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Best NHLers pre-50s (not in HHOF)

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Old
12-16-2012, 06:33 PM
  #1
Elever
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Best NHLers pre-50s (not in HHOF)

For anyone who knows hockey before the 1940s or 50s, who were the best players we never hear about? The non-HOFers? Anything you can tell about them?

Here are some names:
Anderson, Tom
Dillon, Cecil
Gottselig, Johnny
Denneny, Corb
Aurie, Larry
Chapman, Art
Northcott, Baldy
Cleghorn, ODIE
Cooper, Carson


Last edited by Elever: 12-19-2012 at 04:36 PM.
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Old
12-16-2012, 06:42 PM
  #2
kmad
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Flash Hollett, Lionel Hitchman could have cases made for HOF induction.

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Old
12-16-2012, 06:46 PM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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Bernie Morris probably would have been inducted if he weren't labelled a "draft dodger" during World War 1. He has a better record as a scorer in the PCHA than quite a few players who were inducted.

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12-16-2012, 09:37 PM
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Ohashi_Jouzu
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Bernie Morris probably would have been inducted if he weren't labelled a "draft dodger" during World War 1. He has a better record as a scorer in the PCHA than quite a few players who were inducted.
I suppose Mickey MacKay and Smokey Harris are also in the conversation, having finished with even higher PCHA career point totals. Carol ("Cully") Wilson is an interesting case that I've come across, too.

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12-16-2012, 09:42 PM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
I suppose Mickey MacKay and Smokey Harris are also in the conversation, having finished with even higher PCHA career point totals. Carol ("Cully") Wilson is an interesting case that I've come across, too.
MacKay was inducted into the HHOF in 1952. I don't think Harris was as prolific as Morris at his peak, but his stats are up there with some other HHOFers. Harris was probably hurt by the fact that his best seasons were all with Cyclone Taylor driving the offense.

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12-16-2012, 10:01 PM
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Amongst forgotten players -- Paul Thompson. Mainly a winger, did play some center. Extremely important for the Hawks Stanley Cups in the thirthies, their best forward actually. Support player for the Rangers as well.

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12-16-2012, 10:32 PM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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Amongst forgotten players -- Paul Thompson. Mainly a winger, did play some center. Extremely important for the Hawks Stanley Cups in the thirthies, their best forward actually. Support player for the Rangers as well.
Great call.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...thomppa01.html

Cecil Dillon was pretty good too, but below Thompson level probably.
http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...dilloce01.html

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12-17-2012, 12:07 PM
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seventieslord
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I've always found Thompson and Dillon right around the same level. Brian Propp territory - not quote HHOF caliber, even though you'd really like to see them there.

Morris might be the best non-HHOF pre-1940 forward though.

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Old
12-17-2012, 12:42 PM
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EagleBelfour
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I studied both Cecil Dillon and Paul Thompson extensively, and although on the same level of greatness, I would give the notch to Cecil Dillon. Them, alongside Bernie Morris, would probably be my Top-3. I'm a fan of Lionel Hitchman also.

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12-17-2012, 12:49 PM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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I think Jack Crawford has the best All Star record of an early defenseman who hasn't been inducted.

These are Crawford's finishes in All Star voting:
1939: 8th (also finished 4th in Calder voting)
1940: no placement (only played 35 of 48 games)
1941: 8th
1942: 5th (one alternate vote from a tie for 3rd)
1943: 3rd (2nd Team All Star)
1944: 6th (only played 34 of 50 games)
1945: 6th (only played 40 of 50 games)
1946: 1st (1st Team All Star, more 1st place and total votes than Ken Reardon. IMO, this is the equivalent of a Norris Trophy)
1947: 5th
1948: 7th (only played 45 of 60 games)

Overall All Star record: 1st, 3rd, 5th, 5th, 6th*, 6th*, 7th, 8th, 8th
*War Year

I'm not sure if I prefer Hitchman or Crawford

Hitchman was more famous, as Eddie Shore's partner.

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12-17-2012, 12:50 PM
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Ohashi_Jouzu
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I'm gonna toss out Eddie Oatman, who seems to be more or less lost to hockeyreference and eliteprospects, yet he was seemingly a 10X PCHA all-star, played 30 years of pro hockey, and I believe coached as well.

