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Phoenix LXVII; Route66 - Aftermath

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Old
01-10-2013, 10:15 AM
  #701
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Originally Posted by Fidel Astro View Post
I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but isn't that pretty much what they have to do?

In all seriousness, I think everyone knows the Coyotes are very unlikely to sell out every game, even with a new owner, so they're going to have to do something to increase the amount of money they take in. Isn't increasing the prices the only possible solution?
The most definitely have to raise ticket prices to generate more revenue, the question is by how much and when.

I wouldn't do anything this year, because of the lockout and it being just a half season, but next year maybe start off with a small 3% increase and see how it goes.

He must know he has to generate more revenue and how else to do that but to increase ticket prices. So what happens if prices go up 3-5% and people decide to stay away? If after the new CBA, revenue sharing, and AMF, Jamison still has to raise ticket prices by say 25% to break even, what does he do if he just can't because nobody will pay that increase? I still can't believe Jamison didn't put any performance clauses or clauses like ticket price increases into his lease agreement or AMF agreement.

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01-10-2013, 10:41 AM
  #702
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Goodness knows what they would have to raise tickets to in order to break even, but a 3% annual rate won't get them to 25% fast enough.

Here's how many years it would take to raise tickets by 25% to 50% (rows) at constant annual growth rates (columns).

 3%4%5%
25%865
30%976
40%1297
50%14119

In all cases there would have to be additional growth in order to keep up with inflation.

It's a tough pickle GJ

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01-10-2013, 10:49 AM
  #703
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Originally Posted by Fidel Astro View Post
I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but isn't that pretty much what they have to do?

In all seriousness, I think everyone knows the Coyotes are very unlikely to sell out every game, even with a new owner, so they're going to have to do something to increase the amount of money they take in. Isn't increasing the prices the only possible solution?
No, I think getting people hooked on going down is the main goal. So inexpensive tickets is the way to go. I'd be strict on not letting people from the nose bleeds down into the lower bowl. When that happens you only tick off the fans that paid extra for the better seats. I wouldn't give food and drinks with tickets either, sell the seats for whatever, 5 or 10 bucks. Charge full price for concessions. It will take a couple of years for the habit of going down to games to develop, then the team could slowly raise prices.

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01-10-2013, 10:58 AM
  #704
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Originally Posted by Stix and Stones View Post
No, I think getting people hooked on going down is the main goal. So inexpensive tickets is the way to go. I'd be strict on not letting people from the nose bleeds down into the lower bowl. When that happens you only tick off the fans that paid extra for the better seats. I wouldn't give food and drinks with tickets either, sell the seats for whatever, 5 or 10 bucks. Charge full price for concessions. It will take a couple of years for the habit of going down to games to develop, then the team could slowly raise prices.
Losing 10s of Millions of dollars, per year, in the process. Some (billionaire) owners can sustain that for a while. GJ? Does he even have enough to buy the team yet?


Last edited by David_99: 01-10-2013 at 11:03 AM.
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01-10-2013, 11:08 AM
  #705
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Losing 10s of Millions of dollars, per year, in the process. Some (billionaire) owners can sustain that for a while. GJ? Does he even have enough to buy the team yet?
He better be prepared to lose for a while, there is no overnight cure here.

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01-10-2013, 11:24 AM
  #706
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...it's a shame that bettman et al. were unable to harness the momentum of last years deep playoff run and give this hypothetical new lease on life a fighting chance.
Ya, really messed up & missed the boat on that one; Columbus as well, whereby they'd finally gotten their lease straightened out, hired a new President & GM in John Davidson, all set to host the ASG, wind returning to their sails. Really, you can look around the league, elsewhere, Dallas another, LA having just won the SC & so on.

Hypothetically speaking, we know that Jamison has until January 31st to close, so what Im wondering is if, IF he manages to do so & does purchase the team, wouldnt it make more sense to have the actual transfer & possession occur upon conclusion of this abbreviated season? This would give him time to re-build the front office (marketing, sales, media relations etc) while the NHL continues on in its Caretaker role, collecting an amortised portion of year ones AMF. On the one hand Jamison & the NHL are boxed-in, whereby a deal has to be consummated & closed by the end of January; on the other hand, why would you want to take the keys & possession of the club coming out of a Lockout, shortened season?

