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[NYM/TOR] Dickey/Thole/Nickeas for D'Arnaud/Syndergaard/Buck/Becerra (done deal)

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Old
12-16-2012, 03:00 PM
  #201
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Originally Posted by mapes View Post
Easy when you spend over 200 mill..
If it's so 'easy', why didn't your team do it the past 20 yrs?

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Old
12-16-2012, 03:02 PM
  #202
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Originally Posted by mapes View Post
Easy when you spend over 200 mill..
No its not.

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12-16-2012, 03:03 PM
  #203
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No its not.
Exactly. See Cubs.

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12-16-2012, 03:06 PM
  #204
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Originally Posted by Tortorella View Post
Exactly. See Cubs.
And the Mets too. And the Dodgers. Hell even the Angels, what have they done for anyone lately?

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12-16-2012, 03:06 PM
  #205
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Originally Posted by Martini View Post

Are they better then last year? Sure, but I still put them in last place if the season started tomorrow. This team still has a whole lot of holes.
Come on. There is no way any sane person can believe this. I would bet $1000 that they are not in last place with the current lineup (and Dickey)

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12-16-2012, 03:14 PM
  #206
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Well they're better than the Red Sox that's for sure

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12-16-2012, 03:22 PM
  #207
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Originally Posted by Machinehead View Post
And the Mets too. And the Dodgers. Hell even the Angels, what have they done for anyone lately?
You can't include the Dodgers in that. They've been severely underfunded for the past 8 years (until now). It's too early to pass judgment on whether or not their spending succeeded or failed.

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Old
12-16-2012, 03:37 PM
  #208
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That's quite a bit to give up, but the addition of Dickey really solidifies their rotation. Dickey,Johnson,Buehrle,Morrow and Romero is a very solid rotation.

As for people being concerned with Dickey being 38, he throws the knuckleball. He can be productive for another 5 years, easy.

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Old
12-16-2012, 03:40 PM
  #209
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Originally Posted by Machinehead View Post
If they're keeping Arencebia then what the hell is Thole for?
Some one to catch Dickey.

JPA catching a knuckleball would be a disaster.

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Old
12-16-2012, 03:42 PM
  #210
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Originally Posted by DeathFromAbove View Post
Syndergaard - a pitcher who "might" win a Cy Young in his career for a guy who won one last year.
D'arnaud - a catcher who "might" become a good young player this year for the Mets. We already have a good young catcher.
Not really. JPA is not good. Below average defensivly and with his throwing arm, cant get on base.

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12-16-2012, 03:42 PM
  #211
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Arencibia can barely catch a normal pitcher, imagine him taking knuckleballs.

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Old
12-16-2012, 03:54 PM
  #212
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Originally Posted by Tortorella View Post
If it's so 'easy', why didn't your team do it the past 20 yrs?
Because its a lot of money to spend. Sorry easy was poor choice. I should say it makes it easier.

My team has a limit. If they were given the thumbs up to spend 200 mill, they would have gone after Greinke rather than trade for Dickey.

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12-16-2012, 04:14 PM
  #213
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Originally Posted by mapes View Post
Because its a lot of money to spend. Sorry easy was poor choice. I should say it makes it easier.

My team has a limit. If they were given the thumbs up to spend 200 mill, they would have gone after Greinke rather than trade for Dickey.
And Dickey is better so what a **** decision that would have been. The Jays are better off giving up some pieces for Dickey than they are throwing 158 million at a guy who doesn't deserve 158 million.

Goes to show you that decision making will always beat money in the front office.

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Old
12-16-2012, 04:17 PM
  #214
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Originally Posted by mapes View Post
Because its a lot of money to spend. Sorry easy was poor choice. I should say it makes it easier.

My team has a limit. If they were given the thumbs up to spend 200 mill, they would have gone after Greinke rather than trade for Dickey.
That's your management's personal choice to stuff their cash under their mattresses.