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12-17-2012, 01:29 PM
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seventieslord
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
I'm gonna toss out Eddie Oatman, who seems to be more or less lost to hockeyreference and eliteprospects, yet he was seemingly a 10X PCHA all-star, played 30 years of pro hockey, and I believe coached as well.
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...&postcount=145

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12-17-2012, 01:31 PM
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Ohashi_Jouzu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
It was actually this post/thread that reminded me of him a couple of days ago while doing some reading. Thanks for linking it. Steal at #519

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Old
12-17-2012, 06:22 PM
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I also thought of Paul Thompson when I saw Johnny Gottselig's name in the OP. While Gottselig finished with more career points, Thompson was the first line LW ahead of Gottselig when they played together in Chicago. They were generally the top two forwards on the team and both played on the PP and PK, but Thompson was the one who played on the first line (at a time when shifts were about 3 minutes long and first lines generally matched up against opposing first lines.)

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12-17-2012, 06:58 PM
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Here's a list of a bunch of players who I found to be notable to retire before 1941 and play a decent number of NHL games after 1917. It's in random order and includes some HOfers though the year of retirement does increase going down the list. Maybe some forgotten name sticks out for someone.

Pitre, Didier Fwd/D
Cameron, Harry D
Gerard, Eddie D
Malone, Joe
Darragh, Jack
Prodger, Goldie D/Fwd
Vezina, Georges G
Corbeau, Bert D
Wilson, Cully
Denneny, Cy
Cleghorn, Sprague D
Cleghorn, Odie
Boucher, Billy
Lehman, Hugh G
Broadbent, Punch
Irvin, Dick
Keats, Duke
Benedict, Clint G
Nighbor, Frank
Foyston, Frank
MacKay, Mickey
Dye, Babe
Frederickson, Frank
Boucher, Georges "Buck" D
Noble, Reg D/Fwd
Hitchman, Lionel D
Bailey, Ace
Gardiner, Charlie G
Primeau, Joe
Clancy, Francis "King" D
Mantha, Sylvio D
Morenz, Howie
Connell, Alex G
Conacher, Lionel D
Worters, Roy G
Cook, Bun
Chabot, Lorne G
Cook, Bill
Hainsworth, George G
Joliat, Aurele
Day, Hap D
Johnson, Ivan "Ching" D
Siebert, Albert "Babe" D
Thompson, Paul
Aurie, Larry
Northcott, Bobby D/Fwd
Shore, Eddie D
Kilrea, Hec
Stewart, Nels
Thompson, Tiny G
Horner, Red D
Barry, Marty
Dillon, Cecil
Romnes, Doc
Smith, Hooley D
Conacher, Charlie

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Old
12-17-2012, 07:27 PM
  #16
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I regards to Dillon : what's amazing is how many goals he scored FROM THE SECOND LINE, BEHIND Bill Cook, and with decent players but nowhere near Bread Line material (Murray Murdoch, Butch Keeling OR Paul Thompson).

I can safely say that Cecil Dillon would be a lower-tier HHOF, but also a better induction than quite a few players who are currently in.

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12-17-2012, 07:30 PM
  #17
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A missing player who was arguably better than some players named (and who's also not an HHOF'er for very obvious reasons) is George Owen. Very impressive offensive production from the blueline. And not the go-to option for his team (that was Eddie Shore) either.

But he had an extremely short career by any kind of standard.

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12-18-2012, 08:57 AM
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overpass
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MXD View Post
A missing player who was arguably better than some players named (and who's also not an HHOF'er for very obvious reasons) is George Owen. Very impressive offensive production from the blueline. And not the go-to option for his team (that was Eddie Shore) either.

But he had an extremely short career by any kind of standard.
It's hard to get a read on just how good Owen was. His unique path to the NHL tended to overshadow his on-ice play. (Owen was a multisport star at Harvard and then a broker on Wall Street before he joined the Bruins. It was a step down socially and he certainly didn't need the money, but he did it for the challenge and the love of the game.)

As a player he was a defensive sub for Boston behind Shore and Hitchman. I've read that he learned a lot from Shore, and he probably benefited from the power play offence pioneered by Art Ross, Shore, and the Bruins, where one or both defencemen (or a fourth or fifth forward on teams that didn't have an Eddie Shore) would join the attack for an extended period of time.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...n+hockey&hl=en

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Old
12-19-2012, 09:31 AM
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EagleBelfour
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Wasn't it discuss that George Owen played as a forward on some of his brilliant offensive seasons?

