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Phoenix LXVII; Route66 - Aftermath

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Old
01-10-2013, 02:34 PM
  #726
sipowicz
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To entice fans back after the lockout the Coyotes will be giving out free merchandise, will offer $1. beer, $1. hotdogs, $1. pop, two for one pricing, the lowest ticket prices in the league, free parking..... what?....OH, they do that every year. My bad.

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01-10-2013, 02:45 PM
  #727
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Originally Posted by yotesreign View Post
the low crowd last mid-February was probably the Kings game. The mid-Feb games were Dallas Chicago & La. Chicago was a sellout, Dallas was close to a sellout and LA was definitely a weak crowd, but it wasn't as low as 6000.

February was a pretty good month for us, points wise, at home. I don't remember any February games 2/3rd empty, but if you'd have said 8,000-9000 I'd buy that for the LA game.

(EDIT: I just looked it up and the league announced a little over 10,000 for the Kings game & just over 10,000 for the 2/9 Calgary game. But hey, with the current exchange rates 10000 US is about 6000 Canadian right?)
Potentially was the Kings game, though he didn't say.

I'm not taking his word as gospel the point was that a hotel concierge encouraged him to buy the cheapest and use the most expensive (which he did).

FWIW I actually laughed out loud at your exchange rate comment, well done!

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Originally Posted by goyotes View Post
I think your posts about the Phoenix market are fair and spot on, and I will avoid any excuses for the market (although I do believe hockey is such a great sport it could prosper in any area given the right leadership - which the Coyotes have never really had). But I believe the problem with the Coyotes is beyond climate. At times, ownership could not have done a better job of screwing things up if they had tried. But this league in particular is about butts in the seats and as a STH since year one, I can tell you butts in the seats have always been a problem.

Perhaps our weather over the next several days will signal a new wind. You see, we are expecting night time temps in the 20 degree F range for the next several days. Maybe hell really is freezing over and this marks a new page for the organization. Either way, I will enjoy this lockout shortened season whether it is the last or the first of many more.

Cheers hockey fans.
I applaud you for being one of the dedicated few. It's too bad there weren't many more like you. Though I was suggesting the climate may be one of the reasons the market hasn't caught on but not the end all be all reason.

Wow, that's actually cold for your area, maybe Hell Hath Frozen over!


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01-10-2013, 02:51 PM
  #728
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well said killion. as someone who ran cross country in high school, i can tell you it is very much a mental thing. you have to learn to ignore the signals your body is sending you, otherwise you'll never finish. in this case jamison has a long race ahead of him, up a series of steep hills, while in a pack of experienced runners all vying for the same goal. did i mention no one from his area has ever completed this course?

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01-10-2013, 03:33 PM
  #729
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Originally Posted by yotesreign View Post
the low crowd last mid-February was probably the Kings game. The mid-Feb games were Dallas Chicago & La. Chicago was a sellout, Dallas was close to a sellout and LA was definitely a weak crowd, but it wasn't as low as 6000.

February was a pretty good month for us, points wise, at home. I don't remember any February games 2/3rd empty, but if you'd have said 8,000-9000 I'd buy that for the LA game.

(EDIT: I just looked it up and the league announced a little over 10,000 for the Kings game & just over 10,000 for the 2/9 Calgary game. But hey, with the current exchange rates 10000 US is about 6000 Canadian right?)
The NHL announced attendance is for tickets distributed not tickets sold.Canadian dollar currently kicking ass

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01-10-2013, 03:34 PM
  #730
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Originally Posted by NickWIHockey View Post
well said killion. as someone who ran cross country in high school, i can tell you it is very much a mental thing....
Ya. I mean, the only people I knew of who payed attention to tree's were those who cheated, went & hid behind them and had a smoke.... took a shortcut through hill & dale, jogged back onto the course acting completely exhausted, crawling on all fours across the finish line in first & second place like they were Abrahams & Liddell in Chariots of Fire, the only thing missing being Vangelis wonderful soundtrack.... and you see them do it, as you've run the entire race, badly in need of oxygen, wawa, mama, a frikin ambulance to emergency.

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01-10-2013, 03:36 PM
  #731
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You say this because selling out their first game back would be positive news. You are heading it off at the pass by saying 'hey! Look over here! Don't look at that better than expected attendance. It's the big picture that is the flavor of the day.'

Selling out that arena would be a good thing for all. But since the Jets are doing well in attendance for now, you can put this out there. Plus the Jets have nothing to do with this at all.

And to correct you respectfully, attendance is part of the puzzle and filling the arena is part of solving this problem because it shows support of the team. IF ticket prices sky rocketed the first year of ownership, that would be the worst idea and business model ever.
Wow, are you that paranoid that you read into my post that I am insulting the yotes? Did you even read my post or did you just assume I was attacking your team since I was from Winnipeg?

