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Survey: NHL Lockout doing alarming damage to brand

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Old
12-18-2012, 03:25 PM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
Horse racing declined due to an increased focus on things like breeding practices and animal rights as well as the rise of other sports. Boxing declined due to almost unbelievable amounts of corruption, and the focus on the later-life health of boxers.
Boxing's decline also had a lot to do with Pay Per View and moving all the major events to Vegas.

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Old
12-18-2012, 04:14 PM
  #27
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Monopolies that abuse their position leave themselves open to a new entrant(s). After the last 20 years of labor strife, and the ridiculousness of this one (if so many teams are losing money, maybe some of them should fold like any other kind of business? clearly the players are being asked to pay for the Phoenix fiasco, among other things), I would not at all be surprised that the majority of fans would give another league a real chance. Ditto for the players.

That's where the Biggest brand trust is lost.

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Old
12-18-2012, 04:27 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pilky01 View Post
Yet five year contract limits are the hill the league will die on.

Is it any wonder the league is in as bad shape as it is.
Bill Daly and the NHL are simply idiots to use such language about their product.

No amount of negotiating tough talk is worth uttering such language in front of the world, fans and sponsors.

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Old
12-18-2012, 04:30 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by du5566 View Post
The reality is the NHL still has not fully recovered from the last lockout. This one may kill the sport as we know it.
In Detroit it didn't.

Some of it that we lost Yzerman and Shanahan. Some of it is just apathy (team does good every regular season).

But the amount of hockey talk in Detroit, prelockout to postlockout --- has declined a ton.

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12-18-2012, 04:50 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
It's not the first time that people tell me that my posting causes them pain.

It's a lot like looking at the comparison between European society 500 years ago and the Middle East today. Fundamentally they're similar, but the danger is that, due to advanced technology, it's possible for a group of terrorists using religion as a weapon to carry that battle around the world in 24 hours.



Horse racing declined due to an increased focus on things like breeding practices and animal rights as well as the rise of other sports. Boxing declined due to almost unbelievable amounts of corruption, and the focus on the later-life health of boxers.
Exactly. The NHL going through this process now is terrible and has lead to a ton of infighting. Of course it's over the future, and if everyone's vision is not accommodated the entire thing goes out the window.
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Originally Posted by IU Hawks fan View Post
Boxing's decline also had a lot to do with Pay Per View and moving all the major events to Vegas.
Very true. That should make you even more scared because hockey has similar and more severe injury problems
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
In Detroit it didn't.

Some of it that we lost Yzerman and Shanahan. Some of it is just apathy (team does good every regular season).

But the amount of hockey talk in Detroit, prelockout to postlockout --- has declined a ton.
I thought Detroit was hockey town?

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Old
12-18-2012, 04:50 PM
  #31
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The NHL is naive to the times. They think that because the last lockout went the way it did that this one should show history repeat itself. Well that won't be the case. For many reasons but for one, social networking and all the social media demographics will play a large roll the likes of which others have already seen. People are able to find solace in groups of people who have taken the picket up and decided to boycott NHL products in full.

This has been evident not just with the obvious group combiners such as Facebook and Twitter, but on local blogs and things where over 700 people have said (on a local Avalanche blog) that they will all be following the boycott. No NHL games, no memorabilia or paraphernalia of any kind. 700 may not seem like a lot but its almost 50% of this local blogs base user number, thats substantial and only a small sign of the things I see on the national scale.

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Old
12-18-2012, 05:45 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AMDZen View Post
The NHL is naive to the times. They think that because the last lockout went the way it did that this one should show history repeat itself. Well that won't be the case. For many reasons but for one, social networking and all the social media demographics will play a large roll the likes of which others have already seen. People are able to find solace in groups of people who have taken the picket up and decided to boycott NHL products in full.

This has been evident not just with the obvious group combiners such as Facebook and Twitter, but on local blogs and things where over 700 people have said (on a local Avalanche blog) that they will all be following the boycott. No NHL games, no memorabilia or paraphernalia of any kind. 700 may not seem like a lot but its almost 50% of this local blogs base user number, thats substantial and only a small sign of the things I see on the national scale.
Riiiiggght. The day this lockout gets settled, everyone of those fans will be looking forward to the first game, buying jerseys again, and looking forward to paying $8 for a beer again. The idea that fans are really going to stay away for any meaningful period of time is laughable. Hockey fans are die hards. They love the game. They will be back in droves.