All of the clubs are going to have to hit the ground running (or not as weve seen from the NHL itself over the past several seasons), and we've seen no real sign that Jamisons even close to approaching the starting blocks, getting into a crouch, putting his head down and going for the Gold. Just casual comments about his one time pursuit of being a completely amateur middle distance runner, telegraphing tree's & course bushes every hundred yards or so, running the race in increments. Well, I know a little somethin about Distance Running, and I can tell you thats NOT how you run a race like that. You dont "mark tree's" & run in "increments"; you see "past & beyond" landmarks, entering the realms of metaphysical as your in serious frikin pain generally about 400M's into it if running a 1500M or 3000M race, setting one Hell of a pace because LOSING is not an option. You wanna admire trees & nature, go join the Sierra Club. You see "past the finish line" in a distance race and you run it out of body because if ya dont, it'll shut down.


Last edited by Killion: 01-10-2013 at 11:30 AM.
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01-10-2013, 11:28 AM
  #707
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
on the other hand, why would you want to take the keys & possession of the club coming out of a Lockout, shortened season?
indeed


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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
All of the clubs are going to have to hit the ground running (or not as weve seen from the NHL itself over the past several seasons), and we've seen no real sign that Jamisons even close to approaching the starting blocks, getting into a crouch, putting his head down and going for the Gold. Just casual comments about his one time pursuit of being a completely amateur middle distance runner, telegraphing tree's & course bushes every hundred yards or so, running the race in increments. Well, I know a little somethin about Distance Running, and I can tell you thats NOT how you run a race like that. You dont "mark tree's" & run in "increments"; you see "past & beyond" landmarks, entering the realms of metaphysical as your in serious frikin pain generally about 400M's into it if running a 1500M or 3000M race, setting one Hell of a pace because LOSING is not an option!. You see "past the finish line" in a distance race and you run it out of body because if ya dont, it'll shut down.
oh yeah? you mean you don't just try to "make it to a tree" when your running a one miler?

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01-10-2013, 11:38 AM
  #708
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...oh yeah? you mean you don't just try to "make it to a tree" when your running a one miler?
... depends on how much you've had to drink I suppose. Mebbe he took pitsz stahps?

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01-10-2013, 11:39 AM
  #709
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You say this because selling out their first game back would be positive news. You are heading it off at the pass by saying 'hey! Look over here! Don't look at that better than expected attendance. It's the big picture that is the flavor of the day.'

Selling out that arena would be a good thing for all. But since the Jets are doing well in attendance for now, you can put this out there. Plus the Jets have nothing to do with this at all.

And to correct you respectfully, attendance is part of the puzzle and filling the arena is part of solving this problem because it shows support of the team. IF ticket prices sky rocketed the first year of ownership, that would be the worst idea and business model ever.
Attendance is trivial at best. Why? Because 1) ticketprices are low. 2) give-aways occur. What matters is the black & red ink, Jets are in the black, Coyotes deep in the red.

You can't compare the Jets to the Coyotes they are worlds apart. The Jets make really good money with one of the smallest rinks in the league, the Coyotes don't with one of the bigger rinks in the league.

T-minus 3 weeks and counting to the purchase deadline.

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01-10-2013, 12:02 PM
  #710
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No, I think getting people hooked on going down is the main goal. So inexpensive tickets is the way to go. I'd be strict on not letting people from the nose bleeds down into the lower bowl. When that happens you only tick off the fans that paid extra for the better seats. I wouldn't give food and drinks with tickets either, sell the seats for whatever, 5 or 10 bucks. Charge full price for concessions. It will take a couple of years for the habit of going down to games to develop, then the team could slowly raise prices.
They've already had a decade and a half to "hook" people, though. I'm pretty convinced that "hey, there's a new owner" is not going to change the mind of Joe Arizonan who has been a football fan all his life and doesn't give two ***** about hockey. He's still not going to show up.

So cheap tickets, to me, really don't seem like they'll make a difference. They haven't in the past, so there's no reason to assume anything will change. The small group of hockey fans down there will continue going to games, while the rest of the people will continue ignoring it.

If there are people from that existing crowd who lost interest due to the lockout, that's an even smaller group from the get-go. Raise the prices, and some of those people will drop off as well.

I don't understand why anyone thinks keeping a team there is a good idea.

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01-10-2013, 12:31 PM
  #711
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
...

Hypothetically speaking, we know that Jamison has until January 31st to close, so what Im wondering is if, IF he manages to do so & does purchase the team, wouldnt it make more sense to have the actual transfer & possession occur upon conclusion of this abbreviated season? This would give him time to re-build the front office (marketing, sales, media relations etc) while the NHL continues on in its Caretaker role, collecting an amortised portion of year ones AMF. On the one hand Jamison & the NHL are boxed-in, whereby a deal has to be consummated & closed by the end of January; on the other hand, why would you want to take the keys & possession of the club coming out of a Lockout, shortened season?

