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Old
12-23-2012, 11:03 PM
  #201
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Originally Posted by harpoon View Post
Its not just the skill, you'd need to transplant the heart as well ...

I would hope so.
But what I actually asked was if you would be willing to bet against Gagner scoring seventy points within the next few seasons.

I know you won't, but you should take a look at Gagner's career accomplishments .... on the worst team in the league, playing 70% of his games with no-names and borderline NHLers. This is a player who wants to succeed and so far has succeeded at every level and on every stage .... I never bet against guys like that, no matter how "small" they are.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Gagner
Sure what you want to bet. He won't get 70 points in the next two years.

70% of his games with nobodies. Pfft you've already been proven to be BSing. Hemsky, Penner, Hall, Smyth, Eberle all say hi. SS has played 99% of his games over the last 4 seasons on the top 2 lines, and those have been our top 6 wingers. For at least 70% of the games.

ps: Paajarvi has thrown more hits in OKC this season that Gager has in his NHL career. Might want to watch a few games so you don't continue to trash a player who you haven't watched in almost a year.

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12-23-2012, 11:07 PM
  #202
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Originally Posted by nabob View Post
Sure what you want to bet. He won't get 70 points in the next two years.

70% of his games with nobodies. Pfft you've already been proven to be BSing. Hemsky, Penner, Hall, Smyth, Eberle all say hi. SS has played 99% of his games over the last 4 seasons on the top 2 lines, and those have been our top 6 wingers. For at least 70% of the games.

ps: Paajarvi has thrown more hits in OKC this season that Gager has in his NHL career. Might want to watch a few games so you don't continue to trash a player who you haven't watched in almost a year.
I don't even want to start with this because I guarantee almost all of this is untrue. You clearly hate Gags

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12-23-2012, 11:15 PM
  #203
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Originally Posted by The Nuge View Post
I don't even want to start with this because I guarantee almost all of this is untrue. You clearly hate Gags
It's really not. He has gotten tons of top 6 time throughout his career outside of the first half of last season and a short lived demotion in the Quinn year. He has played with the likes of Hall, Eberle, Hemsky and Penner during that time. Which part is untrue?

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12-23-2012, 11:48 PM
  #204
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Originally Posted by nabob View Post
Sure what you want to bet. He won't get 70 points in the next two years.
If we had had a season this year I'd have been comfortable saying he would get seventy points while still a twenty five year old. With the lost year I'll take the bet if you extend it through to the end of his twenty six year old season. You can pick the stakes.

Quote:
70% of his games with nobodies. Pfft you've already been proven to be BSing. Hemsky, Penner, Hall, Smyth, Eberle all say hi. SS has played 99% of his games over the last 4 seasons on the top 2 lines, and those have been our top 6 wingers.
OK 70% was an exaggeration.

But for his first three seasons there was no Smyth, Eberle or Hall. His first three seasons consisted of the kind of linemates I already posted earlier in this thread. It would absolutely be fair to say that Gagner has played half of his NHL games with no hopers and fringe NHLers, and that when given the chance to play with players like Penner and Eberle he played extremely well.

Quote:
ps: Paajarvi has thrown more hits in OKC this season that Gager has in his NHL career.
An absolute falsehood. This is a perfect example of you trying to search through a pile of dust to find a penny - as you always do with MPS.

The other bet that is still open to you (and one that I notice you have been studiously ignoring) is the bet that MPS will never reach the point totals that Gagner has already put up in the NHL. That's 220 NHL points.

Quote:
Might want to watch a few games so you don't continue to trash a player who you haven't watched in almost a year.
I've missed several games I admit, but I've seen way more than half of the AHL games this season. I frequently see MPS skating hard and accomplishing nothing. Its quite sad actually. I feel terrible for him.

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12-24-2012, 12:09 PM
  #205
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Originally Posted by The Nuge View Post
I don't even want to start with this because I guarantee almost all of this is untrue. You clearly hate Gags
A good decision.

Why do people even respond to his posts. Nabob has 25 posts in the thread saying the same thing that he says in any thread on Gagner. Nabob has 12% of the posts in the thread. I would say fervent dislike.

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12-24-2012, 12:16 PM
  #206
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Maybe he needs a coffee?

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12-24-2012, 12:34 PM
  #207
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Maybe he needs a coffee?
Folgers?

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12-24-2012, 12:38 PM
  #208
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Ok I'm wrong. Gagner is clearly the next Gretzky, Sakic, Yzerman, Savard as others have said in this thread. He isn't an undersized, weak on the puck, poor on faceoffs, turnover prone, inconsistent 40 point player. He is the perfect compliment as a #2C to RNH as he has all the similar skill sets yet is vastly inferior in every way. He will magically become a 70-80 point player while on the 2nd line even though he has barely been a 40 point player playing mostly in first line offensive situations with sheltered defensive responsibliities, and 60-70+ point linemates his whole career.

