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[NYM/TOR] Dickey/Thole/Nickeas for D'Arnaud/Syndergaard/Buck/Becerra (done deal)

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Old
12-18-2012, 11:31 AM
  #351
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Originally Posted by Jonathan. View Post
You guys have completely missed the part where Sandy Alderson turned Mike Nickeas into a ****ing prospect. That is the best GM'ing I have ever seen in my entire life.
that and the black hole in the lineup known as Thole is gone as well.

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12-18-2012, 11:32 AM
  #352
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Originally Posted by Jonathan. View Post
It doesn't matter. We traded the worst player in the majors for a decent prospect. He can't even catch Dickey well.
And?

He'll be in AAA, why do I care? He's an emergency option in case of injury. If Arencibia gets hurt, AA will acquire a stop gap like he did last year with Torrealba.

A 17 year old SS is useless to us right now. We needed a catcher in Buffalo, and got one. This portion of the deal is insignificant, nobody cares.

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12-18-2012, 11:38 AM
  #353
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Originally Posted by sparxx87 View Post
And?

He'll be in AAA, why do I care? He's an emergency option in case of injury. If Arencibia gets hurt, AA will acquire a stop gap like he did last year with Torrealba.

A 17 year old SS is useless to us right now. We needed a catcher in Buffalo, and got one. This portion of the deal is insignificant, nobody cares.
Nickeas sucks. He has the trade value of a piece of lint. useless to you guys now? probably. Doesnt change the fact how terrible he is.

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12-18-2012, 12:10 PM
  #354
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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
Nickeas sucks. He has the trade value of a piece of lint. useless to you guys now? probably. Doesnt change the fact how terrible he is.
John Buck, your current catcher, hit below .200 last year.. I'm not sure why you're concerned with who the Jays AAA catcher will be?

I don't care if he sucks as a major league catcher, he isn't a major league catcher on the Jays..

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12-18-2012, 12:10 PM
  #355
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sparxx87 View Post
And?

He'll be in AAA, why do I care? He's an emergency option in case of injury. If Arencibia gets hurt, AA will acquire a stop gap like he did last year with Torrealba.

A 17 year old SS is useless to us right now. We needed a catcher in Buffalo, and got one. This portion of the deal is insignificant, nobody cares.
An emergency option could've been found for free as a free agent. You don't trade even a marginal prospect (and this kid seems to have very high potential but a very high bust rate) for someone of the "caliber" of Nickeas.

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12-18-2012, 12:11 PM
  #356
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sparxx87 View Post
John Buck, your current catcher, hit below .200 last year.. I'm not sure why you're concerned with who the Jays AAA catcher will be?

I don't care if he sucks as a major league catcher, he isn't a major league catcher on the Jays..
Woosh. Keep missing the point.

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12-18-2012, 12:16 PM
  #357
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Originally Posted by Jonathan. View Post
An emergency option could've been found for free as a free agent. You don't trade even a marginal prospect (and this kid seems to have very high potential but a very high bust rate) for someone of the "caliber" of Nickeas.
I don't trade anyone, I'm not an MLB exec... But AA is, and he's constructed arguably the best team in the best division in baseball...

I'll trust him ahead of some fan boy on a hockey forum.. No offense.

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12-18-2012, 12:28 PM
  #358
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sparxx87 View Post
I don't trade anyone, I'm not an MLB exec... But AA is, and he's constructed arguably the best team in the best division in baseball...

I'll trust him ahead of some fan boy on a hockey forum.. No offense.
You'll trust AA for trading for the worst player in major league baseball (and that is not hyperbole)? Look, you can even look at the stats and know how absurd that is. Nickeas is not even a good enough player to use for emergency. At least not something you TRADE for.

If anything, SA used some Jedi mind control to make AA take him. His subtraction actually makes the Met organization better and makes the Jays organization slightly weaker. He's that bad. Come back to me when you've actually seen him *shudder* play and let me know how you feel. Until then, ignorance is bliss as they say.

The initial return made Mets fans giddy enough. To get rid of the putrid awfulness that is Nickeas (and actually get something in return) makes us hysterical with laughter.