I state that I think that attendance will be good for this shortened season and you attack me? I compare the average tickets sales for the yotes to the maximum number of tickets the jets can sell (note this is different then the actual sales even if they currently are the same number) to demonstrate that the attendance is not as bad as everyone thinks and you attack me. The average attendance for the Yotes is on 2000 off the maximum capacity of the Jets arena; therefore, attendance is not that bad.

That being said, the problem for the franchise is the price of tickets and lower revenue from non ticket sales not the attendance. Could the attendance be higher? of course but the ticket prices need to go up as well. Since we are past Christmas, I would not be surprised that the average attendance of the Yotes equals or exceeds the Jets this shortened season.

I am not sure what you are correcting, I never said the tickets should sky rocket in the first year. All I stated is that prices have to rise.

You need to relax a bit.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GuelphStormer View Post
you cannot be serious.

regardless, I also hope opening nite is a sellout. it would be the respectful thing to do for such a great season last year. hanging the banner will be a great moment for diehard fans, im sure.

it's a shame that bettman et al. were unable to harness the momentum of last years deep playoff run and give this hypothetical new lease on life a fighting chance.
Yes I am serious. What is the maximum attendance of the Jets? ESPN states that the average attendance of the Yotes was 13,000? You do the math. Now we can get into the arguments of free tickets inflating attendance numbers etc, however, unless you can actually prove that is happening you have to take the report at face value. The fact the stands may not reflect the stated attendance does not mean they have not been sold. People buy tickets and do not show up all the time.

That leads me to my comment, attendance is not the real problem. Ticket price and other sources of revenue being the main problem. Lower then normal sponsorships, people having tickets and not showing up to buy beer etc.

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01-10-2013, 03:47 PM
  #732
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I find it very hard to believe with all the perks Jamieson will be getting, that he will be that much worse off than a team like Ottawa or Buffalo.

The owners of the Yotes will get 15 million in RS, plus 17 million per year to run the place. Already without selling a ticket they are getting about 800,000 every home game.

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01-10-2013, 04:06 PM
  #733
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Originally Posted by aj8000 View Post
Wow, are you that paranoid that you read into my post that I am insulting the yotes? Did you even read my post or did you just assume I was attacking your team since I was from Winnipeg?

I state that I think that attendance will be good for this shortened season and you attack me? I compare the average tickets sales for the yotes to the maximum number of tickets the jets can sell (note this is different then the actual sales even if they currently are the same number) to demonstrate that the attendance is not as bad as everyone thinks and you attack me. The average attendance for the Yotes is on 2000 off the maximum capacity of the Jets arena; therefore, attendance is not that bad.

That being said, the problem for the franchise is the price of tickets and lower revenue from non ticket sales not the attendance. Could the attendance be higher? of course but the ticket prices need to go up as well. Since we are past Christmas, I would not be surprised that the average attendance of the Yotes equals or exceeds the Jets this shortened season.

I am not sure what you are correcting, I never said the tickets should sky rocket in the first year. All I stated is that prices have to rise.

You need to relax a bit.




Yes I am serious. What is the maximum attendance of the Jets? ESPN states that the average attendance of the Yotes was 13,000? You do the math. Now we can get into the arguments of free tickets inflating attendance numbers etc, however, unless you can actually prove that is happening you have to take the report at face value. The fact the stands may not reflect the stated attendance does not mean they have not been sold. People buy tickets and do not show up all the time.

That leads me to my comment, attendance is not the real problem. Ticket price and other sources of revenue being the main problem. Lower then normal sponsorships, people having tickets and not showing up to buy beer etc.
Question for you,have you ever purchased NHL Center Ice package from your cable or satellite provider? One more,are you saying that when the NHL announces 13,000 tickets distributed and there are clearly less than 10,000, those empty seats are sold tickets to people who decided not to go to that game.Keep in mind that losses are over 35m per year.

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01-10-2013, 04:07 PM
  #734
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NickWIHockey View Post
well said killion. as someone who ran cross country in high school, i can tell you it is very much a mental thing. you have to learn to ignore the signals your body is sending you, otherwise you'll never finish. in this case jamison has a long race ahead of him, up a series of steep hills, while in a pack of experienced runners all vying for the same goal. did i mention no one from his area has ever completed this course?
who knew whom Greg Jamison was in Cleveland, Nick, when the Gunds got out of the ownership business and sold their operation to SVSE, before Dan Gilbert bought the Cleveland part of the business, how is that any different from Jamison running the Sharks, and switching to the Coyotes? remember Craig Leopold, didn't he run Nashville, then sold out and bought the Wild?