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Old
12-18-2012, 05:47 PM
  #33
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Being a fan mostly involves getting tied up in the emotion surrounding the team you're a fan of. Hope, despair, victory, championships you hitch yourself to the team/franchise and away you go.

As a result it's impossible not involve some kind of emotion into the equation when you're asked if you'll go back to being a fan, or less of a fan or more of a fan when the lockout ends. As a fan I want the league to suffer because I've suffered and there's a sense of justice there. But what I want to happen and what will happen aren't guaranteed to be the same thing. I think there is a bias introduced when people are asked this question.

My seemingly contrarian view is that the brand won't be damaged. Not long term. Sports by nature is somewhat cyclical. Most sports have up times and downtimes as defined by seasons, off-seasons, championship games etc. There are ebs and flows. Sure lockouts are extended lows, no question about that. But some of the most popular sporting events like world cup and the olympics are on 4 year cycles.

I'm sure the league has a whole bunch of stuff up their sleeve as well to entice fans back, it would be pretty stupid if they didn't. At the end we all just want our games back. Maybe we won't be tripping over each other to file into pre-season games but I think the brand will bounce back in due time.

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12-18-2012, 05:50 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AMDZen View Post
The NHL is naive to the times. They think that because the last lockout went the way it did that this one should show history repeat itself. Well that won't be the case. For many reasons but for one, social networking and all the social media demographics will play a large roll the likes of which others have already seen. People are able to find solace in groups of people who have taken the picket up and decided to boycott NHL products in full.

This has been evident not just with the obvious group combiners such as Facebook and Twitter, but on local blogs and things where over 700 people have said (on a local Avalanche blog) that they will all be following the boycott. No NHL games, no memorabilia or paraphernalia of any kind. 700 may not seem like a lot but its almost 50% of this local blogs base user number, thats substantial and only a small sign of the things I see on the national scale.



Sad. This is DENVER folks! Not some other place
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stickmata View Post
Riiiiggght. The day this lockout gets settled, everyone of those fans will be looking forward to the first game, buying jerseys again, and looking forward to paying $8 for a beer again. The idea that fans are really going to stay away for any meaningful period of time is laughable. Hockey fans are die hards. They love the game. They will be back in droves.
They're going to the courts soon. It's not happening. Keep living in denial.

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12-18-2012, 05:52 PM
  #35
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People thinking the NHL won't die are nuts. And we are all guilty, including the fans for making everyone arrogant enough to do this out of loyalty.

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Old
12-18-2012, 05:54 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Melrose Munch View Post
People thinking the NHL won't die are nuts. And we are all guilty, including the fans for making everyone arrogant enough to do this out of loyalty.
Everything dies eventually the only question is when.

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Old
12-18-2012, 05:55 PM
  #37
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Hockey, being the 4th most popular league in the US (and 4th by a long shot -it's not like they're close to 3rd) to me means they have a bit of a cult following. People like hockey because it's hockey. I don't think they're going to start liking basketball more (or keep liking whatever alternative more) once the lockout ends. I just don't see it.

The brand will be damaged, anything that gets dragged through the mud because of bad press and upset customers gets damaged. But unless there is an alternative for the cult of people who love hockey, either another hockey league or something to split the vote so to speak, I just don't see the brand never recovering.

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Old
12-18-2012, 05:59 PM
  #38
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Not denying

Hey guys,

I'm not denying that the past few months has hurt the NHL 'Brand'. My comment was about taking sponsorship agreements tha allow the sponser to get 5 x the fee they were paying if there were labor problems as a poster suggested could happen.

I am NOT trying to deny John Collins or any member of the NHL staff any and all credit for their efforts.

Consider that 20 yrs ago the NHL was a very different business and under Bettmans leadership, despite the labor stife etc. The value of NHL franchises has skyrocketed . He led a significant brand value increase.