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12-18-2012, 12:57 PM
  #359
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Originally Posted by sparxx87 View Post
John Buck, your current catcher, hit below .200 last year.. I'm not sure why you're concerned with who the Jays AAA catcher will be?

I don't care if he sucks as a major league catcher, he isn't a major league catcher on the Jays..
I am not disputing that Buck isnt a very good hitter. But hes a vet who will work with the kids who will likely fill out at least 3/5 of the Mets rotation.
On a team that will likely be pretty bad record wise this year I dont think the Mets are concerned with Buck's batting average.
Having Buck around D'Arnaud will be good for the kid as well. he will be valuable to have around when D'Arnaud is ML ready. The Mets didnt get Buck included in the trade for his stats.

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12-18-2012, 01:13 PM
  #360
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Originally Posted by Jonathan. View Post
You'll trust AA for trading for the worst player in major league baseball (and that is not hyperbole)? Look, you can even look at the stats and know how absurd that is. Nickeas is not even a good enough player to use for emergency. At least not something you TRADE for.

If anything, SA used some Jedi mind control to make AA take him. His subtraction actually makes the Met organization better and makes the Jays organization slightly weaker. He's that bad. Come back to me when you've actually seen him *shudder* play and let me know how you feel. Until then, ignorance is bliss as they say.

The initial return made Mets fans giddy enough. To get rid of the putrid awfulness that is Nickeas (and actually get something in return) makes us hysterical with laughter.
He's not a major league catcher! Just because the Mets were weak at catcher and gave him a job there, doesn't mean he belongs there.

If injuries arise, he'll buy a few days for AA to acquire a stop gap like he did with Torrealba last year.

Jedi mind trick? AA sent John Buck, the backup catcher, to offset the salary of the Cy Young award winning pitcher he just acquired?

I'm glad to hear Mets fans are 'giddy' ... Both fan bases are. The Jays have had a top farm system loaded with prospects for a few years now. Fans are happy to see some of them parlayed into talent that will help with a run today... 2 trades have taken them from mediocrity to the favorite in the AL East.. Nobody freakin cares about a depth catcher who we'll likely never see or hear about.

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12-18-2012, 01:20 PM
  #361
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan. View Post
You'll trust AA for trading for the worst player in major league baseball (and that is not hyperbole)? Look, you can even look at the stats and know how absurd that is. Nickeas is not even a good enough player to use for emergency. At least not something you TRADE for.

If anything, SA used some Jedi mind control to make AA take him. His subtraction actually makes the Met organization better and makes the Jays organization slightly weaker. He's that bad. Come back to me when you've actually seen him *shudder* play and let me know how you feel. Until then, ignorance is bliss as they say.

The initial return made Mets fans giddy enough. To get rid of the putrid awfulness that is Nickeas (and actually get something in return) makes us hysterical with laughter.
You don't think Jays fans are 'hysterical with laughter' for getting last years NL Cy Young winner and then signing him to an extension for less than he wanted with the Mets?

So what if Nickeas sucks? We need catchers capable of catching a knuckleball that have experience doing so. Both of your ex catchers will be our backups.

If Nickeas doesn't work out we'll waive him and pick up another catcher , just like we have done already several times this off season with Whiteside and Wilson.

In the end you needed prospects and we need a pitcher, theres no sense going over scrubs and backup players and thinking you win the trade because of that.

We won't know who wins the trade until 2015 or 2016, when Dickeys contract is done and both of your prospects have made it to the majors.

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Old
12-18-2012, 01:45 PM
  #362
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I'm pretty sure Nickeas was only included so the Jays have an extra catcher who they know can handle the knuckleball.

How do we know Sandy got a prospect because he included him? I highly doubt thats the case. He was always getting the same prospects, Nickeas was merely a throw in.

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12-18-2012, 01:49 PM
  #363
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Toronto gets the reigning Cy Young winner.

They're the winners until the prospects they gave up can show they are capable MLB players.

Not high on Syndergaard at all. Don't think he'll be anything special at all.

D'Arnaud has some serious medical red flags, even going back with the Phillies. He has talent, but has only played more than 100 games in 2 of 5 professional seasons.

Love this deal for the Jays.