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01-10-2013, 04:19 PM
  #735
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Originally Posted by pondnorth View Post
Question for you,have you ever purchased NHL Center Ice package from your cable or satellite provider? One more,are you saying that when the NHL announces 13,000 tickets distributed and there are clearly less than 10,000, those empty seats are sold tickets to people who decided not to go to that game.Keep in mind that losses are over 35m per year.
Source? People love to throw around losses as if they have seen the books. Please present a source other than some reporter "reporting" that losses are "reported" to be $35M a year. Guess what...there isn't one.

Attendance is bad, team has lost money. Horse is dead. It was killed on this board years ago. I guess the proof will be in whether GJ closes. If he doesn't, the venture could not pencil out for lenders and/or investors. If he does, well than I guess "reported" losses were inflated. What a surprise that would be....

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01-10-2013, 04:28 PM
  #736
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Originally Posted by pondnorth View Post
Question for you,have you ever purchased NHL Center Ice package from your cable or satellite provider? One more,are you saying that when the NHL announces 13,000 tickets distributed and there are clearly less than 10,000, those empty seats are sold tickets to people who decided not to go to that game.Keep in mind that losses are over 35m per year.
First of all, what does Center ice have to do with this discussion?

What would be the point of inflating the numbers? Make the NHL feel good? So they can pay the COG more money per ticket for parking? So we can laugh at them? Considering you cannot see the upper deck on TV, you really cannot tell how full the place is unless you are there. Maybe most of the yotes fans are camera shy and make sure they get tickets that are off camera.

The losses are high because ticket prices are too low and other revenues are low as well and have to rise. Selling a ticket rather than giving it away would be a price increase.

Telling me to keep and mind the losses are 35 million a year does not support your argument.

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01-10-2013, 04:39 PM
  #737
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Originally Posted by goyotes View Post
Source? People love to throw around losses as if they have seen the books. Please present a source other than some reporter "reporting" that losses are "reported" to be $35M a year. Guess what...there isn't one.

Attendance is bad, team has lost money. Horse is dead. It was killed on this board years ago. I guess the proof will be in whether GJ closes. If he doesn't, the venture could not pencil out for lenders and/or investors. If he does, well than I guess "reported" losses were inflated. What a surprise that would be....
Source www.azcentral.com/ic/communit...es-invoice.pdf

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01-10-2013, 04:46 PM
  #738
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Originally Posted by aj8000 View Post
First of all, what does Center ice have to do with this discussion?

What would be the point of inflating the numbers? Make the NHL feel good? So they can pay the COG more money per ticket for parking? So we can laugh at them? Considering you cannot see the upper deck on TV, you really cannot tell how full the place is unless you are there. Maybe most of the yotes fans are camera shy and make sure they get tickets that are off camera.

The losses are high because ticket prices are too low and other revenues are low as well and have to rise. Selling a ticket rather than giving it away would be a price increase.

Telling me to keep and mind the losses are 35 million a year does not support your argument.
Center Ice allows viewers to see that the building has very few people and includes views of the upper decks.Keep dreaming.Bigger numbers to charge more for advertising or maybe score a larger TV deal,take your pick.

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01-10-2013, 04:50 PM
  #739
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All this proves are the losses for the 2010/2011 season. They add up to 36.609 million, then you subtract the 24.8 million from the COG and you have a a loss of 11.809 million dollars.

The losses from 2010/2011 are not an indication for the losses for 2011/2012. They could be higher, but they are likely lower due to the playoffs.

Like it or not, the money from the COG is revenue for the franchise.

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01-10-2013, 04:55 PM
  #740
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Center Ice allows viewers to see that the building has very few people and includes views of the upper decks.Keep dreaming.Bigger numbers to charge more for advertising or maybe score a larger TV deal,take your pick.
I have seen the pictures that make the arena look empty. What benefit does the NHL get from over inflating the distributed tickets when it is obviously not the actual attendance?

The games I saw from the last bit of last year during the playoff run and the playoffs, the place looked fairly full to me. Then again, I do not have center ice showing m all the empty seats.

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01-10-2013, 05:30 PM
  #741
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My prediction:

In only 1 week there will only be 2 weeks to go

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01-10-2013, 05:53 PM
  #742
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My prediction:

In only 1 week there will only be 2 weeks to go
Until glendale city council extends the deadline after GJ fails to complete the purchase.

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01-10-2013, 06:27 PM
  #743
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Until glendale city council extends the deadline after GJ fails to complete the purchase.
New city council at the table, likely not. If it doesn't happen now it probably never will.

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01-10-2013, 07:20 PM
  #744
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I have seen the pictures that make the arena look empty. What benefit does the NHL get from over inflating the distributed tickets when it is obviously not the actual attendance?