My point was that he wouldn't agree to sponsorships that the OP had suggested.

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Old
12-18-2012, 06:09 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Falconone View Post
Hey guys,

I'm not denying that the past few months has hurt the NHL 'Brand'. My comment was about taking sponsorship agreements tha allow the sponser to get 5 x the fee they were paying if there were labor problems as a poster suggested could happen.

I am NOT trying to deny John Collins or any member of the NHL staff any and all credit for their efforts.

Consider that 20 yrs ago the NHL was a very different business and under Bettmans leadership, despite the labor stife etc. The value of NHL franchises has skyrocketed . He led a significant brand value increase.

My point was that he wouldn't agree to sponsorships that the OP had suggested.
I believe the value of all sport teams in all leagues have skyrocketed over the last twenty years. Take Orlando in the NBA 22 years ago 32 million today 385 million.

NHL was 4th 20 years ago and they're still 4th. Bettman has done nothing outstanding.

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Old
12-18-2012, 06:10 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pilky01 View Post
Yet five year contract limits are the hill the league will die on.

Is it any wonder the league is in as bad shape as it is.
Nope, 10 years later we still have no NHL Network HD in Canada. I could give you example after example that they have no idea what they are doing.

But Bettman has been GREAT if you believe what many people here preach.

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Old
12-18-2012, 06:21 PM
  #41
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I hope both the owners and players suffer a lot because of this lockout.

The Canadian fans will come back, because they can't live without hockey, but I hope American fans really screw both sides right back.

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Old
12-18-2012, 06:29 PM
  #42
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Sports Illustrated Hockey Covers (Source: Gatehouse)

1970-79: 17
1980-89: 16
1990-99: 11
2000-09: 8 (first NHL player on cover after start of 2004 lockout is 2009)

2 observations:
1- Hockey is less mainstream than it once was.
2- Lockouts hurt the brand.

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Old
12-18-2012, 06:36 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erik Estrada View Post
Sports Illustrated Hockey Covers (Source: Gatehouse)

1970-79: 17
1980-89: 16
1990-99: 11
2000-09: 8 (first NHL player on cover after start of 2004 lockout is 2009)

2 observations:
1- Hockey is less mainstream than it once was.
2- Lockouts hurt the brand.
That plus everything including minor sports gets more coverage in the days of the 24-7 news cycle with more sports vying for entertainment attention. Women's basketball wasn't covered 'at all' until the mid-90's. Golf became bigger when Tiger got into the sport.

But yeah those are telling numbers. Especially considering SI compared the NHL to the NBA favorably during the '94 postseason (hot and not).

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12-18-2012, 06:44 PM
  #44
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That plus everything including minor sports gets more coverage in the days of the 24-7 news cycle with more sports vying for entertainment attention. Women's basketball wasn't covered 'at all' until the mid-90's. Golf became bigger when Tiger got into the sport.

But yeah those are telling numbers. Especially considering SI compared the NHL to the NBA favorably during the '94 postseason (hot and not).
I agree that there's lots of factors that can explain the downward trend. But since the 94 postseason, the frequent and long work stoppages haven't been helping. Here's a quote from Babcock...

Mark Spector Sports ‏@SportsnetSpec
Mike Babcock on lockout effect: "Hate to say it, but we could end up like bowling."

https://twitter.com/SportsnetSpec/st...54622339547138

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Old
12-18-2012, 07:02 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stickmata View Post
While I agree the sponsorship dollars will be impacted, this idea that a huge contingent of fans are going to abandon the game is really a joke, and doing a survey of attitudes at the height of the lockout is going to lead to emotional responses and misleading results.

Personally, I'm just so sick of all the fan whining and complaining. As soon as this lockout ends, next week or next year, we'll all be back buying tickets, jerseys and $8 beers. You know we will. Because we love the game. All the "I'm never going to another game" BS, is just that, BS. We all know we'll be back and the league knows it too. We're a small fan base, but we're insanely committed to the game.
Losing fans is not the issue. Hockey fans are incredibly loyal, especially those north of the border. Die hard fans will come back no matter how much abuse they take from this lockout.

