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2012-13 Lockout Discussion Part X: Is There Any Hope? Edition

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12-19-2012, 11:25 PM
  #126
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I lifted this from the main board (taken from the oilers board).

Is there any validity to this post? It's way beyond my knowledge of the NHL.
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Originally Posted by oilinblood View Post
If you are referring to the voiding of contracts...it is specifically stated in the SPC that every player signed.
Yes it is specifically stated that without a CBA it has no value, and any successor CBA will change the terms of the SPC andvalue of the contract.

About 4 months ago i hinted at all of this being a possible end game but no one believed me. the conversation came from teams continuing to sign players and some fans thinking the players were right in their sense of entitlement to what they signed. My point was that not signing players would look like collusion... and that the SPC clearly states those contracts are of a certain share value for the PA revenue portion. That is all they are share size of the PA portion. They arent entitled to any specific cash value.
Remember when everyone was asking if Bettman and the league would throw out the Dipietro contract because it was the first that went beyond the CBA? Bettmans response was that it was a proper contract so it was allowed but would be held to the terms of any future successor CBA and that in signing the contract the player was agreeing to that in exchange for the security of a guarantee of employment in the NHL.

Its been known for a long time. I suspect the reason why Bob Mac and others havent talked about it much is becuase they dont need to and also i dont think the professionals want to kick Bettmans plan.

I have also been very clear since before the lockout that the league has looked into centralizing contracts. Supporting other leagues - transfer funds for NHL players, transfer deals... has greatly helped the NHLs position to centralize their contracts and run as one entity which happens to have different regional branches. Its a unique position to the NHL that they clearly have competition at home and abroad for player services and it would be the NHLs position that it is the BRANDING and ENTERTAINMENT packaging, combined with BUSINESS DECISIONS that seperates it from the competitors and not some idea of market control. The players have happily proven this. Coke doesnt have a monopoly and make more than most countries just because Pepsi sucks. Coke advertises and packages and has its own product which out earns others and can use its market influence to make relationships and ask those partners to not sell cmpeting products. completely legal. Try getting a Coke at KFC. The NHL is the best league but not because it is a monopoly...its because they are the COKE of their industry. Guilty of nothing. Companies are free to try to compete and do.

In the early spring of 2004- as word got out Bettman was going to formally file for legal right to allow replacement players- the League got an offer for the purchase of the league. Under the 300M dollar purchase the league would be re-organized to be centrally controlled and contracted. the franchises or branches would still be individually owned but the league headquarters would do all contracts and negotiations and determine who plays where. There would be an end to the draft (something that has always made it impossible to centralize the business) and RFA/UFA.
Bettman, as was his duty, informed the BOG and owners of the offer but advised them against it. Everything the league and frnachises had been short term and long term building towards would be erased or in jeopardy. Also Bettman had a very strong belief that fans, who already blamed him for missed goals, off sides, and hole in nets.. pretty much making him out to be in control of the games, would start calling games as fixed by him and head office officials. For the good of the game and the franchises the cost certainty of centralizing wasnot very attractive. Also the NHL did not have as many world wide competitors. Now the situations have changed.

Did the NHL want this? I said 4 months ago that this is something Bettman and the NHL never wanted but if it comes to it they will get cost certainty in a big way. the nhl will control all contracts because it will legally be the business with franchises as only branches of the main NHL arm. Franchise values qwill skyrocket.
The NHL will make unilateral business decisions regarding labor costs, allignment, expansion, exhibition, relocation and a host of other topics. No union to have to deal with.
But the NHL as we know it would no longer exist.

IVE TALKED ABOUT THIS SINCE AUGUST. The league is definitely not surprised or worried. They gave their best offer as well. Dont expect the NHL to feel pushed in a corner...they have been prepared all along (not all summer ...ALL ALONG...the SPC made in 05 shows how prepared they are)

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12-19-2012, 11:59 PM
  #127
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Well, I would hope so, or else Bill Daly will look like a huge schmuck with his "there will be a season" proclamation.
That is not true what Dreger said. Those partner calls don't always precede big announcements. They are meant to keep transparent to league business partners and gives those executives an opportunity to voice any questions and hear directly from Daly and Bettman.

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12-20-2012, 12:49 AM
  #128
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They want to restart talks, stop yapping to the media wasting everyone's time. Pick up the phone and make the call.

