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greater goalscorer: Howe vs Bo.Hull vs Bossy vs Br.Hull vs Bure

View Poll Results: greater goalscorer
Howe 1 1.33%
Bobby 42 56.00%
Bossy 22 29.33%
Brett 4 5.33%
Bure 6 8.00%
Voters: 75. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
12-16-2012, 10:33 PM
  #51
Hardyvan123
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Originally Posted by Dark Shadows View Post
Those two were a much different case. ill just post a quote someone made that I completely agree with, which separated them from mere superstars.
What Trottier says is true...for parts of both players careers when they were surrounded by other top talent.

For Mario especially, his plus minus outside of his absolute peak doesn't support the notion that their controlling the puck and putting up points made up for their lack of 2 way play.

Same thing for Wayne post trade from the Oilers.

Perhaps the R-on and R-off numbers reflect this as well.

Quote:
Errr, Bobby Hull especially Gordie Howe were both very good defensively. Furthermore Mike Bossy was good defensively.
They are more the exceptions than the rule aren't they?

Also the level of effort and impact on any players offensive game to play defense was quite different in the 50-60's than say in the clutch and grab era and beyond and would have some different affects as well.

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12-17-2012, 01:27 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
What Trottier says is true...for parts of both players careers when they were surrounded by other top talent.

For Mario especially, his plus minus outside of his absolute peak doesn't support the notion that their controlling the puck and putting up points made up for their lack of 2 way play.

Same thing for Wayne post trade from the Oilers.

Perhaps the R-on and R-off numbers reflect this as well.



They are more the exceptions than the rule aren't they?

Also the level of effort and impact on any players offensive game to play defense was quite different in the 50-60's than say in the clutch and grab era and beyond and would have some different affects as well.
How do you mean?

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12-17-2012, 03:21 AM
  #53
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OP doesn't seem to ask for greatest scorer ever, but best of this group.

Bossy, Bobby Hull, Brett Hull, Gordie Howe...Selšnne, err I mean Bure.

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12-17-2012, 06:28 AM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
What Trottier says is true...for parts of both players careers when they were surrounded by other top talent.

For Mario especially, his plus minus outside of his absolute peak doesn't support the notion that their controlling the puck and putting up points made up for their lack of 2 way play.

Same thing for Wayne post trade from the Oilers.

Perhaps the R-on and R-off numbers reflect this as well.
Strongly disagree

Quote:
They are more the exceptions than the rule aren't they?

Also the level of effort and impact on any players offensive game to play defense was quite different in the 50-60's than say in the clutch and grab era and beyond and would have some different affects as well.
Uh yeah, but they are Bure's competition in this thread, and since he did nothing but figure 8's at center ice waiting for cherries to pick while they actually played the game and were a much more of factor on the ice while scoring those goals

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12-17-2012, 07:29 AM
  #55
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How do you mean?
Longer shifts in the 50-60's and different tpyes of defenses and team strategies.

The bottom line is that coaching has a more direct impact on the game play and defensive responsibilities in general in the last 20 years than between 50-70.

It has an affect, how much is hard to determine though.

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12-17-2012, 07:30 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Dark Shadows View Post
Strongly disagree
You might disagree but the numbers clearly show this.



Quote:
Uh yeah, but they are Bure's competition in this thread, and since he did nothing but figure 8's at center ice waiting for cherries to pick while they actually played the game and were a much more of factor on the ice while scoring those goals
Fair enough, Bure is by far the biggest cherry picker of the 5 guys here.

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12-17-2012, 08:06 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
One things for sure and that's that the talent were more contracted during the O6 and therefore it was harder to score back then.
That being said, i voted on Bure first becouse he was such a stellar solitary fishing there in his offensive zone. Playing under Bossys circumstances he would have slaughtered that guys goal totals; Brett only got into this vote at all becouse of Adam Oates; Bobby was healthy all along and had Mikita, while Howe had Lindsay and Delvecchio. It was true the thing i once read on the back of a hockeycard that Bure could have scored 70 with a good playmaker by his side, in the dead puck era.
Bure would need a great passing defenceman... not a great centre to really compliment his scoring. No way he plays like he did with Trottier and Gilles and Arbour.

Brett did a ton without Oates and Hull and Mikita mostly played on separate lines.

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12-17-2012, 08:36 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Fair enough, Bure is by far the biggest cherry picker of the 5 guys here.
When Brett Hull was an elite goal scorer, I really don't think he was any better defensively than Bure. Brett got better in Dallas, but he wasn't putting up the numbers by that point.

