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If Gunnarson gets 3.5 million per year he will have made out like a bandit.
Gunnarson is a useful # 4/5 steady dman but some people overrate his value.
Gunnarson has a very simplified role of hang back and make the simple pass up to the forwards when Phaneuf isn't open. Aulie also looked darn good playing with Phaneuf in 10/11.
#4/5???????
Gunnarsson is easily the number 2 most important defenceman on the team and depending how much value you put into ACTUAL DEFENSIVE PLAY for defencemen then he could be a candidate for number one.
Gunnarsson is easily the number 2 most important defenceman on the team and depending how much value you put into ACTUAL DEFENSIVE PLAY for defencemen then he could be a candidate for number one.
Unreal. 4/5.....I can't believe this.
Yes, he would ideally be a #4 or 5 dman. Put him on a team with a deep D like Philly, Vancouver, Chicago, San Jose or the New York Rangers and that is exactly what he is.
Phaneuf is miles ahead of Gunnarson in terms of OVERALL IMPACT on the game. I'd also take Gardiner and his upside over Gunnarson everyday of the week.
Everybody is in love with Gunnarson right now because he is the surprise gem from last season who doesn't make very much. Wait a season or so till people get used to this level of play and when he makes more. Then all the boo birds will come out.
Isn't that like being the Prettiest Girl in an Ugly Girl contest?
Gunnar's a decent Player but certainly not untouchable and wouldn't be all that hard to replace.
No. It isn't. Being the best amongst the worst doesn't necessarily mean that he is pretty bad.
His value in undermined because his name doesn't often pop out during game, which is his asset (as he isn't known for defensive goof-ups).
Never did I use word untouchable, so no need to read between the lines. All I said was that he stays unless we get a better defensive defensman in the deal. And anyone would agree that fixing the problem of high goals scored against isn't done by trading away better defensemen.
Yes, he would ideally be a #4 or 5 dman. Put him on a team with a deep D like Philly, Vancouver, Chicago, San Jose or the New York Rangers and that is exactly what he is.
Phaneuf is miles ahead of Gunnarson in terms of OVERALL IMPACT on the game. I'd also take Gardiner and his upside over Gunnarson everyday of the week.
Everybody is in love with Gunnarson right now because he is the surprise gem from last season who doesn't make very much. Wait a season or so till people get used to this level of play and when he makes more. Then all the boo birds will come out.
Overall impact? Absolutely... Phanuef is easily the most impactful defenceman on the team, that's not necessarily a good thing.
Every team needs a guy or two that doesn't make a huge impact, but instead plays a quiet game, reliably shutting down the opposition while logging big minutes, and allowing his defensive partner the freedom to be a more noticeable defenceman.
Gardiner is the standout guy from last year who's going to get incredibly overvalued and likely disappoint. Gunnarsson's been the same reliable defenceman for the last couple of years.
Ranger??? You're talking about a guy who hasn't played in the NHL in 3 years, and has no formal affiliation with the Toronto Maple Leafs. Rielly/Gardiner?? What about their games indicates to you that they're remotely competent stay-at-home defencemen? I'd ask the same questions about Percy / Finn... handedness of a defenceman is far less relevant than how they play the game.
So what if he was on the 3rd line scoring 40 points? Being on the 3rd line in Detroit means you're playing behind Datsyuk/Zetterberg. When a team is preparing to face the Red Wings, what line do you think they're keying in on? What line is getting the top defensive assignments?
There's plenty of defencemen who can look like beasts in the AHL, there's a substantial difference between doing that and playing on a reasonably good team's top pair. Komisarek may not be capable of doing that anymore, but he's still proven as a far superior defenceman.
Mark Fraser had 98 NHL games over 5 seasons to prove that he can't stick in the NHL. There's also a reason that no team was willing to give New Jersey more than career minor-leaguer Dale Mitchell for him.
From a cap hit standpoint on our bottom pair? sure, I'd rather have one of those guys and dedicate resources to getting a better shutdown guy to play in our top 4 with Phaneuf, Gunnarsson, and one of Gardiner/Liles... but that assumes that the Leafs are given a free choice between having Komisarek at $4.5m and not. It also assumes that the Leafs have a better spot to spend the cap space.
I could quote every sentence and retort, But I've done it before and it never really goes anywhere.