...
I don't think that Jamison and the NHL have any interest in giving even a slight chance to GWI or someone else the opportunity to re-open the deal and re-negotiate something. Lets not forget that the new council does not seem pro-Coyotes and while the mayor did say he will honor what the previous council signed (meaning he probably won't be able to cancel the AMF once it takes effect) he would probably seize any occasion allowing him to not be stuck with this AMF for the next 20 years.

And can Jamison really afford to say no to $15M budgeted for him ?

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01-10-2013, 12:45 PM
  #712
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FWIW a good friend of the family was in Phoenix last year, he asked at his hotel front desk if he can get any tickets to the Coyotes game and what he would pay.

The concierge said he can most definitely get tickets he should purchase the cheapest ones available and just move down once the puck drops since no one cares anyways.

The friend went to the game said there looked to be no more than 6,000 people at it, this was mid February.

With that type of mentality within the market it's no wonder the team is struggling financially.

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01-10-2013, 12:48 PM
  #713
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T-minus 3 weeks and counting to the purchase deadline.
I had lost sight of this date in all the CBA/training camp/Burkie excitement of the last few days!

Only 7 sleeps until there are 2 weeks left! Will the purchase go through prior to the (possibly) final 2 week deadline?

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01-10-2013, 12:54 PM
  #714
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I don't really see how "eventually, maybe breaking even" is a very good return on an investment of $150+ million. There's a cost to investing that much money, and that cost needs to be paid back to investors (or lenders) one way or another.

To do better than break even, I think that the business model has to rely heavily on increased revenues from non-hockey events. That could help to cross-subsidize the Coyotes in the short term, and must be a source of profit in the medium and long term. If Jamison can keep the Jobing.com hopping then it will take a lot of pressure of the need to generate a lot more revenue (or cut costs) on the Coyotes operation.

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01-10-2013, 01:08 PM
  #715
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I don't really see how "eventually, maybe breaking even" is a very good return on an investment of $150+ million. There's a cost to investing that much money, and that cost needs to be paid back to investors (or lenders) one way or another.

To do better than break even, I think that the business model has to rely heavily on increased revenues from non-hockey events. That could help to cross-subsidize the Coyotes in the short term, and must be a source of profit in the medium and long term. If Jamison can keep the Jobing.com hopping then it will take a lot of pressure of the need to generate a lot more revenue (or cut costs) on the Coyotes operation.
See that's just it, TNSE filled the MTS Centre with many more events during the lockout to offset lost revenue.

Wonder if Jobbing.com has a nice thick coat of dust on all the seats and concession stands by now.

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01-10-2013, 01:10 PM
  #716
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http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/spo...186334842.html

Quote:
Chipman also couldn't say whether the deal might serve as a disincentive to move teams out of failing markets like Phoenix.
Little tid-bit in an article about the CBA's effects on the WPG market. Unknown effects for marginal markets.

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01-10-2013, 01:14 PM
  #717
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See that's just it, TNSE filled the MTS Centre with many more events during the lockout to offset lost revenue.

Wonder if Jobbing.com has a nice thick coat of dust on all the seats and concession stands by now.
In fairness to the CoG, the JOB has been totally under used the last 3 years, but I put that blame on the people responsible for running the arena... the NHL ( or whomever they have booking events ). The NHL has put no effort into trying to fill the facility at all with other events, so it is hard to say what will happen with someone ( Jamison ) that actually has an incentive to make a go of it.

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01-10-2013, 01:20 PM
  #718
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In fairness to the CoG, the JOB has been totally under used the last 3 years, but I put that blame on the people responsible for running the arena... the NHL ( or whomever they have booking events ). The NHL has put no effort into trying to fill the facility at all with other events, so it is hard to say what will happen with someone ( Jamison ) that actually has an incentive to make a go of it.
True enough. Though the track record prior to bankruptcy speaks otherwise.

The major problem is there are 3 other major sports leagues where these sports are meant to be played in this type of climate. Hockey isn't and is likely why the market hasn't caught on.

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01-10-2013, 01:29 PM
  #719
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In fairness to the CoG, the JOB has been totally under used the last 3 years, but I put that blame on the people responsible for running the arena... the NHL ( or whomever they have booking events ). The NHL has put no effort into trying to fill the facility at all with other events, so it is hard to say what will happen with someone ( Jamison ) that actually has an incentive to make a go of it.
Absolutely.

There are two main challenges for Jamison, should he complete the purchase of the Coyotes: 1) improving the balance sheet of the Coyotes operation so that it loses less money in the short term, and at least breaks even; 2) increasing profits from the Jobing.com from non-hockey events to offset the Coyotes' losses and recoup his Coyotes investment. The first challenge will require deft building of the market and managing expenses while keeping the team competitive enough to build and maintain a fan base. The second will require him to compete successfully with other Phoenix-area venues to book lucrative events.