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12-17-2012, 09:12 AM
  #59
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Bobby
Bossy
Bure
Brett
Howe

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12-17-2012, 11:59 AM
  #60
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Who did Hull face who was as good as the Rocket at scoring goals and scoring goals alone? Howe also faced prime Geoffrion and Ted Lindsay. For Hull, I see aging Beliveau and Frank Mahovlich who was stiffled in Toronto, etc. Part of the reason Bobby Hull led the league by such eye opening margins was because he was awesome, but part of the reason was that the league was lacking elite goal scorers in the early 60s.

I agree that the overall league depth was much better in the 60s than the early 50s, but I'm talking about goal scoring (not point production) and only at the high end.

This is nothing against Bobby Hull either, I did vote him in this poll after all. But the competition makes him look farther ahead of Howe than he really was, I think.
You're right, the competition was pretty equal for goal-scoring, as opposed to point production. Mainly, Hull had to always face Howe, while Howe had a whole decade without Hull. I still give the edge to Hull, but it's a lot closer than I expected when I look at the competition and adjusted goal numbers.

I really don't understand all the love for Bure, as great of a goal scorer as he was.

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12-17-2012, 12:51 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Dark Shadows View Post
As far as goal scoring goes? Yes in some years. When comparing raw 80's totals, you need to look at several of Bobby's finishes and imagine them as 70-85 goal seasons.
so we need to look at some adjusted stats to prove you right?

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12-17-2012, 12:57 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
I really don't understand all the love for Bure, as great of a goal scorer as he was.
i believe he is 4th all time in goals per game average (might be 5th, have to check), so he wasnt bad lol. and he put up big numbers in the "dead puck era"

i still pick Bossy. #1 all time in goals per game average, and he was consistent his entire career. you KNEW a healthy bossy would score you at least 50 goals a year. this is why i dont like the Bobby Hull argument. his first 2 seasons were nothing special, and it took him a good 4-5 seasons to become the goal scorer he was. Bossy, from day one until he retired, put up numbers.

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12-17-2012, 01:02 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by jack mullet View Post
i believe he is 4th all time in goals per game average (might be 5th, have to check), so he wasnt bad lol. and he put up big numbers in the "dead puck era"

i still pick Bossy. #1 all time in goals per game average, and he was consistent his entire career. you KNEW a healthy bossy would score you at least 50 goals a year. this is why i dont like the Bobby Hull argument. his first 2 seasons were nothing special, and it took him a good 4-5 seasons to become the goal scorer he was. Bossy, from day one until he retired, put up numbers.
Players with short, injury-plagued careers often have high per-game averages. Bure just didn't have enough excellent years, although there is no definition given for "greatest goal scorer" (peak/prime/career). Bossy played in such a high scoring era, when non-superstars scored 50 goals, so it take some of the luster off what's still a great accomplishment. He also played for a dynasty, with Trottier & Potvin, in a league that usually had a lot of disparity.

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12-17-2012, 01:03 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
You're right, the competition was pretty equal for goal-scoring, as opposed to point production. Mainly, Hull had to always face Howe, while Howe had a whole decade without Hull. I still give the edge to Hull, but it's a lot closer than I expected when I look at the competition and adjusted goal numbers.

I really don't understand all the love for Bure, as great of a goal scorer as he was.
Hull faced Howe, but I really don't think it was prime Howe. Howe, Richard, and Geoffrion were all in their goalscoring primes at the same time and there was overlap with Bathgate, as well.

And yeah, I honestly don't know if I'd vote Bure over Ovechkin as a goal scorer alone.

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12-17-2012, 01:05 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by jack mullet View Post
i believe he is 4th all time in goals per game average (might be 5th, have to check), so he wasnt bad lol. and he put up big numbers in the "dead puck era"

i still pick Bossy. #1 all time in goals per game average, and he was consistent his entire career. you KNEW a healthy bossy would score you at least 50 goals a year. this is why i dont like the Bobby Hull argument. his first 2 seasons were nothing special, and it took him a good 4-5 seasons to become the goal scorer he was. Bossy, from day one until he retired, put up numbers.
First, Mike Bossy was 21 in his first NHL season, while Bobby Hull was only 19, so they were the same age when they each had their breakout seasons.