Ranger: Whether he's been out 3 years or not it doesn't matter. I've watched a good portion of his 22 games, And it(the AHL) is starting to look easy for him. Also signing him to an NHL deal won't be a big hurdle, He seems like a loyal GTA boy. That's not really a concern for me anyway.
Filppula: I don't even know what to say here, You could probably count all of the people on one hand who would prefer Bozak to him. But w/e.
Your also not taking PP time into account either.
On the 6th/7th defensemen: Your not going to find out what Holzer can do until you give him a run, And even saying that I'd have him over Komo.
I could quote every sentence and retort, But I've done it before and it never really goes anywhere.
Ranger: Whether he's been out 3 years or not it doesn't matter. I've watched a good portion of his 22 games, And it(the AHL) is starting to look easy for him. Also signing him to an NHL deal won't be a big hurdle, He seems like a loyal GTA boy. That's not really a concern for me anyway.
Filppula: I don't even know what to say here, You could probably count all of the people on one hand who would prefer Bozak to him. But w/e.
Your also not taking PP time into account either.
On the 6th/7th defensemen: Your not going to find out what Holzer can do until you give him a run, And even saying that I'd have him over Komo.
As repeatedly mentioned, being good in the AHL does not automatically make you capable of doing so in the NHL... I am however curious as to who between Ranger and Brian Burke told you that signing a NHL contract "won't be a big deal".
As for Bozak/Filppula, I'll take Bozak's proven chemistry with Kessel, $1.5m contract, and RFA control over Filppula any day of the week.
On the 6th / 7th defenceman, you're not going to stop the perpetual rebuild and make the playoffs if you don't play your best players. Komisarek is proven as the better defenceman than Holzer. Maybe Holzer works his way up and earns more ice time than Komisarek, but at this point, he hasn't, and there's little reason to assume that he will next year.
hfboards: Where Carl Gunnarsson is the only reason Dion Phaneuf had an amazing season according to defensive metrics, but he's still only a #4/#5 defensemen.
As repeatedly mentioned, being good in the AHL does not automatically make you capable of doing so in the NHL... I am however curious as to who between Ranger and Brian Burke told you that signing a NHL contract "won't be a big deal".
Well it wouldn't be Burke would it. It would be Claude Loiselle who does all the contracts for the Leafs.
And yea, I feel pretty confident in saying the next time you Ranger in the NHL he'll be a Leaf.
hfboards: Where Carl Gunnarsson is the only reason Dion Phaneuf had an amazing season according to defensive metrics, but he's still only a #4/#5 defensemen.
It's mind blowing...tell me about it. Guy is a positional rock and plays the body and puck when appropriate. That's a defensive defenceman. If it wasn't for the terrible Leafs goalies this guy would be as good as a number of allround defencemen around the league (Vlasic, Martin, Bouwmeester). Problem is he plays on the Leafs and cant focus on puck movement and offence cuz hes too worried about covering up for Dion and Reimer.
It's mind blowing...tell me about it. Guy is a positional rock and plays the body and puck when appropriate. That's a defensive defenceman. If it wasn't for the terrible Leafs goalies this guy would be as good as a number of allround defencemen around the league (Vlasic, Martin, Bouwmeester). Problem is he plays on the Leafs and cant focus on puck movement and offence cuz hes too worried about covering up for Dion and Reimer.
It's mind blowing how much your overrating him.
Gunnarson is a valuable asset but he is definitely not an ideal # 2 dman. Phaneuf is expected to be the main go to guy on the powerplay, penalty kill, even strength every single night. Gunnarson does a job of complimenting him but he also has a very simplified role as his partner just like Aulie did who everybody raved about once Phaneuf got his game back.
Salaries aside Vlasic, Martin or Bouwmeester should be taken over Gunnarson every single time.
Gunnarson is a valuable asset but he is definitely not an ideal # 2 dman. Phaneuf is expected to be the main go to guy on the powerplay, penalty kill, even strength every single night. Gunnarson does a job of complimenting him but he also has a very simplified role as his partner just like Aulie did who everybody raved about once Phaneuf got his game back.
Salaries aside Vlasic, Martin or Bouwmeester should be taken over Gunnarson every single time.
Do you think removing a team's best penalty killer and best defensive even strength player is a good way to improve a team who was almost DEAD LAST in penalty kill efficiency and even strength goals against?