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Old
12-19-2012, 11:08 AM
  #20
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NHL PlayerPOSNHL SeasonsNHL First SeasonNHL Last SeasonNHL "HHOF Monitor" PTSHHOF?
Eddie "The Edmonton Express" ShoreD141926-271939-403625.80Yes
Howie "The Stratford Streak" MorenzC141923-241936-372735.00Yes
Frank "Raffles" BoucherC141921-221943-442523.50Yes
Clint "Praying Bennie" BenedictG131917-181929-302468.00Yes
Frank "The Flying Dutchman" NighborC131917-181929-302290.00Yes
Cy "The Cornwall Colt" DennenyLW121917-181928-292201.50Yes
Georges "Buck" BoucherD151917-181931-322158.00Yes
Francis "King" ClancyD161921-221936-372147.15Yes
Bill "The Mirror Man" DurnanG71943-441949-502124.50Yes
Aubrey "Dit" ClapperRW201927-281946-472073.25Yes
Frank "Mr. Zero" BrimsekG101938-391949-502070.00Yes
C.J. Syl "Slippery Syl" AppsC101936-371947-482005.00Yes
Bill CookRW111926-271936-371986.50Yes
Charlie "Big Blue Bomber" ConacherRW121929-301940-411971.90Yes
Georges "The Chicoutimi Cucumber" VezinaG91917-181925-261946.00Yes
Cecil "Tiny" ThompsonG121928-291939-401898.00Yes
Aurele "The Little Giant" JoliatLW161922-231937-381881.50Yes
Nels "Old Poison" StewartC151925-261939-401857.00Yes
Bill "Cowboy" CowleyC131934-351946-471844.50Yes
Sprague "The Big Train" CleghornD101918-191927-281842.00Yes
Eduard "Newsy" LalondeC61917-181926-271661.00Yes
Toe "Ol' Lamplighter" BlakeLW141934-351947-481655.00Yes
Cecil "Babe" DyeRW111919-201930-311634.00Yes
Earl "SI" SeibertD151931-321945-461607.95Yes
George "Little George" HainsworthG111926-271936-371579.50Yes
Harry "Cammie" CameronD61917-181922-231447.55Yes
Ebbie "Poker Face" GoodfellowD141929-301942-431397.75Yes
Reginald "Hooley" SmithC171924-251940-411285.50Yes
David "Sweeney" SchrinerLW111934-351945-461282.50Yes
Gordie "Lefty" DrillonRW71936-371942-431259.00Yes
Sylvio ManthaD141923-241936-371251.95Yes
Alec "The Ottawa Fireman" ConnellG121924-251936-371213.00Yes
Harvey "Busher" JacksonLW151929-301943-441210.00Yes
Punch "Old Elbows" BroadbentRW111918-191928-291204.00Yes
Reg "Old Sarge" NobleLW161917-181932-331203.25Yes
Chuck "Wandering Scotsman" GardinerG71927-281933-341203.00Yes
Albert "Babe" SiebertLW141925-261938-391187.25Yes
Lionel "The Big Train" ConacherD121925-261936-371156.30Yes
Syd HoweC171929-301945-461102.50Yes
Bryan Sr. "Hex" HextallRW111936-371947-481080.50Yes
Marty "Goal-a-Game" BarryC121927-281939-401070.50Yes
Joe "Phantom" MaloneC71917-181923-241036.50Yes
Ralph "Cooney" WeilandC111928-291938-39989.00Yes
Paul ThompsonLW131926-271938-39980.50 
Dave "Davey" KerrG111930-311940-41977.50 
Herbert "Buddy" O'ConnorC101941-421950-51950.00Yes
Frank "Flash" HollettD131933-341945-46945.80 
Billy "Yonkers Billy" BurchC111922-231932-33867.50Yes
Ceece "Two Gun" DillonRW101930-311939-40860.50 
Herb CainLW131933-341945-46843.00 
Ken "Big Ox" ReardonD71940-411949-50839.05Yes
Lynn PatrickLW101934-351945-46816.00Yes
Babe "The Honest Brakeman" PrattD121935-361946-47816.00Yes
Nick "Handyman" MetzLW121934-351947-48811.00 
Billy BoucherRW71921-221927-28810.00 
Roy "Shrimp" WortersG121925-261936-37808.00Yes
Joe "Gentleman Joe" PrimeauC91927-281935-36786.00Yes
Ching "The Holding Corporation" JohnsonD121926-271937-38785.45Yes
Art CoulterD111931-321941-42767.80Yes
Larry "Little Dempsey" AurieRW121927-281938-39766.50 
Jack DarraghRW61917-181923-24762.50Yes
Frederick "Bun" CookLW111926-271936-37754.50Yes
Hap "Happy" DayD141924-251937-38747.95Yes
Lorne "Chabotsky" ChabotG111926-271936-37746.50 
John "The Port Perry Woodpecker" RoachG141921-221934-35736.00 
Frank "The Slumbering Romeo" FinniganRW141923-241936-37724.50 