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12-18-2012, 02:25 PM
  #364
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Originally Posted by Fire Sather View Post
I'm pretty sure Nickeas was only included so the Jays have an extra catcher who they know can handle the knuckleball.

How do we know Sandy got a prospect because he included him? I highly doubt thats the case. He was always getting the same prospects, Nickeas was merely a throw in.
Thole was the one that was handling dickey.

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12-18-2012, 02:30 PM
  #365
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Originally Posted by LEAFANFORLIFE23 View Post
and made the finals
After the team they were playing lost any ability to hit and their Hall of Fame shortstop. Then they got humiliated in the World Series. They were also this close to losing to the A's. Without the best pitcher in baseball, they wouldn't have gotten past the ALDS

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12-18-2012, 02:51 PM
  #366
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Originally Posted by bluesfan94 View Post
After the team they were playing lost any ability to hit and their Hall of Fame shortstop. Then they got humiliated in the World Series. They were also this close to losing to the A's. Without the best pitcher in baseball, they wouldn't have gotten past the ALDS
The Tigers weren't hitting either, and they were already in control before Jeter went down.

I disagree.. They weren't good in the WS, but I think that had a lot more to do with the week off they had before... SF was playing high intensity games right up to that point, where as the Tigers went on vacation then had to jump back into the fire.. Besides that, their lack of athleticism was made very apparent.

The A's were a good team, I don't know how you can discredit them, they won the West?

In the past the Jays had to out mash their opponents to win.. Now they have speed, OBP and pitching for when then big fly isn't working..

I don't dispute that the Angels and Marlins deals didn't work, but they also didn't have the solid core in place ahead of time..

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12-18-2012, 03:09 PM
  #367
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by your logic, shouldn't san francisco have been tired from all the game they had to play?

the giants were, far and away, a better team than the tigers. and it showed.

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12-18-2012, 03:11 PM
  #368
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Originally Posted by Jonathan. View Post
You guys have completely missed the part where Sandy Alderson turned Mike Nickeas into a ****ing prospect. That is the best GM'ing I have ever seen in my entire life.
who cares they lost a cy young pitcher

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12-18-2012, 03:28 PM
  #369
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Originally Posted by sparxx87 View Post
You'd rather have the 5 best pitching prospects instead of the best rotation in baseball? (on paper or in theory, which is exactly what prospects are - unproven in the big leagues)
Well if that was the question, then no. But I need to know the ages of the top rotation, injury issues, etc. You have to use it with context.

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He was hyped as the next great player, thats my point. Its far from uncommon for a player to never reach expectations.
Weiters is a damn good player. His accumulated WAR over the past two seasons puts him 3rd best in the league and tops amongst AL catchers(AINEC). He is a superstar in every sense of the word and a huge part as to why the Orioles made the playoffs last season.

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Syndergaard certainly has potential, but more 20 year old pitchers fail then succeed.
Pin point accuracy, blazing speed and ability to develop a 3rd pitch will put him in the upper echelon of prospects. I expect him to hit that level soon.

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What is upside? What does it count for? What wins baseball games, players or upside?
All players were projects and prospects at one point.

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When you're in win now mode, whats more useful? A Cy Young winner? or prospects who may or may not even make it to the show, nevermind have the impact of a Cy Young pitcher?
What were you thinking the Jays lost the Brett Lawrie trade when it was announced since they were giving up their opening day starter in return? Honest question.

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I'm sorry, whats more important then wins? Should we be more concerned with a pitchers stat line, or simply his W-L record?
lol.

Phil Huges: 16 Wins
Felix Hernandez: 13 Wins

I guess I'll take Hughes.

****ing lol.

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Do you truly believe what you post? Or are you too much of a Yankee fanboy and can't grasp the fact that the 220m(?) roster isn't the most attractive this year?
You are the one that's a fanboy. That's only your opinion man. I'm pretty content with this team and I expect another playoff spot for the 17th time in 18th season. You can pray and hope all you want for your first in 20 yrs. lol.

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The core in the Bronx is aging, and with the proclamation that they won't pay luxury tax anymore, fans seem to be grasping at whatever they can to avoid the thought of being mediocure.. Something that may happen as soon as this year.
Pretty ignorant, where to start....

