Best Playmaker: Crosby vs. Forsberg vs. Jagr

[Ferros]

Originally Posted by CHGoalie72

That's unfair, as you come across that you might be the only valid opinion by a cop out cheap shot.

If you don't think Crosby is at least as good of a playmaker as the other two...

That wasn't what I wanted but I actually do think that there are plenty of people that did not read the OP before voting based on the results of the poll.

And no, I do not think Crosby is as good at playmaking as Jagr and Forsberg were. That doesn't say much about what I think of Crosby though.

[Minimalist*]

Crosby

[livewell68]

This poll is clearing showing that most voting were not old enough to have watched Jagr and Forsberg in their primes.

Just some food for though.

This is from CzechMate in the "By the Numbers" section.

These stats show just how dominant Forsberg and Jagr were as opposed to Crosby.

Some of the best adjusted streaks from 1994-2012:

# Player Year Gms PPG
1 Lemieux 1996 41 2.54
2 Jagr 2001 45 2.01
3 Jagr 1996 42 1.98
4 Lemieux 1997 41 1.94
5 Jagr 2000 41 1.94
6 Lemieux 2001 43 1.90
7 Lemieux 2003 43 1.89
8 Selanne 1999 41 1.88
9 Jagr 1999 52 1.85
10 Forsberg 2003 45 1.83
11 Lindros 1999 41 1.82
12 Crosby 2007 42 1.82
13 Ovechkin 2010 52 1.80
14 Francis 1996 41 1.80
15 Lindros 1997 43 1.76
16 Jagr 1998 41 1.76
17 Ovechkin 2008 41 1.75
18 Crosby 2011 41 1.74
19 Gretzky 1994 46 1.74
20 Malkin 2012 41 1.73
21 Sakic 2001 62 1.70
22 Jagr 1997 44 1.69
23 Malkin 2008 42 1.68
24 LeClair 1999 42 1.67
25 Thornton 2003 41 1.66
26 Alfredsson 2008 42 1.65
27 Fedorov 1994 42 1.64
28 Lindros 1995 42 1.63
29 Crosby 2010 55 1.62
30 Thornton 2006 44 1.62
31 Kariya 1997 43 1.61
32 Thornton 2007 51 1.61
33 Malkin 2009 42 1.61
34 SedinH 2010 41 1.59
35 Selanne 1997 42 1.58
36 Forsberg 2001 41 1.57
37 Kovalchuk 2006 41 1.57
38 Ovechkin 2009 66 1.57
39 Bure 2001 41 1.56
40 Sakic 2000 42 1.55
41 LeClair 1997 46 1.55
42 Alfredsson 2006 44 1.55
43 Lindros 1996 47 1.55
44 Forsberg 2004 41 1.55
45 Jagr 2006 44 1.54
46 Bure 2000 46 1.54
47 Forsberg 1998 41 1.54
48 Bure 1994 43 1.53
49 St. Louis 2007 41 1.51
50 Gretzky 1998 41 1.51
51 Iginla 2007 47 1.51
52 Selanne 1996 42 1.50
53 Jagr 1995 41 1.50
54 Elias 2001 41 1.50
55 Fedorov 1996 41 1.49
56 Forsberg 1999 44 1.49
57 Neely 1994 44 1.47
58 Stamkos 2010 42 1.47
59 Gretzky 1997 41 1.47
60 Stamkos 2012 41 1.47
61 Selanne 1998 46 1.46
62 Ovechkin 2006 44 1.46
63 Forsberg 1996 41 1.45
64 Sakic 1996 41 1.45
65 Jagr 2002 41 1.44
66 Lindros 1994 51 1.44
67 Forsberg 2006 41 1.43
68 Gretzky 1996 41 1.42
69 Elias 2000 43 1.42