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Old
12-16-2012, 04:30 PM
  #215
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Originally Posted by Better Call Saul View Post
Brian Cashman is a rather inept GM with his four championship rings and one non-playoff year out of 15. The false sense of superiority emanating from Toronto fans of all people is quite funny. Congrats - the Jays are putting a good team on the field for once. Let's see if they can actually win something.
You can't really compare the two teams considering the payroll each had access to.

And you're really going to credit the WS titles in 1998 and 1999 to Cashman? All he did was trade for Clemens before the '99 season, and he wasn't really an improvement over Wells until a couple of years later.

Regardless, you're right, the track record is obviously better, but let's see what he can do with an aging core and an owner that wants to spend a little less.

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Old
12-16-2012, 04:36 PM
  #216
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This is an awful trade from the Jays perspective if true. Overpayed way too much. Although it gives us a great chance at winning the WC.

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Old
12-16-2012, 04:39 PM
  #217
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Originally Posted by le_sean View Post
You can't really compare the two teams considering the payroll each had access to.

And you're really going to credit the WS titles in 1998 and 1999 to Cashman? All he did was trade for Clemens before the '99 season, and he wasn't really an improvement over Wells until a couple of years later.

Regardless, you're right, the track record is obviously better, but let's see what he can do with an aging core and an owner that wants to spend a little less.
He already answered that when he traded our top prospect for the staypuft marshmallow man, but that's a different thread

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Old
12-16-2012, 05:11 PM
  #218
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Originally Posted by Martini View Post
Yes, because by using advanced statistics...but not certain ones which dont adhere to knuckleball pitchers, Dickey suddenly becomes one of the best pitchers in baseball and makes the whole advanced stat tripe just that...tripe.

We get it. Yet another desperation move to try and compete with the big teams in the east and the hope of many a Jays fan rides on every little calculated risk like some sort of cape of underwhelming. These are desperate times in Jays land. Head scratching risks and hope to gods sure dont cut it in a division that has proven winners, such as the Yankees and Rays, in the same division. The Jays were on par with the Royals last year. Now, as some sort of united effort in futile, AA has done an overwhelmingly justified job in wiping his entire farm system out in the span of one off season and has what, exactly, to show for it?

A multiple time all star SS which means absolutely nothing when the next season starts?
Correct.
A proven workhorse who has how many innings on his arm and has shown arm tiredness in the past? Correct.
A right handed pitcher who has proven countless times that he can carry the load while on the DL? Correct.
A known drugger? Correct
A club house cancer re-instated as manager? Correct
And now, possibly a gimmick pitcher who has one good year on his resume? Maybe.

And thats gonna beat the Yankees? A team that doesnt always have the best talent but has the one thing a team like the Jays havent done in decades, and thats know how to win?

I'm not the only one saying that.

The Jays were closer to the Royals then near the top of the league, where the White Sox were most of the year. The Sox didnt have to, thats the rub.

And chances are the White Sox will win a WS again before the Jays even win their respected division.


I mean, really? Does anybody not see the drastic holes still there on a team that lost almost 90 games last year? Or is there actual belief that all these moves suddenly swing the Jays 20 games, yes, and outlandish number, positive and even then, its fair to say 95 wins takes the division on the low end and even with a 20 game handicap, the Jays still come up short.

And on that note, I still see them as a last place team. Not enough and what they have brought in is questionable to say the least.
Desperation? Desperation is paying Kevin Youkilis 12m to play 3rd base, or Victorino 13m to play RF.

Alex always maintained that he's spend the money and parlay the assets when the time is right.. By his estimation, the time is now.

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?...s_mlb&c_id=mlb

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Once upon a time, the Blue Jays had virtually no hope of passing the Yankees and Red Sox. Now, they're absolutely loaded. Presuming they'll finish the proposed deal for R.A. Dickey, it'll be almost impossible to make a case for any other team winning the American League East.
Quote:
The Blue Jays have been close in recent years, finishing with a winning record five of the last seven seasons. It's just that the American League East was baseball's best division, and it was almost impossible to crack the front three owned by the Rays, Red Sox and Yankees.
Its ironic that most experts and writers who get paid to assess these situations project the Jays to win the division.. Yet little old you sees them last? (a place they've only been once in the past 15 seasons)

The games still have to be played, but to suggest they haven't improved significantly and aren't the favorites (at least on paper) you aren't being realistic.