Second, Bobby Hull was just as consistent and for longer. 13 straight seasons as a Top 6 goal scorer (10 of those Top 3) and the only reason that stopped was because he went to the WHA...he was 2nd in goals the season before he left.

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12-17-2012, 01:27 PM
  #66
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I would take Gordie Howe if I had to take a player and indicate him that he has to score goals.In a way Gordie Howe was almost as good as Bobby Hull but he did so much more on the ice that he didn't only focused on goalscoring , if he did I think he'll be the best of the bunch.

Of course this list is pretty random , as my best goalscorer remains Mario Lemieux and Gretzky is close.

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12-17-2012, 01:57 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by jack mullet View Post
so we need to look at some adjusted stats to prove you right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jack mullet View Post
i believe he is 4th all time in goals per game average (might be 5th, have to check), so he wasnt bad lol. and he put up big numbers in the "dead puck era"

i still pick Bossy. #1 all time in goals per game average, and he was consistent his entire career. you KNEW a healthy bossy would score you at least 50 goals a year. this is why i dont like the Bobby Hull argument. his first 2 seasons were nothing special, and it took him a good 4-5 seasons to become the goal scorer he was. Bossy, from day one until he retired, put up numbers.
Better than unadjusted stats. Unless you want to ignore the fact that 39 goals in the early 60's was more impressive than 50 in the 80's. Not only did they only play 70 games, but they routinely faced tougher defensive and offensive competition every game in a league that was much harder to score in

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Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
Players with short, injury-plagued careers often have high per-game averages. Bure just didn't have enough excellent years, although there is no definition given for "greatest goal scorer" (peak/prime/career). Bossy played in such a high scoring era, when non-superstars scored 50 goals, so it take some of the luster off what's still a great accomplishment. He also played for a dynasty, with Trottier & Potvin, in a league that usually had a lot of disparity.
Exactly

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12-17-2012, 08:21 PM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
Players with short, injury-plagued careers often have high per-game averages. Bure just didn't have enough excellent years, although there is no definition given for "greatest goal scorer" (peak/prime/career). Bossy played in such a high scoring era, when non-superstars scored 50 goals, so it take some of the luster off what's still a great accomplishment. He also played for a dynasty, with Trottier & Potvin, in a league that usually had a lot of disparity.
some players don't need to have enough excellent years in order to know what they brought to the table. a healthy Bure, even playing on a GARBAGE Florida Panthers team during the height of the defensive era, still nearly scored 60 goals in back to back seasons.

Bossy played in a high scoring era, yes, but in his short career, here is how he finished each year in the goal scoring race, not including his final season.
2
1
5 (tied with Gretzky)
1
2 (Gretzky scored 92)
3
7 (only played 67 games)
3
2

as you can see, consistent. not only in his personal stats, but always at the top of the league. true, bobby hull lead the league in goals more, but his numbers were not as consistent from season to season.

and spare me the "he played with trottier & potvin" argument, you can use that argument with Gretzky, Lemieux, Roy, Bourque, Orr.......Bobby Hull...but if you do use that argument, then i counter with Bobby using a curved stick when most other didn't.

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12-17-2012, 08:24 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Dark Shadows View Post
Better than unadjusted stats. Unless you want to ignore the fact that 39 goals in the early 60's was more impressive than 50 in the 80's. Not only did they only play 70 games, but they routinely faced tougher defensive and offensive competition every game in a league that was much harder to score in
very subjective.

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12-17-2012, 08:28 PM
  #70
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very subjective.
There is a reason the 50's were a low scoring era, no?

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12-17-2012, 08:41 PM
  #71
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12-17-2012, 09:45 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by jack mullet View Post
some players don't need to have enough excellent years in order to know what they brought to the table. a healthy Bure, even playing on a GARBAGE Florida Panthers team during the height of the defensive era, still nearly scored 60 goals in back to back seasons.

Bossy played in a high scoring era, yes, but in his short career, here is how he finished each year in the goal scoring race, not including his final season.
2
1
5 (tied with Gretzky)
1
2 (Gretzky scored 92)
3
7 (only played 67 games)
3
2

as you can see, consistent. not only in his personal stats, but always at the top of the league. true, bobby hull lead the league in goals more, but his numbers were not as consistent from season to season.

and spare me the "he played with trottier & potvin" argument, you can use that argument with Gretzky, Lemieux, Roy, Bourque, Orr.......Bobby Hull...but if you do use that argument, then i counter with Bobby using a curved stick when most other didn't.
Even if you eliminate Gretzky and Kurri(Assuming you think Kurri's goalscoring was Gretzky driven), Bobby hull's goal scoring finishes are still well ahead of Bossy's.