Some of the best 41+ game streaks from 1994-2012:
# Player Year Gms G A Pts PPG
1 Lemieux 1996 41 45 64 109 2.66
2 Jagr 1996 42 36 51 87 2.07
3 Francis 1996 41 20 57 77 1.88
4 Lemieux 1997 41 31 46 77 1.88
5 Gretzky 1994 46 22 64 86 1.87
6 Jagr 2001 45 33 51 84 1.87
7 Crosby 2007 42 23 53 76 1.81
8 Jagr 2000 41 33 40 73 1.78
9 Lemieux 2001 43 35 41 76 1.77
10 Fedorov 1994 42 32 42 74 1.76
11 Lindros 1997 43 29 44 73 1.70
12 Lemieux 2003 43 20 53 73 1.70
13 Ovechkin 2010 52 42 46 88 1.69
14 Thornton 2006 44 17 57 74 1.68
15 Selanne 1999 41 31 37 68 1.66
16 Bure 1994 43 43 28 71 1.65
17 Forsberg 2003 45 20 54 74 1.64
18 Jagr 1997 44 41 31 72 1.64
19 Jagr 1999 52 27 58 85 1.63
20 Lindros 1995 42 28 40 68 1.62
21 Lindros 1996 47 36 40 76 1.62
22 Crosby 2011 41 32 34 66 1.61
23 Ovechkin 2008 41 36 30 66 1.61
24 Lindros 1999 41 25 41 66 1.61
25 Kovalchuk 2006 41 34 32 66 1.61
26 Thornton 2007 51 14 68 82 1.61
27 Alfredsson 2006 44 32 38 70 1.59
28 Neely 1994 44 50 20 70 1.59
29 Jagr 2006 44 30 40 70 1.59
30 Sakic 2001 62 44 54 98 1.58
31 Malkin 2009 42 17 49 66 1.57
32 Selanne 1996 42 22 44 66 1.57
33 Fedorov 1996 41 23 41 64 1.56
34 Kariya 1997 43 28 39 67 1.56
35 Lindros 1994 51 36 43 79 1.55
36 Malkin 2008 42 33 32 65 1.55
37 Jagr 1998 41 22 41 63 1.54
38 Malkin 2012 41 33 31 63 1.54
39 Crosby 2010 55 39 45 84 1.53
40 Alfredsson 2008 42 29 35 64 1.52
41 Selanne 1997 42 32 32 64 1.52
42 Ovechkin 2009 66 53 47 100 1.52
43 Forsberg 1996 41 16 46 62 1.51
44 Sakic 1996 41 23 39 62 1.51
45 SedinH 2010 41 13 49 62 1.51
46 Yzerman 1994 41 19 43 62 1.51
47 LeClair 1997 46 34 35 69 1.50
48 Ovechkin 2006 44 32 34 66 1.50
49 Iginla 2007 47 28 42 70 1.49
50 Oates 1994 43 19 45 64 1.49
51 Forsberg 2006 41 15 46 61 1.49
52 Gretzky 1996 41 12 49 61 1.49
53 Thornton 2003 41 26 35 61 1.49
54 St. Louis 2007 41 28 33 61 1.49
55 Jagr 1995 41 28 33 61 1.49
56 LeClair 1999 42 29 33 62 1.48
57 Forsberg 2001 41 15 45 60 1.46
58 Stamkos 2010 42 30 28 58 1.45
59 Bure 2001 41 38 21 59 1.44
60 Sakic 2000 42 22 38 60 1.43
61 Gretzky 1997 41 16 42 58 1.41
62 Bure 2000 46 40 25 65 1.41
63 Elias 2001 41 24 33 57 1.39
64 Forsberg 1998 41 16 39 55 1.34
65 Forsberg 2004 41 18 37 55 1.34
66 Forsberg 1999 44 15 43 58 1.32
67 Gretzky 1998 41 12 42 54 1.32
68 Forsberg 2001 66 27 59 86 1.30

[Hardyvan123]

Originally Posted by livewell68

How can some people think Crosby is a better playmaker than Forsberg and Jagr?

