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Phoenix LXVII; Route66 - Aftermath

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01-05-2013, 11:14 AM
  #426
Confucius
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Yeah, well there are the contractual obligations but they also have a reputation to consider. [Mod] Effing over Glendale will not help their cause in partnering with municipalities in other markets.

I also prefer that people don't screw me over because they have morals rather than because there's some prohibition against it or because they'll get in trouble.
Those days are long gone. The only thing protecting the average person from being taken advantage of is the law.


Last edited by Killion: 01-05-2013 at 12:14 PM.
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01-05-2013, 11:15 AM
  #427
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Perhaps the Visionaries should have included some performance standards in their consecutive $25MM contracts. I mean, the agreements did go through the City Manager's Office, City Attorney's Office, and then before the Council. Not one person in that chain of command could muster the skill to to insert even the most basic performance language?

I have a hard time reprimanding the NHL for their conduct; they merely fulfilled their contractual obligations, albeit nothing more. To me, this is 100% a failure of fiduciary duty by Glendale staff.



The area suffers because the city has failed to competently govern the arena facility. It seems a bit ill considered to attribute it exclusively to the lack of Coyotes games. I appreciate the anecdotes but there is years of actual financial data that shows how little commerce the team generates. The problem, as mentioned above, is that there is no management or programming at the arena (despite that smooth $50MM layout).
The NHL couldn't care less whether there is any activity at the Jobing.com. They demanded $50 million simply to offset some of the operating costs of the Coyotes for two seasons.

As for the Westgate businesses, there were a couple of lease MOUs approved by the City of Glendale that would have required $25 million in subsidies annually from Westgate businesses via a CFD. It would be interesting to know from an actual Westgate business owner how much they would have been willing to kick in to subsidize the Coyotes annually.

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01-05-2013, 11:24 AM
  #428
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Originally Posted by Thomas L View Post
Yeah, well there are the contractual obligations but they also have a reputation to consider. [Mod] Effing over Glendale will not help their cause in partnering with municipalities in other markets.

I also prefer that people don't screw me over because they have morals rather than because there's some prohibition against it or because they'll get in trouble.
and bettman knows this, which is why I still believe that there is a lot more going on at HQ right now than just negotiating the cba. i think they have accepted that the future of this team is not going to be in glendale and they are navigating the various waters to create an exit strategy, which includes: a) identifying a scapegoat in the desert [which ironically, glendale is doing a very good job of not being the one 'at fault'] ... presumably the nhl will blame goldwater, b) devising an optically sellable 'exit' package for glendale (perhaps forfeiting that $5M not put into escrow last year?) that will not discourage future municipalities, and c) spinning a relocation (preferably seattle, but QC would fly) as being a positive development for the future of the sport.


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01-05-2013, 12:05 PM
  #429
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Originally Posted by Thomas L View Post
Yeah, well there are the contractual obligations but they also have a reputation to consider. [Mod] Effing over Glendale will not help their cause in partnering with municipalities in other markets.... I also prefer that people don't screw me over because they have morals rather than because there's some prohibition against it or because they'll get in trouble.
Indeed. Unfortunately the NHL along with every other top tier, minor & junior league pretty much count on the axiom of out of sight out of mind; short memories. Politico's of every stripe rarely disappointing them in that regard, "wont happen here, no way no how". Hubris combined with moral bankruptcy, pay it forward in to perpetuity, no acceptance of responsibility as time distances them all from the initial "event", everyone else but themselves to blame & Demonize, nothing but ingratitude & disdain shown towards the electorate, the people who put them into office in the first place to protect their interests. Daniel (007) Craig has it right Im afraid, polticians are **** heads. So is most of humankind Im afraid but thats another story.

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01-05-2013, 12:25 PM
  #430
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Originally Posted by Thomas L View Post
Yeah, well there are the contractual obligations but they also have a reputation to consider. [Mod] Effing over Glendale will not help their cause in partnering with municipalities in other markets.

I also prefer that people don't screw me over because they have morals rather than because there's some prohibition against it or because they'll get in trouble.
I strongly prefer ethical conduct too but, in practice, moral turpitude is just as common. Without transitioning into a sad commentary on society as a whole, I think its fair to say that a municipal goverment has a duty to protect the interests and assets of the public body that they represent. In doing so they probably should, unfortunately, assume that everyone is out to screw them and respond accordingly by elevating diligence to the highest level.