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12-24-2012, 12:45 PM
  #209
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Originally Posted by nabob View Post
Ok I'm wrong. Gagner is clearly the next Gretzky, Sakic, Yzerman, Savard as others have said in this thread. He isn't an undersized, weak on the puck, poor on faceoffs, turnover prone, inconsistent 40 point player. He is the perfect compliment as a #2C to RNH as he has all the similar skill sets yet is vastly inferior in every way. He will magically become a 70-80 point player while on the 2nd line even though he has barely been a 40 point player playing mostly in first line offensive situations with sheltered defensive responsibliities, and 60-70+ point linemates his whole career.
Nobody is saying he's the second coming, but he's still young. HF's prospect flavour of the month, Gustav Nyquist, is born within a month of him for crying out loud. Gags is a guy who will go out and put up at least 45 points, and do whatever it takes to win. Would it be better if he was 6'3, 230? Sure. But Gags has heart. He's never going to be the guy floating around waiting for someone to pass him the puck.

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12-24-2012, 01:02 PM
  #210
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Originally Posted by nabob View Post
Ok I'm wrong. Gagner is clearly the next Gretzky, Sakic, Yzerman, Savard as others have said in this thread. He isn't an undersized, weak on the puck, poor on faceoffs, turnover prone, inconsistent 40 point player. He is the perfect compliment as a #2C to RNH as he has all the similar skill sets yet is vastly inferior in every way. He will magically become a 70-80 point player while on the 2nd line even though he has barely been a 40 point player playing mostly in first line offensive situations with sheltered defensive responsibliities, and 60-70+ point linemates his whole career.
Well, you do have the right to your opinion. But citing all of Gagner's weaknesses without giving credit to his strengths isn't exactly fair either. The guy does have some very good hockey and personal qualities that I maintain will allow him to develop into the player some of us think he will/can become.

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12-24-2012, 01:08 PM
  #211
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Originally Posted by nabob View Post
Ok I'm wrong. Gagner is clearly the next Gretzky, Sakic, Yzerman, Savard as others have said in this thread. He isn't an undersized, weak on the puck, poor on faceoffs, turnover prone, inconsistent 40 point player. He is the perfect compliment as a #2C to RNH as he has all the similar skill sets yet is vastly inferior in every way. He will magically become a 70-80 point player while on the 2nd line even though he has barely been a 40 point player playing mostly in first line offensive situations with sheltered defensive responsibliities, and 60-70+ point linemates his whole career.
Yeah that pretty much sums up everybodies argument...

Oh my God this is the most irrational reply i've seen in some time. Talk about hyperbolizing people's postion and entirely ignoring the context/point behind it.

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12-24-2012, 01:45 PM
  #212
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Originally Posted by Dorian2 View Post
Well, you do have the right to your opinion. But citing all of Gagner's weaknesses without giving credit to his strengths isn't exactly fair either. The guy does have some very good hockey and personal qualities that I maintain will allow him to develop into the player some of us think he will/can become.
good player but he is a step below Hall, Eberle, Yakupov, RNH and even Hemsky in terms of his offensive 'strengths'.
If we go with 3 scoring lines only then I can see him being part of this organization.

Hartikainen-RNH-Eberle
xxxx-Horcoff-Yakupov
Hall-Gagner-Hemsky

with xxx possibly being Smyth for now but someone like Horton long term.

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12-24-2012, 02:10 PM
  #213
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Originally Posted by Petro Points View Post
good player but he is a step below Hall, Eberle, Yakupov, RNH and even Hemsky in terms of his offensive 'strengths'.
If we go with 3 scoring lines only then I can see him being part of this organization.

Hartikainen-RNH-Eberle
xxxx-Horcoff-Yakupov
Hall-Gagner-Hemsky

with xxx possibly being Smyth for now but someone like Horton long term.
Absolutely he's below those players as far as offense and even talent. I think that some of the other strengths he has (role player, doesn't give up, not a lazy player, getting better at face offs, continues to work on his defensive weaknesses every year)....not to mention something that he hasn't really been given credit for, his experience, all will help to form that key player that doesn't do anything particularly great, except for in 8 point games, but will definitely contribute to the entire teams progression, and ultimately their success in the playoffs.

I know some disagree, but I really really do believe he does and will contribute more than he is ever given credit for.

As a side note, I don't usually pump players tires, but Gags is a player that I stand behind 100%. I think he's a needed commodity on this team.