GUESS AGAIN!!!!!!
NO ONE is saying that Gunnarsson is a #2 on a contending team or whatever it is you think you are saying. BUT Gunnarsson remains the best defensive defenceman on the Leafs and trying to improve the team does NOT involve removing him from the equation unless there is another equally or better defensive defenceman coming back or one waiting in the wings!
Do you think removing a team's best penalty killer and best defensive even strength player is a good way to improve a team who was almost DEAD LAST in penalty kill efficiency and even strength goals against?
GUESS AGAIN!!!!!!
NO ONE is saying that Gunnarsson is a #2 on a contending team or whatever it is you think you are saying. BUT Gunnarsson remains the best defensive defenceman on the Leafs and trying to improve the team does NOT involve removing him from the equation unless there is another equally or better defensive defenceman coming back or one waiting in the wings!
You went on a rant about how great Gunnarson was and compared him to some #2/3dmen. My post was simply a more realistic view of what Gunnarson is which is ideally a #4 or on a very good team a #5.
Of course I'm not saying just trade him for the sake of trading him. However, if Gunnarson returns a goaltending upgrade, D upgrade or a center upgrade then adios just like Ian White before him who fans loved so much.
You went on a rant about how great Gunnarson was and compared him to some #2/3dmen. My post was simply a more realistic view of what Gunnarson is which is ideally a #4 or on a very good team a #5.
Of course I'm not saying just trade him for the sake of trading him. However, if Gunnarson returns a goaltending upgrade, D upgrade or a center upgrade then adios just like Ian White before him who fans loved so much.
Obviously we would upgrade him for a legimitate goalie, center, or better defenceman than him but who would, even in a package situation?
Carl is more valued to the Leafs than anyone else at this point.
No one is saying he is a "legit #2". Then again no one is saying Phaneuf is a legit #1. Maybe it is all relative to where the Leafs are in the standings (last).
We need Carl to improve and maybe its all these "offensive" defenceman" that the Leafs should be trying to move away.
Obviously we would upgrade him for a legimitate goalie, center, or better defenceman than him but who would, even in a package situation?
Carl is more valued to the Leafs than anyone else at this point.
No one is saying he is a "legit #2". Then again no one is saying Phaneuf is a legit #1. Maybe it is all relative to where the Leafs are in the standings (last).
We need Carl to improve and maybe its all these "offensive" defenceman" that the Leafs should be trying to move away.
Exactly why I think Burke will be looking to ship out Franson whenever the NHL starts up again.
Exactly why I think Burke will be looking to ship out Franson whenever the NHL starts up again.
I don't think Franson wants back any more than we want him back. We'll take that as a given. What I'd like to know is what you feel about John Michael Liles being signed longterm knowing we have Gardiner and Phaneuf here longterm? Where are our defensive defencemen? Seems sort of VACANT doesn't it? Gunnarsson (who you want traded), and who..........?
Well it wouldn't be Burke would it. It would be Claude Loiselle who does all the contracts for the Leafs.
And yea, I feel pretty confident in saying the next time you Ranger in the NHL he'll be a Leaf.
What gives you that confidence? Did Loiselle tell you this over beers? Or is it simply based on the fact that he's from Toronto? If that's your reasoning, wouldn't it be more likely that we're able to get more players from Toronto that address our needs?
Furthermore, what gives you any indication that he's a competent NHL shutdown defender? Even 3 years ago, it's not like he played a shutdown role.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bomber0104
I don't think Franson wants back any more than we want him back. We'll take that as a given. What I'd like to know is what you feel about John Michael Liles being signed longterm knowing we have Gardiner and Phaneuf here longterm? Where are our defensive defencemen? Seems sort of VACANT doesn't it? Gunnarsson (who you want traded), and who..........?
QFT.
We've got a substantial hole in our defence in the context of a top 4 shutdown defenceman. Ideally, Phaneuf/Gardiner/Liles all play on different pairings, and all play with guys who are reliable in their own end at even strength. For the PP they likley combine, and PK, Liles/Gardiner probably sit. Gunnarsson can do it with Phaneuf, but would probably be better suited to a #2 pair. Komisarek can do it on the 3rd pair, and Holzer might be able to in that role as well. Franson can't, he's not that kind of player. As Rielly comes in, he likely forces Liles out as long as Gardiner continues to develop.