Also, I don't think that the NHL is concerned at all about their reputation, nor do I think that their reputation is at stake in any meaningful way. While the situation in Glendale probably will not help their cause in other cities, it certainly won't hurt their cause either. These deals are independent from each other and the mechanisms, politicians, and negotiating positions involved are all vastly different. I have a very hard time believing that one municipality will learn from another municipality's mistake - not just in arena contracts but across all facets of government. I just don't see how anything that the NHL does in Glendale, no matter how egregious, is ever going to have any impact on what happens in Edmonton or Nashville or Columbus

Lastly, at this point there is no excuse for any government body to be unaware that the NHL, NFL, MLB, NBA are only interested in striking the best deal possible for themselves regardless of how immoral or how badly the deal might cripple normal government operations. For lack of a better term, the leagues are extortionists. They prey on the stupid. And there is an over abundence of stupid in Glendale.


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01-05-2013, 12:47 PM
  #431
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business ethics on paper are duty to the stockholders to make money, dont screw up the environment, and dont break the law. unfortunately as haliburton, enron, BP and a litany of others have shown, the only thing that matters is more ben franklins in thier pockets, morals, ethics , the law and the environment, be darned. we see it with the very rich, the kochs, adelsons, trumps waltons hiltons, i got mine the rest of you can go hang. i dont begrudge a company making a profit, but when that profit reaches into the billions a line has to be drawn.no business making billions in profits should receive any subsidy of any sort, they clearly are doing well enough to pay any level of tax , or pay for any venture themselves. as for individuals, to have a single person be worth 20, 30, 50 billion, is beyond obscene.not even the kings of old france or england, or the popes at avignon, could dream of such wealth. the robber barions, for all thier faults, most of them donated money for the arts, to colleges, to preserve land as national parks or monuments. gates and buffet are fighting malaria and aids and other diseases, for that i salute them. they are following the noblese obligee that was usually associated with garguataun wealth. but the kochs waltons, adelsons, they are using their fortunes for selfish and corrupting purposes.

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01-05-2013, 12:56 PM
  #432
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morals, ethics , the law and the environment, be darned. we see it with the very rich
Yeah, the poor are selfless pillars of virtue who honor the law and create environmental friendly habitats wherever they reside.

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as for individuals, to have a single person be worth 20, 30, 50 billion, is beyond obscene.
You say tomato...

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01-05-2013, 01:01 PM
  #433
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Those days are long gone. The only thing protecting the average person from being taken advantage of is the law.
Im afraid your absolutely correct in that observation S&S. The Law itself as weve' seen can be and is often used as a weapon which in the hands of any sharp practising attorney easily turned on the very people they were designed to protect in the first place. Fortunately Bar Associations maintain strict & high standards, weeding out the bad apples however, as weve' seen in many many cases, it can take years, decades (Alan Eagleson for eg) to put a stop to whomever wherever, if ever. Over the past decade and a half in the States, we've seen a real increase in the prosecution of white collar crimes, many actually feeling its gone way overboard bordering on zealotry, Attorneys looking to make names for themselves in taking down whomever in some cases based on thin evidence, an overly heavily handed application of the law. Conrad Blacks case for example, like him or revile him, some serious questions raised.... but back on topic.

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Also, I don't think that the NHL is concerned at all about their reputation, nor do I think that their reputation is at stake in any meaningful way.
They can justify (if even asked) every step theyve taken from a both legal & moral perspective. From Moyes' intransigence & duplicity, fighting off Balsillies hostile relocation attempts, "forced" into purchasing the franchise themselves; 3rd party intervention in the Goldwater Institute killing any and all attempts to sell the team locally, justifying the $25M X's 2 in AMF's and so on & so forth. An easy sell actually when premised & viewed through a glass darkly as is the NHL's wont & natural prerogative on most matters.