That's the problem, they don't want to restart talks, they don't want to resolve anything, and they don't give a **** about the fans. Dont patronize us and don't insult our intelligence.

They have about two weeks to finalize a new CBA or this and potentially the start of next season are wiped out. With this thing potentially being dragged through court for months on end.

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12-20-2012, 06:28 AM
  #129
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Free agency will remain at 7 or 27. Arbitration will remain at 4 years for players 18-20 signing their first SPC. You would assume the 21,22,23 and 24 year old age groups for salary arbitration will remain the same. Entry level contracts remain at 3 years. So while the system changes to 50-50(eventually with the $300M make whole)and there will be contract limits,the other tools remain the same. We discussed the impact of the CBA and Nash last winter. The NHL wants to drop the cap to $60M while the PA is proposing $67.25M for two years. Compromise and set it at $64.3M for 2 years. Amnesty/compliance buyouts. Follow the NBA model. NBA set the cap at $58,044,000 which was the 10-11 salary cap number. In the NBA,the amnesty buyouts counted against the players share but not against the cap or the luxury tax. The players wants amnesty buyouts. The NHL doesn't want money outside the system. Compromise. The buyout money counts against the players share but not against the cap. Follow the NBA model. Larry Brooks proposed that 10 days ago.

Redden,Gomez and Olesz are the 3 definite compliance buyout candidates. 2/3 paid out over the remaining term. Redden is owed $3,333,333 for the 2nd year(13-14)instead of $5M. The 12-13 or just 13 will be a 48 game season/100 plus day season. Pro-rate that with the $5M for 12-13.

Gomez is owed $4.5M in 13-14. $3M buyout. $5.5M salary for 12-13. Olesz is owed $4.25M for 13-14. $2,833,333 buyout. $4M salary in 12-13.

$9,166,666 in buyout dollars for 13-14 between those 3 players. Count it against the players share. The owners actually save money.

Rational minds can find a solution

The NBA amnesty was 1 buyout per team for a player on the roster when the lockout started. Teams have the option of using at any point in the 10 year CBA with an opt-out after 6 years. The NHL might not like the teams holding amnesty option to use in future years.

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12-20-2012, 06:37 AM
  #130
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Originally Posted by in the hall View Post
That is not true what Dreger said. Those partner calls don't always precede big announcements. They are meant to keep transparent to league business partners and gives those executives an opportunity to voice any questions and hear directly from Daly and Bettman.
It wasn't Dreger. It was Daren Millard.

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12-20-2012, 07:46 AM
  #131
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Free agency will remain at 7 or 27. Arbitration will remain at 4 years for players 18-20 signing their first SPC. You would assume the 21,22,23 and 24 year old age groups for salary arbitration will remain the same. Entry level contracts remain at 3 years. So while the system changes to 50-50(eventually with the $300M make whole)and there will be contract limits,the other tools remain the same. We discussed the impact of the CBA and Nash last winter. The NHL wants to drop the cap to $60M while the PA is proposing $67.25M for two years. Compromise and set it at $64.3M for 2 years. Amnesty/compliance buyouts. Follow the NBA model. NBA set the cap at $58,044,000 which was the 10-11 salary cap number. In the NBA,the amnesty buyouts counted against the players share but not against the cap or the luxury tax. The players wants amnesty buyouts. The NHL doesn't want money outside the system. Compromise. The buyout money counts against the players share but not against the cap. Follow the NBA model. Larry Brooks proposed that 10 days ago.

Redden,Gomez and Olesz are the 3 definite compliance buyout candidates. 2/3 paid out over the remaining term. Redden is owed $3,333,333 for the 2nd year(13-14)instead of $5M. The 12-13 or just 13 will be a 48 game season/100 plus day season. Pro-rate that with the $5M for 12-13.

Gomez is owed $4.5M in 13-14. $3M buyout. $5.5M salary for 12-13. Olesz is owed $4.25M for 13-14. $2,833,333 buyout. $4M salary in 12-13.

$9,166,666 in buyout dollars for 13-14 between those 3 players. Count it against the players share. The owners actually save money.