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12-24-2012, 02:26 PM
  #214
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Originally Posted by Petro Points View Post
good player but he is a step below Hall, Eberle, Yakupov, RNH and even Hemsky in terms of his offensive 'strengths'.
If we go with 3 scoring lines only then I can see him being part of this organization.

Hartikainen-RNH-Eberle
xxxx-Horcoff-Yakupov
Hall-Gagner-Hemsky

with xxx possibly being Smyth for now but someone like Horton long term.
One of those lines gets buttersoft minutes. They can rotate every game...

More Scoring Necessary.

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12-24-2012, 02:40 PM
  #215
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Originally Posted by nofool6110 View Post
One of those lines gets buttersoft minutes. They can rotate every game...

More Scoring Necessary.
and... instead of getting gritty\physical guys to compliment... they can learn the skill of 'agitate + turtle' from their AHL opponents.

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12-24-2012, 03:51 PM
  #216
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Originally Posted by Petro Points View Post
good player but he is a step below Hall, Eberle, Yakupov, RNH and even Hemsky in terms of his offensive 'strengths'.
If we go with 3 scoring lines only then I can see him being part of this organization.

Hartikainen-RNH-Eberle
xxxx-Horcoff-Yakupov
Hall-Gagner-Hemsky

with xxx possibly being Smyth for now but someone like Horton long term.
Why do you hate Yakupov?

On the Gagner front, I'm not super interesting in jumping in on this battle again. So I'll just state again that I'm with the group that still sees a young player with potential there. He may not be the perfect number 2C down the road. But he's good enough for now, and I think he'll raise his trade value over the next 2+ seasons playing with talent like Hall, Eberle, Yakupov and Hemsky. Jmo.

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12-24-2012, 04:12 PM
  #217
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For the pro Ganer crew out there, an honest question. July 1 of this year he will be an RFA with one year until he hits UFA status. I would expect that if he is not offered a muliti-year deal that appeals to him by the Oilers he will elect to go to arbitration. Just my opinion but I think he will be looking for 3-5 years in the $4M+ range which to me is not what is in the Oilers best interests.

Is this way off, reasonable? What sort of contract would you offer him that you feels he would accept and that you feel is not going to damage his value going forward if he never takes the next step that people on here feel he may.


Last edited by Fourier: 12-24-2012 at 05:23 PM.
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12-24-2012, 04:25 PM
  #218
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For the pro Ganer crew out there, an hinest question. July 1 of this year he will be an RFA with one year until he hits UFA status. I would expect that if he is not offered a muliti-year deal that appeals to him by the Oilers he will elect to go to arbitration. Just my opinion but I think he will be looking for 3-5 years in the $4M+ range which to me is not what is in the Oilers best interests.

Is this way off, reasonable? What sort of contract would you offer him that you feels he would accept and that you feel is not going to damage his value going forward if he never takes the next step that people on here feel he may.
This season is make or break, at least for me. If Gagner can't pass 50p, and do it fairly easily with the talent on the wings he'll have at his disposal, then we need to move him.

But if he can approach 50%, be a + player and get 60p+ I would be fine with offering him a 3 or 4 year deal at around 4M+. Depending on the cap and CBA rules of course. I don't see why that would be against our interests. Even if we decide 2 years into a 4 or 5 year deal that we needed more size at 2C, there should be a few teams looking for a 60p C.

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12-24-2012, 05:05 PM
  #219
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If there's no hockey this year, I don't see how Gagner could expect to get $4M on his next contract. And that's under the current CBA. Who knows what the next CBA is going to look like, but it does seem like there will be less money going to the players, not more.

But even if things are generally the same, and they do give Gagner a long term $4M contract, I still don't see it as a problem. Either he develops into the kind of offensive player everyone hopes for (and already is to some extent) or remains the same and is moved. It's not like he'd be untradeable at $4M.

He's our best option at 2C, and until someone comes along who's better, there's no sense in getting rid of him or letting him walk as a free agent. It's easy to say "oh, just use that money to sign player X as a free agent" or "draft so-and-so" because 2Cs who are upgrades on Gagner don't often reach free agency, and if they do it's usually to sign elsewhere and for too much money (Leino/Connolly/Jokinen/etc.), and the draft is no guarantee. Unless you've got a top 2-3 pick, the odds of a player being able to step in are poor. The odds of that player being able to step in AND be an upgrade on Gagner within his first year or two are incredibly slim.

A bird in hand...

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12-24-2012, 05:21 PM
  #220
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Originally Posted by harpoon View Post
If we had had a season this year I'd have been comfortable saying he would get seventy points while still a twenty five year old. With the lost year I'll take the bet if you extend it through to the end of his twenty six year old season. You can pick the stakes.