The last thing the Leafs can afford to do is trade from a position of weakness, to address a position of strength. If anything, the Leafs should be shopping for a defenceman, as a top 4 shutdown guy is going to be a lot easier to get than a #1C or #1G, and unlike lowering the quality of a #1C or a #2/3 to match the ease of acquisition (like a Filppula), a top 4 shutdown guy will actually substantially help this team.
Last edited by seanlinden: 12-19-2012 at 06:38 AM.
No. It isn't. Being the best amongst the worst doesn't necessarily mean that he is pretty bad.
His value in undermined because his name doesn't often pop out during game, which is his asset (as he isn't known for defensive goof-ups).
Never did I use word untouchable, so no need to read between the lines. All I said was that he stays unless we get a better defensive defensman in the deal. And anyone would agree that fixing the problem of high goals scored against isn't done by trading away better defensemen.
I never said he was "pretty bad", in fact no one has. He's decent on a 2nd pair.
I agree he will be at some point replaced by a better defensive defenseman.
The proposal offered was for a type of player the Leafs also need. Toughness is definately something this Team is missing.
I assume if he was moved for Clutterbuck(which Burke would be all over but I can't see the Wilds interest.) a subsequent deal would also be made to fill his hole.
Yes, he would ideally be a #4 or 5 dman. Put him on a team with a deep D like Philly, Vancouver, Chicago, San Jose or the New York Rangers and that is exactly what he is.
Phaneuf is miles ahead of Gunnarson in terms of OVERALL IMPACT on the game. I'd also take Gardiner and his upside over Gunnarson everyday of the week.
Everybody is in love with Gunnarson right now because he is the surprise gem from last season who doesn't make very much. Wait a season or so till people get used to this level of play and when he makes more. Then all the boo birds will come out.
Gunnarsson has been at this level for 2 of his 3 seasons. He is easily a #4 D on a very good team, I'd agree he may not be a #3 on a contender but if he's your #5 the teams depth is insane. He'd battle for #3 with hjarmalssom on Chicago, would be #3 on a prongerless Philly, would be #4/5 battling del zotto in New York, would be #4 in SJS, and easily #4 in Vancouver considering that is their only roster hole. Only one of those situations is he maybe bottom pairing, but its highly unlikely you'll find many teams where he'd be one.
Gunnarsson should not be traded and in fact should be one of the defenseman Toronto builds around. Assuming the Leaf D prospects pan out, having a guy like Gunnarsson on a 2nd or 3rd pairing just shows how much depth the team has.
Gunnarsson has been improving literally every season he's played, he's never had a down year. He is still showing that he has plenty of upside, he's still young and he's by far our best defensive player. He also has plenty of intangibles (that word...) that most people wouldn't notice unless they watched many, many Leaf games.
Gunnarsson's value to the Leafs is about Braydon Coburn's value to the Flyers.
So as you can see our only holes are a #1C/1G or 2 or 4 D each of which would not be expendable without creating a hole for St. Louis. In other words, we don't make good trading partners.
Gunnarsson has been at this level for 2 of his 3 seasons. He is easily a #4 D on a very good team, I'd agree he may not be a #3 on a contender but if he's your #5 the teams depth is insane. He'd battle for #3 with hjarmalssom on Chicago, would be #3 on a prongerless Philly, would be #4/5 battling del zotto in New York, would be #4 in SJS, and easily #4 in Vancouver considering that is their only roster hole. Only one of those situations is he maybe bottom pairing, but its highly unlikely you'll find many teams where he'd be one.
Gunnarson saw his game improve last season.
In Chicago he'd be in a battle with Leddy, Hjalmarsson and Oduya and could be anywhere there 3rd to 6th dman at anytime.
In Philly he'd be behind Timmonen, Coburn and Meszaros so # 4 at best.
In Vancouver he'd be behind Bieksa, Edler, Hamhuis and Garrison.
You're talking about a guy who hasn't played in the NHL in 3 years, and has no formal affiliation with the Toronto Maple Leafs. Rielly/Gardiner?? What about their games indicates to you that they're remotely competent stay-at-home defencemen? I'd ask the same questions about Percy / Finn... handedness of a defenceman is far less relevant than how they play the game. 
