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Lockout V: Take the Long Way Home

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Old
12-20-2012, 06:27 PM
  #551
Melrose Munch
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Originally Posted by Ducks DVM View Post
So your contention is that trap hockey, defensive systems, larger goalies with larger pads, and shot blocking, and the return of clutch and grab hockey are all due to the salary cap? Interesting theory.

Regardless, you miss my point. I like regular season hockey too. Watching elite teams breeze through a league of doormats and having to wait until the conference finals to see the actual elite teams play each other is less interesting for more of the season for me. To each their own.
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Originally Posted by Ducks DVM View Post
Again, it's a fallacy that all teams become mediocre. The top teams just aren't AS good as they would be otherwise. There's still a clear pecking order in the league.
Any time there's a forced spread of players it happens. Expansion brought this too as does the cap.You even admit the teams are not as good.

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12-20-2012, 06:34 PM
  #552
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SunGarrioch 3:22pm via Web Daly on his HNIC radio comment: “I only had two choices: Of course, I was going to answer ‘Yes’. Yes, I do (have optimism)."

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12-20-2012, 06:39 PM
  #553
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Originally Posted by Ducks DVM View Post
Again, it's a fallacy that all teams become mediocre. The top teams just aren't AS good as they would be otherwise. There's still a clear pecking order in the league.
Simple math dictates that it isn't a fallacy. If you take the 30 best players in the world and put one of each on 30 different teams then it pretty much stands to reason that none of those teams would be as good as a team with 5 of those players. It is pretty obvious to me.

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12-20-2012, 06:42 PM
  #554
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Originally Posted by Melrose Munch View Post
Any time there's a forced spread of players it happens. Expansion brought this too as does the cap.You even admit the teams are not as good.
My last try - not as good =/= mediocre. If you get an "A-", "B+", or "B" in class does that mean you got a "C"?

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12-20-2012, 06:44 PM
  #555
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Again, it's a fallacy that all teams become mediocre. The top teams just aren't AS good as they would be otherwise. There's still a clear pecking order in the league.
The Redwings are one example. They have been one of the model franchises in the league in terms of success. Yet in a cap league they have fallen to a team that is more like all the other teams. This result is the whole point of a cap. I would argue that tearing down the most successful example of your product in order to make them more equal to the worst example of your product isn't good for the game.

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12-20-2012, 06:48 PM
  #556
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My last try - not as good =/= mediocre. If you get an "A-", "B+", or "B" in class does that mean you got a "C"?
To use your grade analogy...take the smartest kids in the class and make them as dumb as the dumbest kids in the class. Then give each kid an "A". Parity.

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12-20-2012, 06:53 PM
  #557
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The next round of cancellations will be the cancellation of the remainder of the regular season. Gotta love the morons in the NHLPA/NHL.

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Originally Posted by Ducks DVM View Post
Again, it's a fallacy that all teams become mediocre. The top teams just aren't AS good as they would be otherwise. There's still a clear pecking order in the league.
Teams have definitely gotten way worse since the last CBA. There is more parity, but it has nothing to do with lesser teams catching up to the top teams, but top teams becoming worse.

Red Wings are a perfect example of this.

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Old
12-20-2012, 07:02 PM
  #558
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http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=412044

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It was the fifth such cancellation since the lockout began, and the latest two-week block of games lost had been expected by the Players' Association. The two sides are now even closer to a final deadline to salvage a shortened season.

"Sometimes I think we've been waiting for those for many, many months now," Fehr said.
Apparently nobody was expecting to get anything done prior to this deadline. So, there was no urgency to give in or agree on a compromise for anyone involved.

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12-20-2012, 07:05 PM
  #559
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McLlwain View Post
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=412044


Apparently nobody was expecting to get anything done prior to this deadline. So, there was no urgency to give in or agree on a compromise for anyone involved.
It's like waiting "for the right moment" to ask a girl out. An absolutely horrible strategy which NEVER pays off.

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12-20-2012, 07:06 PM
  #560
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The Redwings are one example. They have been one of the model franchises in the league in terms of success. Yet in a cap league they have fallen to a team that is more like all the other teams. This result is the whole point of a cap. I would argue that tearing down the most successful example of your product in order to make them more equal to the worst example of your product isn't good for the game.
What is the Red Wings spending history since the implementation of a cap?

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12-20-2012, 07:17 PM
  #561
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The parity/Red Wings thing is OT but I believe their main problem is that they haven't had any great player enter the league since the last lockout. Their drafting hasn't been good enough to keep them as a truly elite team. That makes them less attractive to top UFAs.

If there is a couple of truly elite players in their current crop of prospects they might rise again. If not, they might fade.

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12-20-2012, 07:17 PM
  #562
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What is the Red Wings spending history since the implementation of a cap?
They would spend to the cap limit, but the last couple of years they were unable to do much because they were so close to the cap. Last season was the first time in a long time they had any useful cap space.