The issue here, and what the article and others like it are trying to say, is not the loss of current fans, but the failure to gain new ones. Locking out every 10 years or so has painted the NHL brand as something of a silly, inconsequential niche league, similar to MLS or the WNBA. The NHL will never be mentioned in the same sentence as the NFL, NBA, or MLB as long as it continues to go through these bitter, theatrical lockouts every few years. The NHL has shot itself in the foot, both ownership and players alike, for three decades now in trying to attract new fans.

As long as "winning" a CBA negotiation is more important to both sides than simply playing the game and attracting fans simply due to consistency of the league, the NHL will continue to fail.

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12-18-2012, 07:21 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stix and Stones View Post
Everything dies eventually the only question is when.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stix and Stones View Post
I believe the value of all sport teams in all leagues have skyrocketed over the last twenty years. Take Orlando in the NBA 22 years ago 32 million today 385 million.

NHL was 4th 20 years ago and they're still 4th. Bettman has done nothing outstanding.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundwave View Post
I hope both the owners and players suffer a lot because of this lockout.

The Canadian fans will come back, because they can't live without hockey, but I hope American fans really screw both sides right back.
This is the problem. Soundwave only 10 million people in this country like Sports to begin with. Hockey gets around 7 million(maybe less today) High ratings for HNIC are like 2.5 million, that's like 7 percent of the country if that. Demographics are changing in Canada. Even the Canadians fans won't come back this time. The NHL has really committed that. You and me will be okay, but those that like hockey only will be in for a rude awakening.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richie10 View Post
Losing fans is not the issue. Hockey fans are incredibly loyal, especially those north of the border. Die hard fans will come back no matter how much abuse they take from this lockout.

The issue here, and what the article and others like it are trying to say, is not the loss of current fans, but the failure to gain new ones. Locking out every 10 years or so has painted the NHL brand as something of a silly, inconsequential niche league, similar to MLS or the WNBA. The NHL will never be mentioned in the same sentence as the NFL, NBA, or MLB as long as it continues to go through these bitter, theatrical lockouts every few years. The NHL has shot itself in the foot, both ownership and players alike, for three decades now in trying to attract new fans.

As long as "winning" a CBA negotiation is more important to both sides than simply playing the game and attracting fans simply due to consistency of the league, the NHL will continue to fail.
It will go further then this. The NHL is at risk of being beaten by MMA and the MLS within 15 years based on US population. You can already say NASCAR is bigger.

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Old
12-18-2012, 07:22 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by syc View Post
Nope, 10 years later we still have no NHL Network HD in Canada. I could give you example after example that they have no idea what they are doing.

But Bettman has been GREAT if you believe what many people here preach.
lol seriously?

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12-18-2012, 07:24 PM
  #48
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This lockout has shown one thing there is no big 4 that's for freaking sure.

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Old
12-18-2012, 07:25 PM
  #49
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This lockout has just killed my passion for the sport, it's completely gone. I honestly don't care if the NHL ever comes back Im not going to games or buying their stuff. I might watch on tv but they have lost my trust for the next decade and I don't think the players or owners deserve my support, I was insulted with ''thank you fans'' on the ice last time and won't even know how to respond when they do that crap again whenever they start up.

What I don't get is the people that come into every thread like this and say ''bad reporting'' or ''the nhl is fine and better than ever'' I mean how clueless. This league is a total joke, it insults it's fans, it is killing itself and yet people will still defend its terrible actions and sub par on ice product.

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12-18-2012, 07:29 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NugentHopkinsfan View Post
This lockout has just killed my passion for the sport, it's completely gone. I honestly don't care if the NHL ever comes back Im not going to games or buying their stuff. I might watch on tv but they have lost my trust for the next decade and I don't think the players or owners deserve my support, I was insulted with ''thank you fans'' on the ice last time and won't even know how to respond when they do that crap again whenever they start up.

What I don't get is the people that come into every thread like this and say ''bad reporting'' or ''the nhl is fine and better than ever'' I mean how clueless. This league is a total joke, it insults it's fans, it is killing itself and yet people will still defend its terrible actions and sub par on ice product.
Because its the only sport some follow.

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