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01-05-2013, 01:43 PM
  #434
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and bettman knows this, which is why I still believe that there is a lot more going on at HQ right now than just negotiating the cba. i think they have accepted that the future of this team is not going to be in glendale and they are navigating the various waters to create an exit strategy, which includes: a) identifying a scapegoat in the desert [which ironically, glendale is doing a very good job of not being the one 'at fault'] ... presumably the nhl will blame goldwater, b) devising an optically sellable 'exit' package for glendale (perhaps forfeiting that $5M not put into escrow last year?) that will not discourage future municipalities, and c) spinning a relocation (preferably seattle, but QC would fly) as being a positive development for the future of the sport.
Bettman and his trusty bumbling sidekick Daly probably realized sometime last summer that the current season would be lost and nothing would have to be done with the Coyotes until June 2013. The trouble begins if the season does indeed start in January and they have to stick pretend buyer and straw man Gramps Jamison in front of a microphone, pretty hard for the NHL to pretend now once the imaginary January 31st deadline is passed and Gramps is still feigning a play for the team. More than likely a DOZEN two more weeks should suffice to close out the run in the desert.

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01-05-2013, 02:02 PM
  #435
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Just wondering, why didn't the downtown arena work when a team like the Islanders can accept a basketball arena?

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01-05-2013, 02:40 PM
  #436
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they are following the noblese obligee that was usually associated with garguataun wealth. but the kochs waltons, adelsons, they are using their fortunes for selfish and corrupting purposes.
Actually, a good portion of the excess fortunes of the uber wealthy class is usually most often donated toward charitable causes as it is tax advantageous to do so. It goes toward the greater good as such.

Mod...


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01-05-2013, 03:33 PM
  #437
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Just wondering, why didn't the downtown arena work when a team like the Islanders can accept a basketball arena?
Bottom line; The Lease. The Coyotes had a dreadful one with Colangelo at the AWA. No revenues from parking, concessions, limited sponsorship & advertising streams etc. Configuration for hockey at the downtown Phoenix facility as well was beyond wonky. Ideally, Ive always felt they shouldve moved into the old Veterans Memorial Arena on the Az State Fairgrounds. Thats where the Roadrunners of the WHA & IHL played out of. As for the Islanders, they have a serious local broadcasting contract worth tens of millions every year for something like the next 20, so that combined with a favourable lease, should work in Brooklyn; though I dont see Wang hanging onto the team for any length of time. Shouldnt have any problem finding a local buyer....

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01-05-2013, 04:24 PM
  #438
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Bettman and his trusty bumbling sidekick Daly probably realized sometime last summer that the current season would be lost and nothing would have to be done with the Coyotes until June 2013. The trouble begins if the season does indeed start in January and they have to stick pretend buyer and straw man Gramps Jamison in front of a microphone, pretty hard for the NHL to pretend now once the imaginary January 31st deadline is passed and Gramps is still feigning a play for the team. More than likely a DOZEN two more weeks should suffice to close out the run in the desert.
it is funny how the best-before dates for the entire season and the existence of the coyotes both come within a single ... dare i say ... two week period.

i am still intrigued by the dymanics around the bog table, tho. you imply that the commish is driving the bus. i can easily imagine that some governors are more, and some less, happy with the prospect of an entire scrapped season. challenging markets might rejoice in the league initiative to squeeze a few bucks out of them greedy players while saving costs by shutting down for a year but the big three surely would be strongly opposed not only for huge lost gate revenues and continued fixed costs regardless, but also for massive lost media content. add to that the sheer rudeness of screwing over the newest member at the table before their first year even begins.

that said tho ... i have a crazy theory that perhaps you are right ... perhaps the plan always has been scrapping the season, for whatever number of convoluted and opposing reasons. perhaps belgers was taken out back just before the purchase of mlse completed and informed no hockey this year, take it or leave it. perhaps teachers dumped the whole thing because they were already so informed and they couldnt afford not to have that revenue stream to make pension payments.

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01-05-2013, 04:43 PM
  #439
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Actually, a good portion of the excess fortunes of the uber wealthy class is usually most often donated toward charitable causes as it is tax advantageous to do so. It goes toward the greater good as such.