Not only that, but he won several of his goal scoring titles by huge margins over the #2 guy

Quote:
Originally Posted by jack mullet View Post
very subjective.
Not at all. Just cold hard facts. The best players in the league were condensed into 6 teams. The best goaltenders, defensemen and forwards. In a league that focused much more on defensive Hockey and the players far more familiar with each others abilities.

The 50's and 60's were a much lower scoring era for a reason, while the 80's routinely had many more teams giving up more goals a year than the expansion California golden seals on their worst year because focus had shifted to offensive hockey.

Gordie Howe's best statistical season by raw numbers was 68-69, when he scored 103 points(The league was opening up and becoming more offensive), yet any of us who saw him play would tell you he was a far better player in the 50's and early 60's than he was at that point and that his numbers merely look better because of the shift in how the game was played

As huge a Bossy supporter as I am(I often feel he is very underrated), he is not the greatest goalscorer of all time. Definitely top 5 in my books.

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12-18-2012, 10:26 AM
  #73
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It was Bossy or Espocito, IMHO.

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12-18-2012, 07:57 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by jack mullet View Post
some players don't need to have enough excellent years in order to know what they brought to the table. a healthy Bure, even playing on a GARBAGE Florida Panthers team during the height of the defensive era, still nearly scored 60 goals in back to back seasons.

Bossy played in a high scoring era, yes, but in his short career, here is how he finished each year in the goal scoring race, not including his final season.
2
1
5 (tied with Gretzky)
1
2 (Gretzky scored 92)
3
7 (only played 67 games)
3
2

as you can see, consistent. not only in his personal stats, but always at the top of the league. true, bobby hull lead the league in goals more, but his numbers were not as consistent from season to season.

and spare me the "he played with trottier & potvin" argument, you can use that argument with Gretzky, Lemieux, Roy, Bourque, Orr.......Bobby Hull...but if you do use that argument, then i counter with Bobby using a curved stick when most other didn't.
Bossy had great numbers and finishes but nobody from Eruope was plying in the NHL then.

I posted Bure's finishes and all of the guy from Europe and the States that he had to compete agasint as well.

Bossy has more consistency, due to better health ironically, and playoff numbers to make a better overall career but it's alot closer than some people might think here.

Of course there is no way to tell exactly how thsoe guys from Europe do in their entire careers agasint Bossy but we saw how the European explosion littered the top 10 in goal scoring in the 90's when the top players were aloowed to come over.

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12-18-2012, 08:07 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Dark Shadows View Post
Even if you eliminate Gretzky and Kurri(Assuming you think Kurri's goalscoring was Gretzky driven), Bobby hull's goal scoring finishes are still well ahead of Bossy's.

Not only that, but he won several of his goal scoring titles by huge margins over the #2 guy.
Fully agree with you here.

Bobby has the longevity here to top the poll which is he doing easily



Quote:
Not at all. Just cold hard facts. The best players in the league were condensed into 6 teams. The best goaltenders, defensemen and forwards. In a league that focused much more on defensive Hockey and the players far more familiar with each others abilities.

The 50's and 60's were a much lower scoring era for a reason, while the 80's routinely had many more teams giving up more goals a year than the expansion California golden seals on their worst year because focus had shifted to offensive hockey.

Gordie Howe's best statistical season by raw numbers was 68-69, when he scored 103 points(The league was opening up and becoming more offensive), yet any of us who saw him play would tell you he was a far better player in the 50's and early 60's than he was at that point and that his numbers merely look better because of the shift in how the game was played

As huge a Bossy supporter as I am(I often feel he is very underrated), he is not the greatest goalscorer of all time. Definitely top 5 in my books.
Not exactly all facts, it might account for the lower scoring era but there are probably other factors as well.

Like Mullet says it's a bit subjective and for all the talk of the glory years of the 06 period, it's a self contained argument that is backed by subjective points and there is plenty of evidence to suggest that it may not be all that it made out to be, esecially in the earlier time period.

There might be a stronger argument for the 60's than the 50's, based on population growth, but again it's pretty subjective.

Part of the problem, IMO, is that there is too much focus on the stars of the 50's and 60's and not enough anylsis or information on all players in the league to really make the assertion that you are doing above.

But that's a huge question to be tackled and looked at another day.

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