Johnny GottseligLW161928-291944-45716.50 
Neil ColvilleC121935-361948-49715.60Yes
Ace I. "Major Hoople Of Bracebridge" BaileyRW81926-271933-34711.00Yes
Lorne CarrRW131933-341945-46705.50 
Wally "The Whirling Dervish" StanowskiD101939-401950-51668.20 
Phil WatsonC131935-361947-48662.50 
John "Mum" MowersG41940-411946-47655.50 
Corbett "Flash" DennenyC91917-181927-28643.00 
Ogilvie "Odie" CleghornRW101918-191927-28638.50 
Lionel "Hitch" HitchmanD121922-231933-34633.10 
Clint "Snuffy" SmithC111936-371946-47626.00Yes
Norm "Normie" SmithG81931-321944-45621.50 
Hec "Hurricane Hec" KilreaLW151925-261939-40619.50 
Wilfred "Bucko" McdonaldD111934-351944-45608.55 
Bill ThomsC131932-331944-45608.50 
Ken "Pepper Kid" RandallD101917-181926-27602.40 
Mush "The Mighty Midget" MarchRW171928-291944-45602.00 
Lawrence "Baldy" NorthcottLW111928-291938-39596.00 
Jack "The Round Squire of Grasmere" CrawfordD131937-381949-50591.50 
Tom AndersonLW81934-351941-42582.50 
Erhardt "Ott" HellerD151931-321945-46576.30 
Eddie GerardLW61917-181922-23574.15Yes
Johnny "Black Cat" GagnonRW101930-311939-40555.50 
Herbie "The Duke Of Duluth" LewisLW111928-291938-39550.00Yes
Bob "Rugged" DavidsonLW121934-351945-46549.50 
Red "The Big Bad Wolf" HornerD121928-291939-40532.20Yes
Alfred "Pit" LepineC131925-261937-38510.50 
Elwyn "Doc" RomnesC101930-311939-40502.50 
Murray "Mudhooks" MurdochC111926-271936-37502.50 
Modere "Mud" BruneteauRW111935-361945-46495.50 
Murph "Old Hardrock" ChamberlainLW121937-381948-49493.00 
Harry "Pee-Wee" OliverRW111926-271936-37489.50Yes
Mike "Iron Mike" KarakasG81935-361945-46487.50 
Glen HarmonD91942-431950-51470.45 
Jack J. "The Squire Of Napanee" AdamsC71917-181926-27469.00Yes
Wilf "Petch" CudeG101930-311940-41457.50 
John "Long John" SorrellLW111930-311940-41451.00 
Carl "Lefty" LiscombeLW91937-381945-46448.00 
Joe "Dad" CarvethRW111940-411950-51437.00 
Cy "Cyclone" WentworthD131927-281939-40423.10 
Jimmy WardRW121927-281938-39422.50 
Art JacksonC111934-351944-45419.00 
Butch "The Oil Man Of Owen Sound" KeelingLW121926-271937-38412.50 
Herb GardinerD31926-271928-29409.00Yes
Baldy "The Cork Screw" CottonLW121925-261936-37403.50 
Bob GracieC91930-311938-39396.00 
George ManthaLW131928-291940-41393.00 
Eddie "Pee Wee" WisemanRW101932-331941-42388.50 
Alex "Shab" ShibickyRW81935-361945-46380.50 
Don "Count" GrossoC91938-391946-47379.00 
Gord "Gosh" PettingerLW81932-331939-40363.00 
Albert "Battleship" LeducD101925-261934-35360.30 
Norm "Dutch" GainorC71927-281934-35354.00 
Reg HamiltonD121935-361946-47353.30 
Didier "Cannonball" PitreRW61917-181922-23351.00Yes
Red "Mervyn" DuttonD101926-271935-36350.10Yes
Bert "Old Pig Iron" CorbeauD101917-181926-27347.90 
Billy "Beaver" CoutuD101917-181926-27347.25 
Pat "Wild Tad From Tundras" EganD111939-401950-51346.30 
Bill "Bashin' Bill" BarilkoD51946-471950-51339.15 
Art ChapmanC101930-311939-40338.00 
Dave TrottierLW111928-291938-39337.50 
Marty BurkeD111927-281937-38334.20 
Ray GetliffeC101935-361944-45334.00 
Carson "Bullet" CooperRW81924-251931-32334.00 
Jimmy "Sailor" HerbertsC61924-251929-30328.50 
Jake "Jumpin' Jakie" ForbesG131919-201932-33326.50 
Taffy "Mountain Of Mutton" AbelD81926-271933-34326.25 
Andy BlairC91928-291936-37322.50 
Norman "Bud" PoileRW71942-431949-50321.00 
Louis BerlinguetteLW81917-181925-26319.00 
Duncan "Dunc" MunroD81924-251931-32315.50 
Alex "Mine Boy" LevinskyD91930-311938-39313.85 
Joe "Bad Joe" HallD21917-181918-19311.90Yes
Frank "Buzz" BollLW121932-331943-44311.00 
Mel "Sudden Death" HillRW91937-381945-46310.00 
Douglas "The Gleichen Cowboy" YoungD101931-321940-41309.40 
George "Red" HamillLW121937-381950-51303.00 