I understand the White Sox have big payroll, small attendance numbers, and suck almost every year, but try and be realistic... Your trolling is getting old and you only make yourself look foolish.. But then again, you should stick to what you're good at.

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Old
12-16-2012, 05:19 PM
  #219
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Originally Posted by TheyAreGoodScaryGood View Post
Well first off the jays had TONS of injuries last year so they eouldve won atleast 80 games if they were healthy (82 win in 2011) and theyve added izturis, cabrera, reyes, bonofacio, johnson, buehrle, and dickey who has had three good years, it isnt very hard to look up his stats instead of making up your own in your fantasy world. So I'm pretty sure those players will add the 15 wins to get them to 95 if not more
Exactly. Every team has injuries, but the Jays had well above the league average. Pretty poor comparison by Martini when he tries to compare the Royals to the Jays based solely on their records. The Jays had 4 of their starters out for significant parts of the season, their projected closer in Santos, and Jose Bautista missed almost half the season. Now, admittedly, some of those starters (like Drabek) weren't all that good. However, when you lose a good pitcher like Morrow for a third of the season and a rookie pitcher in Hutchison, who has having a solid season, for half the year then your team's win-loss record will suffer.

The Royals had nowhere near the injuries to their starters that the Blue Jays did, nor did the Royals lose a player of Jose Bautista's calibre for half a season. If the Blue Jays had the league average of man games lost due to injury, we would be looking at a team with 79 - 82 wins in the AL East. In a week division like the AL Central, you could probably add several more wins on top of that given the weak competition and Blue Jays record against that division.

If the Blue Jays don't suffer the same bad luck with injuries next year, and there is no reason to believe they will, they should be able to win 90+ wins next year. IMO, that's only 10 plus wins over last year if the Blue Jays have the league average in man games lost due to injury in 2012. Realistically, the players acquired in the offseason, Reyes, Itzuris, Bonificio, Buerhle, Johnson, Carbrera and Dickey should add 10+ wins over the MLB-active players they lost including Alvarez, Escobar, and Hechavarria.

And Martini, Dickey has had 2 good seasons and 1 excellent season over the past three years. Check out his stats here:

http://www.tsn.ca/mlb/teams/players/bio/?id=1628

2010 27 starts 11 wins 9 losses 2 CG 1 SHO 174 innings 42 walks and 104 Ks 1.19 WHIP 2.84 ERA

2011 32 starts 8 wins 13 losses 1 CG 208 Innings 54 walks 134 Ks 1.23 WHIP 3.28 ERA

2012 33 starts 20 wins 6 losses 5 CG 3 SHO 233 innins 54 walks 230 Ks 1.05 Whip and 2.73 ERA

I defy you to tell me 2010 and 2011 seasons weren't "good" seasons. I am too lazy to compare him to other starting pitchers in 2010 and 2011, but I feel confident in saying those numbers would put him in the top 30, if not top 20 starting pitchers in the game for those 2 seasons.

If the rumored 13 - 15 million per season 2-year extension happens, the Jays don't need him to be as good as he was in 2012. Dickey can pitch like his 2010 or 2011 self and he will still provide the Jays with excellent value.

As for those who say Dicky won't put up good numbers against the AL East, another poster displayed his numbers against that division and he was dominant. Also, let's not forget the division has suffered reduction in offense of late. And it is expected to get worse. The Orioles and Rays have average to below average offense. The Red Sox have become progressively worse over the past season, especially when you factor in the loss of key pieces like Alex Gonzalez last year. The Yankees have an aging Derek Jeter, A-Rod will be out half the season (and he is a shadow of his former self anyways), they lost Martin, and are likely to lose Swisher. No, Youkilis will not make up for those losses.

As it stands right now, the Jays have the best offense in the division. Yep, better than the Yankees and a lot better than the Red Sox, Rays and Orioles.