What seems obvious is that the financially attractive aspect of the deal is getting the use and virtually all of the revenue streams from the Jobing.com arena. The AMF seems like a nice bonus, but in truth it will just be used to offset the financial drain from the Coyotes in the near to medium term, after which time it starts to taper in real dollars. The AMF should be seen as the financial inducement from the COG for Jamison to take on the ownership of the Coyotes.

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01-10-2013, 01:56 PM
  #720
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True enough. Though the track record prior to bankruptcy speaks otherwise.

The major problem is there are 3 other major sports leagues where these sports are meant to be played in this type of climate. Hockey isn't and is likely why the market hasn't caught on.
Don't know about that the Cardinals play in dome for a reason and the Diamondbacks Chase field has a swimming pool for fans and a retractable roof that is closed for afternoon games.

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01-10-2013, 02:02 PM
  #721
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True enough. Though the track record prior to bankruptcy speaks otherwise.

The major problem is there are 3 other major sports leagues where these sports are meant to be played in this type of climate. Hockey isn't and is likely why the market hasn't caught on.
I think your posts about the Phoenix market are fair and spot on, and I will avoid any excuses for the market (although I do believe hockey is such a great sport it could prosper in any area given the right leadership - which the Coyotes have never really had). But I believe the problem with the Coyotes is beyond climate. At times, ownership could not have done a better job of screwing things up if they had tried. But this league in particular is about butts in the seats and as a STH since year one, I can tell you butts in the seats have always been a problem.

Perhaps our weather over the next several days will signal a new wind. You see, we are expecting night time temps in the 20 degree F range for the next several days. Maybe hell really is freezing over and this marks a new page for the organization. Either way, I will enjoy this lockout shortened season whether it is the last or the first of many more.

Cheers hockey fans.

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01-10-2013, 02:08 PM
  #722
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FWIW a good friend of the family was in Phoenix last year, he asked at his hotel front desk if he can get any tickets to the Coyotes game and what he would pay.

The concierge said he can most definitely get tickets he should purchase the cheapest ones available and just move down once the puck drops since no one cares anyways.

The friend went to the game said there looked to be no more than 6,000 people at it, this was mid February.

With that type of mentality within the market it's no wonder the team is struggling financially.
the low crowd last mid-February was probably the Kings game. The mid-Feb games were Dallas Chicago & La. Chicago was a sellout, Dallas was close to a sellout and LA was definitely a weak crowd, but it wasn't as low as 6000.

February was a pretty good month for us, points wise, at home. I don't remember any February games 2/3rd empty, but if you'd have said 8,000-9000 I'd buy that for the LA game.

(EDIT: I just looked it up and the league announced a little over 10,000 for the Kings game & just over 10,000 for the 2/9 Calgary game. But hey, with the current exchange rates 10000 US is about 6000 Canadian right?)

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01-10-2013, 02:09 PM
  #723
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Don't know about that the Cardinals play in dome for a reason and the Diamondbacks Chase field has a swimming pool for fans and a retractable roof that is closed for afternoon games.
I think that is more because we have the good sense to plan around the elements, and not whether the climate presents a problem per sa. 100 degrees outside or -20 and a foot of snow. You say "tomato" I say "tomato". And last I checked, no NHL arena is open air, and most kids these days play their hockey inside rinks, and not on the pond like you and I might have back in the day.

Having said that, I recognize that hockey is culturally Canada. I think that is more the issue than climate.

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01-10-2013, 02:18 PM
  #724
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the low crowd last mid-February was probably the Kings game. The mid-Feb games were Dallas Chicago & La. Chicago was a sellout, Dallas was close to a sellout and LA was definitely a weak crowd, but it wasn't as low as 6000.

February was a pretty good month for us, points wise, at home. I don't remember any February games 2/3rd empty, but if you'd have said 8,000-9000 I'd buy that for the LA game.

(EDIT: I just looked it up and the league announced a little over 10,000 for the Kings game & just over 10,000 for the 2/9 Calgary game. But hey, with the current exchange rates 10000 US is about 6000 Canadian right?)
Sold seats and used seats aren't the same thing my friend...

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01-10-2013, 02:29 PM
  #725
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Sold seats and used seats aren't the same thing my friend...
And someone looking around the arena and estimating 6000 is not a reliable way to determine attendance either my friend....

I'm at 90% of the games. I heard last year people throw out numbers of what they observed at Coyote games (sometime from what they think they could calculate from a photo or from television) in terms of attendance. Were there games of less than 10,000? Of course, plenty. I think there might have been games in October and November of perhaps 6,000 or 7,000 even. I'm not defending attendance. It's bad. That horse is dead. My only point is official attendance is what everyone uses, and not just the Coyotes.

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