Both Jagr and Forsberg are top 10 all-time playmakers.

1. Gretzky
2. Orr
3. Lemieux
4. Oates
5. Howe
6. Francis
7. Jagr
8. Lafleur
9. Coffey
10. Forsberg

Then players like Sakic, Yzerman, Thornton, Leetch, Gilmour, Clarke, Lafontaine, Stastny, Beliveau, follow.

Crosby would be closer to Sedin than he is to Jagr and Forsberg. In fact Crosby could probably be slotted at number 20 behind all the players I named above.

Not a bad list but getting assists and being a "play maker" isn't always the same thing.

I don't think that Jagr and Forsberg are all that far apart and you could take either one IMO but to put Crosby in this poll is a bit unfair as he is only 25 and his 386 assists since the lockout put him 3rd which is incredible given his starting age and time missed.

In APG he actually has done better than Thorton and Hank who might when it's all said and done be included on that top 10 play makers list.

[Hardyvan123]

Originally Posted by Fred Taylor

I consider these three equal in playmaking ability, which is why I made the poll, and so far I'd say Forsberg is getting massively underrated.

I wonder how long the thread would have gone with out someone else mentioning this.

I didn't vote because i can't put any of the 3 as a clear cut favorite.

Jagr has the better career but also the slowest start.

Sid's only none top 10 seasons in assists is in

08 whens he leads the NHL in .91 APG with 48 in 53
11 when he has .83 APG in 41 games and
12 when he has 1.32 APG in 22 games

Forsberg also showed great play making skills 18 onward

Jagr had the toughest transition, in a way, by playing in NA right after his draft but Pittsburgh traded for Hrdina to soften the transition and Pittsburgh had a ton of offense talent and style of play which helped to draw out Jagr's offensive skill set as well.

[Merya]

Selänne has some surprisingly nice numbers there, considering that some people consider him as just a sniper.

I really doubt Crosby will ever match Jagr in either pure dominance, or awards, or points. Malkin is the best player on the Pingus anyways. The games you don't play harm your worth.

If Selänne had been injuryfree all his career (he already had broken thighbone in Finland), he would be probably considered top 20 player of all time.

[JFG]

Originally Posted by Merya

If Selänne had been injuryfree all his career (he already had broken thighbone in Finland), he would be probably considered top 20 player of all time.

Sorry, but no.

[TAnnala]

Originally Posted by Merya

Selänne has some surprisingly nice numbers there, considering that some people consider him as just a sniper.

I really doubt Crosby will ever match Jagr in either pure dominance, or awards, or points. Malkin is the best player on the Pingus anyways. The games you don't play harm your worth.

If Selänne had been injuryfree all his career (he already had broken thighbone in Finland), he would be probably considered top 20 player of all time.

I have to agree with JFG here.

Selanne don't have the tools that a top-20 player would need. With or without injuries. If some player is basically all about offense then he should be pretty darn spectacular to crack top-20. I mean we are talking about Jagr territory here. He could have a few more nice finishes but I feel like we got to see what peak/prime Selanne is about. We just didn't get to see it as long as possible.

He is still underrated in all-time lists but I believe he is going to slot in the 50-70 range after few years of retirement. Right around where he should be.

[BeauRoger]

Do people really have this short memories? Jagr didnt fit the playmaker profile at all he was much more a sniper. crosby and forsberg are more prototypical playmakers, and between them, forsberg was better, at least in that aspect of the game. In fact, forsberg is a top 10 playmaker of all time. You cant just put down jagr as the winner of every category just cause he was an amazing player. Just because he had many assists doesnt mean he took the playmaker role at all. Why not put him down in the best goalie category too?