The games I saw from the last bit of last year during the playoff run and the playoffs, the place looked fairly full to me. Then again, I do not have center ice showing m all the empty seats.
By actual attendance,do you mean paid attendance?Paid attendance meaning,tickets paid for and free promotions and 2 for 1 specials.Tickets paid 11000,tickets free 2000.This way only the NHL and Yotes know exactly how many tickets sold and giveaways.You would have to ask the Nhl why they do this .It came up at the BK court.
I agree playoff was much better.

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01-10-2013, 07:26 PM
  #745
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All this proves are the losses for the 2010/2011 season. They add up to 36.609 million, then you subtract the 24.8 million from the COG and you have a a loss of 11.809 million dollars.

The losses from 2010/2011 are not an indication for the losses for 2011/2012. They could be higher, but they are likely lower due to the playoffs.

Like it or not, the money from the COG is revenue for the franchise.
A 37 million per season loss is a loss no matter how you slice and dice it.Show a business plan to show how to make it all work and it has to be a real fast 180 degree turnaround.

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01-10-2013, 07:35 PM
  #746
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Haven't been reading this thread, but is there any information out there as to the TV deal the Coyotes have with Fox Sports Arizona?

I can't imagine it's very much because the Coyotes get played on Fox Sports Arizona + approximately 1/4 the time, if not more. It's a joke, because lots of people don't even get that channel in the valley area.

That's another thing that proper ownership might be able to help with. With the Suns losing any star power they have had recently, I could see the Coyotes coming back and taking over this time of year with viewership.

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01-10-2013, 09:35 PM
  #747
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Haven't been reading this thread, but is there any information out there as to the TV deal the Coyotes have with Fox Sports Arizona?

I can't imagine it's very much because the Coyotes get played on Fox Sports Arizona + approximately 1/4 the time, if not more. It's a joke, because lots of people don't even get that channel in the valley area.

That's another thing that proper ownership might be able to help with. With the Suns losing any star power they have had recently, I could see the Coyotes coming back and taking over this time of year with viewership.
Bankruptcy Documents (Shumway deck) estimated the full potential of Broadcast Revenues at $5MM per year. In 2008-2009 the team budgeted $4.5MM as revenue from the local TV deal. As a point of reference, the team budgeted $14MM for Revenue Sharing and $9.3MM for their cut of League Revenues.

For TV viewership, there is quite a ways to go. A random sample shows:
Sat Feb 18, 2012 Coyotes v Stars on FSAZPLUS - 0.6 rating
Sat Feb 25, 2012 Coyotes @ Oilers on FSAZ - 0.3 rating

For comparison, the Suns did about a 2.7 in Feb 2012. That reportedly down 36% or so from 2011 ratings. It's obviously a non-scientific look but it's just for fun. It's interesting that there might actually be trace amounts of evidence to suggest that a league returning from a work stoppage experiences sluggish ratings upon resuming play. Maybe what seems to be the conventional wisdom is true. Did fans turn their backs on the NBA when they interrupted play to fight over money last year? Did Suns ratings drop because of the NBA lockout? I don't know but I think it's surprising because we seem to generally love watching people fight over money. In fact, the NHL players and the owners might have left big seven figures on the table by not making the whole CBA negotiation a reality show on HBO (...or maybe that charming Mr. Bettman did and we'll all be watching it On Demand at $9.99 per episode over the summer.)

Anyway, the numbers are pretty awful for the Coyotes so I would temper expectations of taking over the viewership, especially if there really is some type of additional disinterest because of the lockout. Also, with numbers that far apart, percentage comparisons and statements should probably be avoided. Any story about the Coyotes "increase ratings 50%" would only mean a 0.9 rating for hockey. At the same time, the Suns could loss another 36% and still have almost double that rating at about 1.77 for basketball. Feel free to check my math on that. I'm an idiot for using specific numbers in the first place, so I hope I did make a basic arithmetic error as a bonus.

Separately, there's no real accounting for new media. I just typed way too many words about television ratings without consideration of online viewing. So the entire concept of basing appeal on network ratings is probably significantly flawed to start with. Please disregard most of the above accordingly.

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01-10-2013, 09:41 PM
  #748
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It might work if someone calls grumpy Greg on the 24th and with a deep voice just says

Ssssseven daysss

before hanging up the phone

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01-10-2013, 10:07 PM
  #749
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It might work if someone calls grumpy Greg on the 24th and with a deep voice just says

Ssssseven daysss

before hanging up the phone
If you do this, I promise I will paypal you $20. But you need to get his voice and your voice recorded.

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01-10-2013, 10:24 PM
  #750
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If you do this, I promise I will paypal you $20. But you need to get his voice and your voice recorded.
I'll consider it

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