Mod...
true, but in reality that portion should probably be closer to 100% than say, 10%. As the saying goes, you cant take it with you. and truth be told, for every descendant who takes great wealth and does goosd with it, like John D Rockefeller Jr, you get 10 Paris hiltons, people who are famous simply because they are loaded with more money than common sense. the gap in wealth inequality now is greater than any point in our history, when the upper fifth own roughly 90% of the countries wealth, thats NOT a good thing. there will always be rich and poor, but spreading some of that excess wealth to the lower clases will have a multiplying effect. the poorer you are the more likely you are to spend every cent you can get your hands on. there are two ways of redistributing wealth, from the rich to the poor and the poor to the rich. i would argue since the 1983 tax reforms we have seen the latter happen in this country, a vast majority of the wealth increase over the last thirty years has gone to the upper 20% while those who get money through a salary have seen their purchasing power either stagnate or decline. it used to be that marginal rates were very high, to prevent accumulation of immense wealth, and companies who made profits paid that money back to the shareholders and workers through dividends. to be blunt. we should go back to those two things.

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01-05-2013, 04:53 PM
  #440
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....for every descendant who takes great wealth and does good with it, like John D Rockefeller Jr, you get 10 Paris hiltons, people who are famous simply because they are loaded with more money than common sense.


ah, no, your actually not.
Soooo back on topic plz.

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01-05-2013, 04:55 PM
  #441
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sorry for the rant killion, back on topic. i dont see how jamison buys the team. dont you normally prove you have the cash, AND name who you're bringing in as your investors. with jamison its like a 70s dating show. guess whos behind the curtain?

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01-05-2013, 05:10 PM
  #442
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sorry for the rant killion, back on topic. i dont see how jamison buys the team. dont you normally prove you have the cash, AND name who you're bringing in as your investors. with jamison its like a 70s dating show. guess whos behind the curtain?
You would think, I mean, who in their right minds just commits
to a $300M+ investment to a Frontman for God only knows?...
Far worse than a blind-date & The Dating Game Im afraid...



... only in Gongdale.

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01-05-2013, 05:16 PM
  #443
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I'd compare it something out of Clerks or Harold and Kumar Escape from Guantonamo Bay.Heck its soomething I'd expect out of Chech and Chong when they were stoned out of thier minds, instead of a city legitimately offering me 300 milion, based on my word and a ' mystery box"


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01-05-2013, 08:14 PM
  #444
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it used to be that marginal rates were very high, to prevent accumulation of immense wealth, and companies who made profits paid that money back to the shareholders and workers through dividends. to be blunt. we should go back to those two things.
Companies that make profits normally do redistribute that money back to shareholders over time. Those that intentionally choose to invest into extreme high risk endeavors are the ones often left chasing losses as a result though. I fail to see why the accumulation of wealth is even an issue; it is the wealthy that employ the majority and it is the wealthy that make the vast majority of charitable contributions. That is usually due that they are also our most efficient citizens, those able to do the most with resources available to them. Take away that incentive and you are left with the example of the formerly communist countries, those with a history of misery for all. Thanks, but no thanks.

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01-05-2013, 08:49 PM
  #445
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Geraldo about to open mystery safe with list of Gramps Jamsion investors.


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01-05-2013, 09:26 PM
  #446
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Geraldo about to open mystery safe with list of Gramps Jamsion investors.
... thats just.... terrible sipowicz. But dangit, it is funny.

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01-06-2013, 04:44 AM
  #447
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Geraldo about to open mystery safe with list of Gramps Jamsion investors.

Great one and I don`t mean Gretzky

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01-06-2013, 04:46 AM
  #448
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Great one and I don`t mean Gretzky
Greater yet,lockout over,ya baby

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01-06-2013, 07:00 AM
  #449
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Nick Kypreos‏@RealKyper

"@JSportsnet: On heels of tentative CBA deal, good news from Phoenix the Jamison Group on verge of announcing purchase of Coyotes from NHL"


Retweeted by Michael Grange
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01-06-2013, 07:08 AM
  #450
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Nick Kypreos‏@RealKyper

"@JSportsnet: On heels of tentative CBA deal, good news from Phoenix the Jamison Group on verge of announcing purchase of Coyotes from NHL"


Retweeted by Michael Grange
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Oh really? What would he have done had they not been able to come to an agreement and the season was lost?

On the plus side, we might yet get to see some real fireworks this month...

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