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12-20-2012, 08:02 PM
  #563
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In a parity league the conference finals don't have elite teams either. Even the cup winner is just the average team that made it to the end.
So, in your opinion this past season when the Kings went from an 8th seed to the cup in the manner that they did they were only a "average" team?

What teams would have been the right teams to have made it to and won the cup this past season or more to the point, which if any teams do you see having been unaffected by this parity that you seem to think has ruined the league?

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Old
12-20-2012, 08:08 PM
  #564
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Originally Posted by McLlwain View Post
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=412044


Apparently nobody was expecting to get anything done prior to this deadline. So, there was no urgency to give in or agree on a compromise for anyone involved.
A viable offer was on the table at $211M Make Whole paid by the owners on Nov 2. That could have been signed an a nearly complete season played. I don't advocate the NHLPA ever caving completely, but if you truly don't expect to get anything done by January, you don't even put an offer like that out there.

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Old
12-20-2012, 08:14 PM
  #565
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Originally Posted by schminksbro View Post
The Redwings are one example. They have been one of the model franchises in the league in terms of success. Yet in a cap league they have fallen to a team that is more like all the other teams. This result is the whole point of a cap. I would argue that tearing down the most successful example of your product in order to make them more equal to the worst example of your product isn't good for the game.
So then you don't believe in the draft or having the top team draft last then, right?

I mean the if the Wings are a great franchise (which I think they are) then they will either become great at drafting at or near the bottom of each round, have a GM and staff who can turn the assets that they do acquire into players who play at the top of their abilities or turning those assets into picks etc.

I mean, if there were fewer teams you would have less competition for talent, that is true but then great teams always seem to want to put their best against the best possible competition and since everyone is governed under the EXACT same set of rules then everyone has the EXACT same set of ability to build a great team.

If anything, the Wings should be happy that the league has grown enough to give them the kind of competition that they deserve.

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Old
12-20-2012, 08:26 PM
  #566
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To use your grade analogy...take the smartest kids in the class and make them as dumb as the dumbest kids in the class. Then give each kid an "A". Parity.
So, to extend your analogy, you'd be willing to swap rosters, coaching staffs, and scouts with Columbus, right? Because the top and bottom of the league have been made universally mediocre?

Everyone who thinks the New England Patriots are a "mediocre" team raise their hands. That's a cap league too.

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12-20-2012, 08:26 PM
  #567
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Q and A with Bill Daly:

http://www.torontosun.com/2012/12/20...ith-qmi-agency


QMI: Have you found the negotiations have been a moving target and it's been tough to nail down the union?

DALY: "That's a very fair comment and that's how we feel."

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Old
12-20-2012, 08:38 PM
  #568
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The phenomena you just pointed out really does shape our current position: Maybe there is some flexibility around the issues here, but let us know what it is you're prepared to do. If you have a proposal, make the proposal. If it's something we can deal with, we'll deal with it. If it's not, then we'll go back and start re-trading issues.
LINK

As I suspected, it isn't truly 'take it or leave it'. Both sides are always posturing.

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Old
12-20-2012, 09:24 PM
  #569
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So, in your opinion this past season when the Kings went from an 8th seed to the cup in the manner that they did they were only a "average" team?

What teams would have been the right teams to have made it to and won the cup this past season or more to the point, which if any teams do you see having been unaffected by this parity that you seem to think has ruined the league?
No I don't think the Kings were anywhere close to an elite team. I would say that the bottom 10-12 teams have not been affected by the cap. They are still bad its just that the top teams are now closer to them.

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Old
12-20-2012, 09:28 PM
  #570
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Originally Posted by Ducks DVM View Post
So, to extend your analogy, you'd be willing to swap rosters, coaching staffs, and scouts with Columbus, right? Because the top and bottom of the league have been made universally mediocre?

Everyone who thinks the New England Patriots are a "mediocre" team raise their hands. That's a cap league too.
The league hasn't achieved total parity yet but they are headed in that direction. In 5 years there won't be any difference between Columbus and Detroit. And no, the Patriots are not elite. Certainly not as elite as they would be in a free market league.

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12-20-2012, 09:30 PM
  #571
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The Redwings are one example. They have been one of the model franchises in the league in terms of success. Yet in a cap league they have fallen to a team that is more like all the other teams. This result is the whole point of a cap. I would argue that tearing down the most successful example of your product in order to make them more equal to the worst example of your product isn't good for the game.
Do you think that the fact that the same few teams have been crammed down our throats over the course of the last couple of decades has made it so when people see anyone BUT them they lose interest because they don't know and aren't familiar with the team?

Lets look at baseball as an example. As a fan from the west coast I've long believed that the never ending romanticism between the Red Sox and Yankees would eventually come back and bite the league in the ass because, at some point, those games would be less meaningful. Now MLB has reached a point where not only are these teams not the most entertaining, but might not even be the best in their own division. Now when you ask someone who isn't familiar with the game if they can name two teams, guess what two they name (aside from the city they live in)?

