest. Having the authorization, along with evidence that the authorization to disclaim interest is meant to be a bargaining tool, would make further negotiations untenable. Fish or cut bait.

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12-15-2012, 04:24 AM
  #200
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If that happens, several NHL franchises will fold in short order, taking with them a bunch of NHL players' jobs with them. A chaotic league without a defined system for controlling salaries, player movement and revenue sharing will be unsustainable for several markets and many players. Ultimately, it would result in a multi-tiered system for franchises and players.
That has not tended to, in the long run, hurt the players. European soccer is like that and it has been a boon in terms of compensation for the players.

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