The Jays have the second best starting pitching staff in the division. Rays are the best, followed by the Jays, then the Yanks, Red Sox (they might rank higher if Buchholz can get his act together) and the Orioles.

Jays have an excellent bullpen with all the additions AA made next season so no weaknesses there. Only question is can Santos bounce back from his injury? If not, Janssen showed last year he is capable of handling the closer role.

Altogether I expect the Jays to win 91+ games and win the division. The other teams in the division simply don't have strength in all three areas (starting pitching, relief pitching and starting lineup) that the Jays possess.

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Old
12-16-2012, 05:35 PM
  #220
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Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy View Post
Altogether I expect the Jays to win 91+ games and win the division. The other teams in the division simply don't have strength in all three areas (starting pitching, relief pitching and starting lineup) that the Jays possess.
It's not like Jays relief pitching is elite. Santos is enigma, i'm not a fan of Lincoln/ Delabar/ Rogers trio.

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Old
12-16-2012, 05:36 PM
  #221
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It's not like Jays relief pitching is elite. Santos is enigma, i'm not a fan of Lincoln/ Delabar/ Rogers trio.
Just because you are not a fan does not mean they will perform.

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Old
12-16-2012, 05:45 PM
  #222
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lol Jays.

Give up two two elite prospects for a 38 yr old rental. Inept management is inept.
How is it a rental? The deal is contingent on him signing an extension?

You forgot to mention that 38 year old is the reigning Cy Young award winner as well...

This deal is very much a wait and see. I'm not crazy about it, but if Dickey gives us 3 or 4 years of solid production then it'll be solid... d'Arnaud, as much as I like him, isn't a sure thing.. He's never played a day in the majors and he has had some injuries (hip and knee) which can be devestating to a guy who squats for a living... Syndergaard has big upside, but 20 year old pitchers bust wayyyy more often then they boom.


This deal is still very much up in the air in regards to the winner and loser.



Its easy to manage when your GM can just throw money at everything.. Look how well the Cashman has done when under budget; a whole lot of nothing. ( I consider signing Youkilis to 12m deal nothing, although I guess a joke is something) It'll be interesting to see how the Yankees plan to compete on a somewhat level playing field for once. Although I don't expect it to last long. They'll likely realize soon enough how hard it is to win when the odds aren't stacked in your favor and just eat another 225million in luxury tax over the next decade as well.

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12-16-2012, 05:49 PM
  #223
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Originally Posted by sparxx87 View Post
How is it a rental? The deal is contingent on him signing an extension?

You forgot to mention that 38 year old is the reigning Cy Young award winner as well...

This deal is very much a wait and see. I'm not crazy about it, but if Dickey gives us 3 or 4 years of solid production then it'll be solid... d'Arnaud, as much as I like him, isn't a sure thing.. He's never played a day in the majors and he has had some injuries (hip and knee) which can be devestating to a guy who squats for a living... Syndergaard has big upside, but 20 year old pitchers bust wayyyy more often then they boom.


This deal is still very much up in the air in regards to the winner and loser.



Its easy to manage when your GM can just throw money at everything.. Look how well the Cashman has done when under budget; a whole lot of nothing. ( I consider signing Youkilis to 12m deal nothing, although I guess a joke is something) It'll be interesting to see how the Yankees plan to compete on a somewhat level playing field for once. Although I don't expect it to last long. They'll likely realize soon enough how hard it is to win when the odds aren't stacked in your favor and just eat another 225million in luxury tax over the next decade as well.
Ignore the Yankee fans, they are pretty mad over the Jays offseason moves.

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Old
12-16-2012, 05:49 PM
  #224
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Sick starting rotation

...but too much that was given IMO.

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12-16-2012, 05:59 PM
  #225
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Originally Posted by Machinehead View Post
And Dickey is better so what a **** decision that would have been. The Jays are better off giving up some pieces for Dickey than they are throwing 158 million at a guy who doesn't deserve 158 million.

Goes to show you that decision making will always beat money in the front office.
If rather them spend the cash on a top 10 pitcher than deal for another one. But that's because I'm not the one who pays them.

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