Last edited by pnep: 12-19-2012 at 02:34 PM.
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Old
12-19-2012, 12:07 PM
  #21
Elever
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How do you judge the dmen from pre-40s for the HHOF monitor? They usually produced little offense and I know it can be adjusted but if most of them rarely crossed the blue line then it's pointless and there also weren't real time stats or +/-. I'm assuming these are the things being used for assigning pts? What would the cut-off be for who should be in the HHOF? 700? 750?

#1 - Adj. GMS
#2 - Adj. PTS or Adj.WINS
#3 - Adj. PO GMS
#4 - Adj. PO PTS or Adj.PO WINS
#5 - Capt.
#6 - HARTS
#7 - HART Runner Up
#8 - 1 ALL STARS
#9 - 2 ALL STARS
#10 - GOAL #1
#11 - GOAL #2
#12 - PTS #1
#13 - PTS #2
#14 - NORRIS
#15 - NORRIS Runner Up
#16 - VEZINAS
#17 - VEZINA Runner Up
#18 - CONN SMYTHE
#19 - CUPS
#20 - FINALS

Also is it accounting too much for Stanley Cups? Metz for example won 4 with the Leafs but I dont' think he was ever one of their leading pt scorers. Played 518 games, had 250 pts, his adjusted pts total is 450 384. I don't see any individual awards or top 10 in goals/assists/pts.


Last edited by Elever: 12-19-2012 at 12:15 PM.
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Old
12-19-2012, 01:28 PM
  #22
pnep
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"HHOF Monitor" formula for DEF =

Adjusted Games/5 +
Adjusted Pts/10 +
Adjusted PO Games/2 +
Adjusted PO Pts/4 +

Captainship - "HHOF Monitor" 15 pts per season +

Top 10 in Goals after Season - "HHOF Monitor" 10 pts +
# 1 in Goals after Season - "HHOF Monitor" 100 pts +
# 2 in Goals after Season - "HHOF Monitor" 70 pts +
Top 10 in PTS after Season - "HHOF Monitor" 10 pts +
# 1 in PTS after Season - "HHOF Monitor" 150 pts +
# 2 in PTS after Season - "HHOF Monitor" 100 pts +

Cup - "HHOF Monitor" 50 pts (minimum 5 Adj PO GMS) +
Final - "HHOF Monitor" 25 pts (minimum 5 Adj PO GMS) +

All Star Game - "HHOF Monitor" 5 pts +

HART - "HHOF Monitor" 150 pts +
HART Runner Up - "HHOF Monitor" 100 pts +

1 ALL STAR TEAM - "HHOF Monitor" 75 pts +
2 ALL STAR TEAM - "HHOF Monitor" 50 pts +

CALDER - "HHOF Monitor" 50 pts +
CALDER Runner Up - "HHOF Monitor" 30 pts +

NORRIS - "HHOF Monitor" 150 pts +
NORRIS Runner UP - "HHOF Monitor" 125 pts +

CONN SMYTHE - "HHOF Monitor" 100 pts

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12-19-2012, 01:30 PM
  #23
Mike Farkas
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12-19-2012, 01:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QuietCompany View Post
Also is it accounting too much for Stanley Cups? Metz for example won 4 with the Leafs but I dont' think he was ever one of their leading pt scorers. Played 518 games, had 250 pts, his adjusted pts total is 450 384. I don't see any individual awards or top 10 in goals/assists/pts.
Metz have 5 Retro. Selke's

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12-20-2012, 02:11 PM
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Would anyone know anything about the following players and how good they might have been? Some of them aren't on that HHOF monitor above though I'd guess that the majority would be below 500.

All of them minus Mickey Roach, Hebert, and Milks won a championship and they all played 200+ games. Hebert and Milks' adjusted pts totals are fairly good.

Alex Smith
Mickey Roach
Jimmy Herbert
Hib Milks
Albert Leduc
Bert McCaffrey
Billy Coutu
Normie Himes


Last edited by Elever: 12-20-2012 at 02:30 PM.
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