Rational minds can find a solution

The NBA amnesty was 1 buyout per team for a player on the roster when the lockout started. Teams have the option of using at any point in the 10 year CBA with an opt-out after 6 years. The NHL might not like the teams holding amnesty option to use in future years.
Amnesty buyouts will be prt of final agreement IMO. That will be the one small bone thrown to teams like NYR, Mon, Tor who have lost millions fighting for small markets and then will be forced to partially dismantle their team to get to $60m next year. The reality is that there might only be 8-12 buyouts league wide. We'd be talking about maybe $100m total, maybe less.

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12-20-2012, 08:13 AM
  #132
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Originally Posted by ltrangerfan View Post
I lifted this from the main board (taken from the oilers board).

Is there any validity to this post? It's way beyond my knowledge of the NHL.
I don't really know but I would take anything someone says with authority about the lockout with a HUGE grain of salt at this point. I don't think a random hfboards poster has any real insight into this, or any real idea how stuff like contracts or lawsuits will play out.

Anyone claiming to know how sure the NHL is feeling about how an anti-trust lawsuit will pan out is full of it or simply putting forth the company line from the NHL. No one really knows for sure how things will go down if all the lawsuits proceed, and if nothing else, this is EXACTLY what the NBA did, except they filed their lawsuit against the NBAPA months and months earlier than the NHL filed theirs.

So far, we know what to expect based on what the NBA did last year. Once these things actually start getting processed in court and the season is called and the lawsuits move forward, we're more or less into uncharted territory and when either side starts claiming that they're "right" or "confident of their interpretation/chances/legality" or whatever, then you can be sure it's ******** bluster because neither side is going to say "yeah our case is weak" or "we have no clue what the judge will say"

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12-20-2012, 08:19 AM
  #133
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DiPietro is a buyout candidate. Is he healthy enough to be bought out? Injured players can't be bought out. DiPietro and the PA would probably contest it. He is owed $36M starting in 13-14. $4.5M per. 8 years. $24M would be owed in the buyout. $3M per. Unless Philly besides to cut bait their space cadet in net,none of the long term contracts are on the chopping block. Keith Ballard in VAN could be another buyout. He has 2 more seasons after this left. Its not crazy money. If Gary is so concerned about money outside the system,count it against the players share like the NBA. Its a one time deal. One per team. It has to be completed before the start of the 12-13 or 13 season. Over 40% of the NHL wipes away a significant amount of salary for 12-13 with a 48 game season. So its only 1 year for the obvious buyout candidates. The players should accept the 10 year CBA. Doesn't sound like the players are set against it. Gary will be in Key West living in some mansion in retirement when the new CBA expires. The $300 make whole is tied to the long term CBA.

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12-20-2012, 08:55 AM
  #134
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Rational minds can find a solution
What about irrational minds?

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12-20-2012, 08:59 AM
  #135
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I definitely hear and respect your point that the market will be reset with the new CBA. I still think, however low you project our RFAs it is going to be tough to fit them all under 60M without shedding something big (aka Gabby). Trust me I wish it were not the case.
Maybe there will be some kind of "buying/trading cap space from teams who want to spend less" provision.

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12-20-2012, 09:09 AM
  #136
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I'm not even going to waste my time like you guys are. I don't have to explain anything to you. All you guys are doing is bickering over hearsay. You don't know at all what is going to happen. I'm not going to sit here and get swallowed up by this bs over something that doesn't even exist aka an NHL season. What mathematics do I have to pay attention to? You mean the non factual rumors of numbers being tossed out there?
To each his own. You can do whatever you want. Keep wearing the tin-foil hat and plugging your ears if it makes you feel better.

Without specific numbers, are you denying that the cap is going to go down and several younger Rangers are going to get raises?

Hearsay? the players share is going from 57% to 50% no matter what happens. Do you think that will make the cap increase? C'mon. Face it, the Rangers are going to be presented with some seriously tough decisions this summer - and Gaborik is the #1 option to clear legitimate cap space, if needed.

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12-20-2012, 09:21 AM
  #137
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If Gomez is bought out he can come back and be our third line center!


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12-20-2012, 09:25 AM
  #138
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The NHL proposal does include retaining $ in trades. A team is allowed to allocate $5M per year on their cap. They trade the player but pick up some money to move the player. It counts against the assigning/trading team cap. Teams are allowed two trades and $5M in any given season There is a formula for determing how much money. $3M or 50% of the SPC which ever is less. Brian Burke proposed that in 2007. Its under #5. The full details. http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=643570

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12-20-2012, 10:19 AM
  #139
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To each his own. You can do whatever you want. Keep wearing the tin-foil hat and plugging your ears if it makes you feel better.