1. Yes, the core is aging, but this has been constantly been said by the media and jealous fans for the past 2 decades. I'm sure your one of many that admitted: "LMAO, the Yankees are old, they're set to decline after Bernie Williams retires."

2. Steinbrunners only want to avoid the luxury tax for the 2013 season, a move which will help them save A LOT of money over the next 5 years. I really only expect that season to be a re-tooling phase and the beginning of somewhat of a youth movement.

3. NY is the most desirable market in the world. The NY Yankees are valued as the most valued franchise in NA. Free agents basically beg on their knees to have a chance to play here. And that's how the Yankees will re-tool, by replenishing their talent through FA.

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I just wanna see how long this payroll slash lasts for.. How long will NY tollerate their precious Yankees not being a power before they say to hell with no luxury tax and start throwing money at everything; the only way they know how to build a team.
lolwut? Every team needs money to build a team. Why are the Yankees scrutinized for going by the rules? As far as I'm concerned, there is no salary cap in baseball. Now if it was hockey and my team employed Scott Gomez, Shawn Horcoff and Mike Komisarek WITH a salary cap, then yes, laugh all you want. But money on the payroll is pretty much irrelevant for a model franchise like the Yankees.

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It seems like most Yankee fans are very uncomfortable not having the deck stacked in their favor this year.
Most Yankees think Derek Jeter is our best player, so I wouldn't put too much stock into what they say.


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12-18-2012, 03:32 PM
  #370
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Daric Barton is a massive bust.
He was really good in 2010.

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12-18-2012, 03:33 PM
  #371
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Originally Posted by Jonathan. View Post
You guys have completely missed the part where Sandy Alderson turned Mike Nickeas into a ****ing prospect. That is the best GM'ing I have ever seen in my entire life.
How do you know he did that? It wasn't even a straight up deal, but rather, you're making stuff up.

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12-18-2012, 04:12 PM
  #372
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Originally Posted by Jonathan. View Post
You guys have completely missed the part where Sandy Alderson turned Mike Nickeas into a ****ing prospect. That is the best GM'ing I have ever seen in my entire life.
No one thinks he is a prospect. Clearly the pre trade reports were slightly wrong.

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12-18-2012, 04:17 PM
  #373
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Well if that was the question, then no. But I need to know the ages of the top rotation, injury issues, etc. You have to use it with context.
A proven Cy Young winner tops any pitching prospect yet to set foot on a mound outside of A ball.

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Weiters is a damn good player. His accumulated WAR over the past two seasons puts him 3rd best in the league and tops amongst AL catchers(AINEC). He is a superstar in every sense of the word and a huge part as to why the Orioles made the playoffs last season.
Absolutely, but he isn't the second coming like he was projected as a prospect. More often then not you hear about a guys ceiling and they rarely reach it.



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Pin point accuracy, blazing speed and ability to develop a 3rd pitch will put him in the upper echelon of prospects. I expect him to hit that level soon.
How many times did you watch him in Lansing last year? Pin point accuracy? Thats a stretch.

He's a good arm and a good prospect, but the baseball graveyard is full of hard throwing rightys who never panned out.. Chances are wayy more likely that he'll fail then succeed.

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All players were projects and prospects at one point.
Absolutely, but way more fail then succeed. I'll taken proven players over potential any day. Especially when the proven player is coming off a CY Young, and 600+ innings as one of the best in baseball.

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What were you thinking the Jays lost the Brett Lawrie trade when it was announced since they were giving up their opening day starter in return? Honest question.
Not Lawrie. Something around Arencibia and Gose + high end prospect. We stocked up on high ceiling pitchers for this opportunity... Gose isn't a prospect anymore because hes played enough games, but I put him around the same level as d'Arnaud.

I'm one of the few who do think this was a steep price, but thats assuming both d'Arnaud and Syndergaard become everything they're expected... But I'm on board with the move now. Now is the time to take the chance considering how the rest of the division looks, and chances are, we swapped a good catcher for a great pitcher when all is said and done.
Quote:
lol.

Phil Huges: 16 Wins
Felix Hernandez: 13 Wins

I guess I'll take Hughes.