The other bet that is still open to you (and one that I notice you have been studiously ignoring) is the bet that MPS will never reach the point totals that Gagner has already put up in the NHL. That's 220 NHL points.
No extension for another season. He gets two years to hit the 70+ point plateau you are so sure he can hit. The 2013-14 and 2014-15 seasons. He should be continuing to improve his game this season so it is not lost as there was no way he was going to get there this year anyway.

I've said before I'd take the bet on MPS hitting 220 career points. Piece of cake.

Gagner bet:
I win - you stop stalking, and sport an avatar if my choice for a whole season

You win - I never refer to SS as SS again, and the same avatar bet.

Paajarvi bet:
I win - You admit you and your hotdog budy were wrong all along, sport an avatar of choice for life, and don't post a comment about Paajarvi for a year.

You win - I admit I was wrong. Sport an avatar of choice for life, and I don't post a comment relating to Paajarvi for a year.


Last edited by nabob: 12-24-2012 at 10:48 PM.
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12-24-2012, 06:30 PM
  #221
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@Fourier

5 years at 4 Mill?

Sign me up yesterday (Assuming no dramatic cap change in the new CBA). A 70 million dollar cap sees the average salary of a player on a cap team make 3 million. Gagner is better than average and giving him 1 million more than average and not even 6% of the cap is just fine with me, in fact i think it will be a bargin in the latter years. Currently 4 million is what a 2nd liner costs, and i only see Gagner improving. It would remind me of the Hemsky deal/gamble but for a bit of a lesser talent.

P.S. I know Hemsky got 4 million too but the cap was a lot lower. As i'm sure you know Gagner at 4 million of a 70 million cap takes less capspace than Hemsky did at 4m at a 55m (or so) cap (5.7% compared to 7.2%).

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12-24-2012, 06:40 PM
  #222
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Originally Posted by s7ark View Post
Why do you hate Yakupov?

On the Gagner front, I'm not super interesting in jumping in on this battle again. So I'll just state again that I'm with the group that still sees a young player with potential there. He may not be the perfect number 2C down the road. But he's good enough for now, and I think he'll raise his trade value over the next 2+ seasons playing with talent like Hall, Eberle, Yakupov and Hemsky. Jmo.
meh... he would work his way up the lineup 5on5 and im sure would be getting prime PP minutes.
Being on Horc's line will let him continue to be the last forward back until he gets familiar with things.

IMO Yakupov will be a tier above Eberle when its all said and done so there is no hating here.

4M for Gagner would not be smart investment. But if there is no one better willing to sign with us or if we cant draft a Lazar then I guess it would be ok...

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12-24-2012, 06:48 PM
  #223
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Originally Posted by misfit View Post

A bird in hand...
sometimes a bird in hand stops your from reaching the bigger goal...
Tambo has proven that he is willing to let things unfold and only make a move if there is no other choice.

losing the bird in hand can force his hands and help us get a better 'bird'

An opening on the roster can also help attract quality NHLers who are looking for a new path.. ala J.Schultz, guys like MArleau and Getzlaf can consider a team like EDM if there was an opening..

same with guys like Bernier\Luongo\Thomas... they woulve considered EDM if EDM hadnt locked up Dubnyk to a new contract..

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12-24-2012, 06:56 PM
  #224
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Originally Posted by Petro Points View Post
sometimes a bird in hand stops your from reaching the bigger goal...
Tambo has proven that he is willing to let things unfold and only make a move if there is no other choice.

losing the bird in hand can force his hands and help us get a better 'bird'

An opening on the roster can also help attract quality NHLers who are looking for a new path.. ala J.Schultz, guys like MArleau and Getzlaf can consider a team like EDM if there was an opening..

same with guys like Bernier\Luongo\Thomas... they woulve considered EDM if EDM hadnt locked up Dubnyk to a new contract..
So now Tambo sucks for signing our starting goalie and #2C? If Getzlaf is interested in Edmonton, he can sign here and I'm sure Tambo can move Gags easily enough.

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12-24-2012, 07:08 PM
  #225
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Originally Posted by Fourier View Post
For the pro Ganer crew out there, an honest question. July 1 of this year he will be an RFA with one year until he hits UFA status. I would expect that if he is not offered a muliti-year deal that appeals to him by the Oilers he will elect to go to arbitration. Just my opinion but I think he will be looking for 3-5 years in the $4M+ range which to me is not what is in the Oilers best interests.

Is this way off, reasonable? What sort of contract would you offer him that you feels he would accept and that you feel is not going to damage his value going forward if he never takes the next step that people on here feel he may.
This is how I see it too. IMHO, this was the last contract they were willing to give him hoping he could break out--so that he could either be re-signed to a long extension or to boost his trade value.

IMHO, if the season is cancelled, Gagner is as good as gone in the off-season. The question is whether they could get a steady No.4-5 D-man for him or not.

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