I live in SD, but travel to LA often, and the amount of publicity that hockey received during their run was unparalleled at any time since The Trade. People who had never watched it were turned on to it, and surprised by just how fun the game was to watch as opposed to Baseball and Basketball. Had it been the same old Detroit/Pittsburgh etc the amount of people that would have been turned to the sport would have been minimal at best as has been proven by the last 20 odd years of LA King futility which equated to nominal interest. Like with almost any other sport, if you win people will come.

In summary I guess what I'm trying to say is that if the same 5 or so teams kick the crap out of everyone every year then teams from cities that aren't from those teams will not have much, if any exposure to serious playoff hockey. This isn't the EPL where its a one sport monopoly and fans will flock no matter what. Hockey is AT BEST a second class citizen in any city that isn't in Canada and it will only get worse if you keep these teams with lesser players while the Torontos of the world compile super teams and beat the crap out of them. It will stagnate the game, even if the conference finals and SCF's have 7 all-stars on each team.

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12-20-2012, 09:31 PM
  #572
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Originally Posted by McLlwain View Post
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=412044


Apparently nobody was expecting to get anything done prior to this deadline. So, there was no urgency to give in or agree on a compromise for anyone involved.
Fehr had this date in mind a long time ago as did I. I have been *****in about this guy since late summer and predicted we would be right where we are now. I will also predict Fehr will force a season cancellation before "maybe" uncancelling it. The man is ruthless and is always use to getting his way....whatever it takes and a season lost for hockey is the last of this guys worries.

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12-20-2012, 09:38 PM
  #573
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So then you don't believe in the draft or having the top team draft last then, right?

I mean the if the Wings are a great franchise (which I think they are) then they will either become great at drafting at or near the bottom of each round, have a GM and staff who can turn the assets that they do acquire into players who play at the top of their abilities or turning those assets into picks etc.

I mean, if there were fewer teams you would have less competition for talent, that is true but then great teams always seem to want to put their best against the best possible competition and since everyone is governed under the EXACT same set of rules then everyone has the EXACT same set of ability to build a great team.

If anything, the Wings should be happy that the league has grown enough to give them the kind of competition that they deserve.
The Wings drafted Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Lidstrom and many others late in the draft. The problem going forward will be that once they draft and develop a great player they will be forced to either let him go or let one of their veterans go because the cap is designed to prevent a consolidation of talent on any one team. By those rules nobody can build a great team. EVER. Remember that pre cap everyone had the exact same set of rules as well. How do you hold a Stanley Cup win up as an amazing accomplishment in a handicapped league?

Just to clarify, I think this is relevant to the topic because for these reasons I hope the players decertify. I know that the NHL will never be great again but it would be cool to see real competition just one more time regardless of whether my team came out on top or not.

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12-20-2012, 10:44 PM
  #574
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Fehr had this date in mind a long time ago as did I. I have been *****in about this guy since late summer and predicted we would be right where we are now. I will also predict Fehr will force a season cancellation before "maybe" uncancelling it. The man is ruthless and is always use to getting his way....whatever it takes and a season lost for hockey is the last of this guys worries.
That's not going to happen. ESPECIALLY after the fiasco in '05 when Gretzky and Lemieux were supposedly going to negotiate to 'un'cancel a season. Once Bettman steps to a microphone and says 'season over' that's it.

I do wish we'd at least have a firm date and not just this ambiguous 'within this few day period'. Everyone knows what the timeline is, based on 48 games, precedent and the last cancellations.

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12-20-2012, 11:29 PM
  #575
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The Wings drafted Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Lidstrom and many others late in the draft. The problem going forward will be that once they draft and develop a great player they will be forced to either let him go or let one of their veterans go because the cap is designed to prevent a consolidation of talent on any one team. By those rules nobody can build a great team. EVER. Remember that pre cap everyone had the exact same set of rules as well. How do you hold a Stanley Cup win up as an amazing accomplishment in a handicapped league?

Just to clarify, I think this is relevant to the topic because for these reasons I hope the players decertify. I know that the NHL will never be great again but it would be cool to see real competition just one more time regardless of whether my team came out on top or not.
Competition is when you have to relatively equal sides playing a contest. With a push to parity you are increasing the chances of two teams being relatively equal. What you have been suggesting would effectively limit the number of competitive contests. You are making an argument that is anti rather than pro competition.

In some instances you are arguing for continuity for your team rather than competitiveness. But you will turf your own argument if you add the ability to cash grab for mercenary star players who are currently on other teams. It then becomes just another argument of selfishness for your own team.

Finally and for Detroit specifically, they have never promoted large numbers of players but they have a stellar record for late round drafting, above all other teams. My take is that it is possible that some of the shine is coming off that record. They have missed a hit or two in their drafting and are now in the window when those missing hits are having an effect. If Flipper, Flash or Hudler had been equal to Z, if Fischer hadn't had the issue and become better than Kronwall. A whole bunch of almost but not quites. I fully respect Detroit's ability at the draft and do expect them to bounce back, but they might have a few lean years. Their scouting is still picking where others aren't and are still observing philosophies that other teams do not use. That is a lot of what got them two decades of dominance.

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