[TAnnala]

Originally Posted by BeauRoger

Do people really have this short memories? Jagr didnt fit the playmaker profile at all he was much more a sniper. crosby and forsberg are more prototypical playmakers, and between them, forsberg was better, at least in that aspect of the game. In fact, forsberg is a top 10 playmaker of all time. You cant just put down jagr as the winner of every category just cause he was an amazing player. Just because he had many assists doesnt mean he took the playmaker role at all. Why not put him down in the best goalie category too?

Being a great goal scorer does not mean you can't be a great playmaker too. Crosby won the rocket so is he not allowed to be considered a playmaker?

Jagr led the league in assists three times. Not something that sniper does. He was the best scorer of the three but he was amazing passer too.

[BrindamoursNose]

Foppa

[Barrie22]

Originally Posted by livewell68

This poll is clearing showing that most voting were not old enough to have watched Jagr and Forsberg in their primes.

Just some food for though.

This is from CzechMate in the "By the Numbers" section.

These stats show just how dominant Forsberg and Jagr were as opposed to Crosby.

that list also shows just how crappy gretzky was, like seriously can barely beat out malkin and thornton? what a bum that guy was.

[SteelFish87]

1. Jagr
2. Crosby






3. Forsberg

[TAnnala]

Originally Posted by SteelFish87

1. Jagr
2. Crosby






3. Forsberg

I think the order is right but the gap should be:

1. Jagr


2. Crosby
3. Forsberg

[BleedinBlueSince1972]

Jagr.

[NeedleInTheHay]

Jagr's a better playmaker and goalscorer than both of those players.

[Krudus]

did people watch forsberg and jagr in their prime? cause they dont really seem to do anything but look at the numbers. Forsberg was without a doubt a better playmaker than jagr, because that wasnt jagrs role. Forsberg has a higher assist per game ratio than jagr, both if you consider their whole respective careers, but especially if you consider the time they were both in the league. The bulk of Jagrs assists came when lemieux was his center, in a much higher scoring era. He is one of the best players and snipers of all time, but people kid themselves when they say he is best of the 3. I am truly embarrased for the people who voted him above crosby and forsberg which are primarely playmakers.

Jagr was the best player of the three, but he was not a better playmaker than either of them.

[sky04]

Originally Posted by PensMCGF92

did people watch forsberg and jagr in their prime? cause they dont really seem to do anything but look at the numbers. Forsberg was without a doubt a better playmaker than jagr, because that wasnt jagrs role. Forsberg has a higher assist per game ratio than jagr, both if you consider their whole respective careers, but especially if you consider the time they were both in the league. The bulk of Jagrs assists came when lemieux was his center, in a much higher scoring era. He is one of the best players and snipers of all time, but people kid themselves when they say he is best of the 3. I am truly embarrased for the people who voted him above crosby and forsberg which are primarely playmakers.

.

Forsberg played in HALF the amount of games Jagr did including little to NO games outside his prime, do you not understand how that would make his assist per game deceiving?

Last I checked Jagr put up incredible assist totals with or without Lemieux and during the dead puck era, post-lemieux Jagr was still better.

And if you wanna argue Crosby is a primary playmaker, what are you just guna disregard his rocket richard? Jagr was a primary playmaker also, like Crosby he's just a good goal scorer along with that.

Through their crossed careers Jagr posted a 1.33ppg and Forsberg a 1.25, the bulk of Jagrs assists come from the dead puck era, funny you should mention high scoring years because that's exactly where Forsberg had his career high. But hey if you consider seasons of 30,37,38,60 and 67 assists pre dead puck, the "bulk" of Jagrs 990 assists, I guess you're right..

[IcedCapp]

Originally Posted by Litework

Put Jagr and Forsberg in post-lockout and I'm certain they would outproduce Crosby. See what I did there?

shared your opinion?

[yuri28]

Forsberg.
The guy had the word "playmaker" written all over his body.

[Dangler99*]

1.Jagr
2.Crosby
3.Forsberg

[lakai17]

Big Joe Thornton with 5 assists.

I vote Foppa.