****ing lol.
You can't compare pitchers win-loss from one of the best to one of the worst teams... I was saying that I don't care if his individual stats gown down, as long as he helps win games.. He won 20 games with a poor Mets team, so I don't see it being an issue.


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You are the one that's a fanboy. That's only your opinion man. I'm pretty content with this team and I expect another playoff spot for the 17th time in 18th season. You can pray and hope all you want for your first in 20 yrs. lol.

If you're so content, then why come troll a team thats clearly your biggest threat?
Its not only my opinion.. Go ahead and read some baseball writers; a lot that I've read share this opinion. The AL east could be in for a power shift.. The Rays and the Jays are sitting pretty, while the Yanks and Sox have wayy more questions and holes then they're used to.

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Pretty ignorant, where to start....

1. Yes, the core is aging, but this has been constantly been said by the media and jealous fans for the past 2 decades. I'm sure your one of many that admitted: "LMAO, the Yankees are old, they're set to decline after Bernie Williams retires."
That was a team who still had its core in place.. Those people were foolish to make those projections.

Times are different now.

Quote:
2. Steinbrunners only want to avoid the luxury tax for the 2013 season, a move which will help them save A LOT of money over the next 5 years. I really only expect that season to be a re-tooling phase and the beginning of somewhat of a youth movement.
How does avoiding the tax next year save money over the next 5?

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3. NY is the most desirable market in the world. The NY Yankees are valued as the most valued franchise in NA. Free agents basically beg on their knees to have a chance to play here. And that's how the Yankees will re-tool, by replenishing their talent through FA.
Then why do they have to pay everyone more? If they're on their knees begging, shouldn't they come at a reasonable cost? I mean, they just paid Kevin Youkilis 12m? Russel Martin, their only viable option behind the plate left for Pittsburgh for marginally more money?

The evidence actually points to the contrary.. Players come to NY because they wanna get paid.


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lolwut? Every team needs money to build a team. Why are the Yankees scrutinized for going by the rules? As far as I'm concerned, there is no salary cap in baseball. Now if it was hockey and my team employed Scott Gomez, Shawn Horcoff and Mike Komisarek WITH a salary cap, then yes, laugh all you want. But money on the payroll is pretty much irrelevant for a model franchise like the Yankees.
Oh absoulutely.. It is within the rules, but its just not as respectable as building your team on a level playing field.. With the money they spend, they should win every year.

Clearly money on the payroll is a factor, or they wouldn't be trying to cut costs next year.

Half of your points are contradicted by evidence to the contrary.


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Most Yankees think Derek Jeter is our best player, so I wouldn't put too much stock into what they say.
So I should listen to you, insead of 'most Yankee fans'? FTR, I believe to to be Robinson Cano... He's the only superstar position player that I see. Tex is declining and injury prone. Granderson is HR or bust. A Rod is a shell of his former self (roid withdrawl) Jeter is still hanging around but time is against him, Ichiro as well. Gardiner is nothing special, solid player with great wheels, but far from a star in the making. I don't even know who the catcher is so I won't speak to that. CC is a stud, but after that I don't see anything notable. Pettite and Kuroda are like 62 years old, their days are definitely numbered... Pineda could be good, if he ever comes back and performs how he did in Seattle.....

Am I missing something? Because I see a team in a world of hurt?

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12-18-2012, 05:10 PM
  #374
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Nice coincidence that Dickey and JPA both live in Nashville. Apparently they'll spend the winter training together, so hopefully Arencibia can get a feel for the knuckleball before spring training.

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12-18-2012, 05:54 PM
  #375
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Nice coincidence that Dickey and JPA both live in Nashville. Apparently they'll spend the winter training together, so hopefully Arencibia can get a feel for the knuckleball before spring training.
I'd rather Arencibia focus on learning to properly catch a "regular" pitcher, first. Do not let him think about the knuckleball and instead just catch an already good staff. Perhaps learn to not strike out 30% of the time, too.

The Jays have set him up as the franchise catcher (I personally disagree with this move), and so it's best to take it in stride and one step at a time. Now is the time for him to reward the Jays for trusting him and this starts with improving his defense and offense (i.e., more than just power) first. We'll see what happens afterwards.

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