Without specific numbers, are you denying that the cap is going to go down and several younger Rangers are going to get raises?

Hearsay? the players share is going from 57% to 50% no matter what happens. Do you think that will make the cap increase? C'mon. Face it, the Rangers are going to be presented with some seriously tough decisions this summer - and Gaborik is the #1 option to clear legitimate cap space, if needed.
I'm not denying the cap won't increase. But I am skeptical of the opinions that it will decrease from 64.3 to 60. Jeremy Jacobs, one of the main hawks behind all this lockout stuff, would be screwing himself. I am not ready to get into the trading gaborik talk when nothing has happened yet. There's no hockey and we are starting, imo, blind trade conversations just like we do when there actually is hockey. Until I read a rumor from a legitimate source I don't subscribe to anything. And you won't hear that rumor until there is a new cba that forces the rangers to do so.

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12-20-2012, 10:30 AM
  #140
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I'm not denying the cap won't increase. But I am skeptical of the opinions that it will decrease from 64.3 to 60. Jeremy Jacobs, one of the main hawks behind all this lockout stuff, would be screwing himself. I am not ready to get into the trading gaborik talk when nothing has happened yet. There's no hockey and we are starting, imo, blind trade conversations just like we do when there actually is hockey. Until I read a rumor from a legitimate source I don't subscribe to anything. And you won't hear that rumor until there is a new cba that forces the rangers to do so.
The Rangers were probably looking at moving Gaborik after this season anyway. I'm sure they'd love to keep him, but the money just doesn't work after you start resigning your RFA's - and that's forgetting the decreasing cap.. It's math.

Hence all the talk of this possibly being the NYR's best shot at the cup..

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12-20-2012, 10:43 AM
  #141
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The NHL is against the amnesty buyouts because its $ outside the system. Nick Kypreos and Doug MacLean were discussing this topic a few days ago. MacLean said Jeremy Jacobs cares more about the CBA than his own team. Kyper thought that was stupid. Its not that much money if you look at the possible players to be bought out. If the players want it,apply it to their share.

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12-20-2012, 11:04 AM
  #142
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If Gomez is bought out he can come back and be our third line center!

lol that would be a hoot. funny how the top two names that likely get bought out if they have that option is Gomez and Redden.......man Sather was a dummy , lucky he's a trade wizard 90% of the time.

Drury is off the books next yr too right? With only half a yr if we get half a yr that buyout really doesnt hurt them much. Teams will have plenty of space given the shortened season.

Do the Rangers go out and sign depth guys like Arnott right away instead of waiting to see what they have and making deals? IF they get a season in and playoffs I dont love the idea of Rupp, Halpern, Asham on the 4th line, during the yr sure whatever they are tough guys and good role players but in the playoffs I would want more........hoping Miller is ready by then too

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12-20-2012, 12:49 PM
  #143
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Any meetings today? Any contact today? No.

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12-20-2012, 12:53 PM
  #144
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I would be okay with Gomez coming back as a 3rd line center. I still think he has skills, he just needs players that compliment him well. I am still a fan of his.

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12-20-2012, 01:22 PM
  #145
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I would be okay with Gomez coming back as a 3rd line center. I still think he has skills, he just needs players that compliment him well. I am still a fan of his.
I'm not the only one!?!?!

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12-20-2012, 01:30 PM
  #146
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Any meetings today? Any contact today? No.
Daly is as full of b.s. as Bettman the owners and the pa are

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12-20-2012, 01:40 PM
  #147
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I'm not the only one!?!?!
Ha! Nope. I don't see why he couldn't be a Rich Peverly-like player for some team. Plus he has great playoff experience and good leadership qualities.

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12-20-2012, 02:15 PM
  #148
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No thank you. To me, he's still an offensive player. He's just not a productive one... pass.

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12-20-2012, 02:23 PM
  #149
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if we are on the topic of resigning our last mistakes i would rather have dru back than gomez, assuming both come very very cheap

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12-20-2012, 02:39 PM
  #150
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if we are on the topic of resigning our last mistakes i would rather have dru back than gomez, assuming both come very very cheap
Both ships have sailed.

I'd rather bring back Petr Nedved or drag Sergei Fedorov out of Russia than revisit those two... (not that I would advocate either move).

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