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Phoenix LXVII; Route66 - Aftermath

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Old
01-15-2013, 12:39 PM
  #976
Killion
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Originally Posted by CasualFan View Post
As of now, that's an uninspiring guy who hasn't been able to close the transaction despite a year or so of effort.
As a long-time Sharks fan & resident of the Bay Area, Id be interested to hear what your own (and others) impressions were of Greg Jamison while he was running SJSE. By all accounts Ive read & heard, he did a great job, hired pro's to run hockey operations & then left them alone to do their jobs without interference, was active in the community in establishing the Sharks charities; supported grass roots efforts to establish amateur hockey & so on & so forth. Deposed as the majority partners didnt like the direction he was taking in trying to develop non-core-business (hockey) revenue streams, and using their money to do so.

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01-15-2013, 12:45 PM
  #977
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I still don't understand why relocation "should" happen. Yeah, it seems like a dumb investment but so what? If there are parties that want to part with their money (CoG, JIGs potential investors, etc.) that's their prerogative.
As a Canucks fan who pays over $100 to go to a game and still have to sit in the nosebleeds, I'm pretty peeved that my own team doesn't get to keep all the revenue from my support. Instead, I'm paying those high prices so my team can give money to teams like the Coyotes so their fans can enjoy $10 ticket prices (and still not sell out).

The range in micro revenues in the NHL is way too large for the league to support a salary cap that is based on macro revenues. For the long-term health of the game (and to prevent another lockout in 10 years) the league needs to find a way to minimize the gap between the top revenue teams and the bottom. If that means relocating teams from low-revenue markets to higher revenue markets perhaps that's the best option.

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Old
01-15-2013, 12:58 PM
  #978
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I actually don't mind revenue sharing. Most teams experience some lean years now and then, and everyone deserves some help once in a while, no matter who you are. However, with teams like the Coyotes who have never been profitable in their entire existance in Arizona, they have shown that there is no lucrative market in that area of the United States, and are now purley sucking on the **** of everyone else just to survive on the pipedream that one day they will be successful in the desert. It's teams like this that should not be dragging other teams down. It's not fair.

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01-15-2013, 01:02 PM
  #979
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Revenue sharing grows the sport itself and therefore grows the amount of quality players (long term)

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01-15-2013, 01:10 PM
  #980
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
As a Canucks fan who pays over $100 to go to a game and still have to sit in the nosebleeds, I'm pretty peeved that my own team doesn't get to keep all the revenue from my support. Instead, I'm paying those high prices so my team can give money to teams like the Coyotes so their fans can enjoy $10 ticket prices (and still not sell out).

The range in micro revenues in the NHL is way too large for the league to support a salary cap that is based on macro revenues. For the long-term health of the game (and to prevent another lockout in 10 years) the league needs to find a way to minimize the gap between the top revenue teams and the bottom. If that means relocating teams from low-revenue markets to higher revenue markets perhaps that's the best option.
and imagine if you actually owned the team and were obliged to pee your hard earned revenues down the toilet ... like many of us do in toronto by way of rogers or bell stock ... or even worse, as a previous owner by way of simply being a retired teacher whose pension fund was pilfered to help subsidize ticket prices in these markets.

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01-15-2013, 01:18 PM
  #981
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Leaves a Hell of a lot to be desired. He's just.... bland. Gray. Colourless. Foggy. Ethereal. Where's the charisma, the charm, the public pronouncements that Glendale & the fans are dealing with someone who truly has a vision and the hubris to pull this off? He's never claimed to be a "Miracle Man", he hasnt really said or done anything thats in the public domain other than negotiate the Lease Agreement & Arena Management Contract, inserting himself into the Doan Sweepstakes. And to what extent therein, beyond providing Shane with platitudes & possibly promises of a position with the team post retirement, maybe even a piece of it, who knows? Talk is cheap, and unfortunately people make promises for short-term gain all the time they know perfectly well they cant keep.
At least Hulsizer bought Coyotes merchandise, wore it to games, did interviews and even hung out with the team - didn't he take them to dinner?
A lot more involved than Gramps Jamieson.

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01-15-2013, 01:23 PM
  #982
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Originally Posted by Thomas L View Post
I still don't understand why relocation "should" happen. Yeah, it seems like a dumb investment but so what? If there are parties that want to part with their money (CoG, JIGs potential investors, etc.) that's their prerogative.
The problem is that they've been dicking around for years now and not getting anything done. The fanbase was small to begin with, and I have no doubt it dwindles somewhat every month the ownership crisis continues. Add the lockout-related fan loss to that, and assuming Gramps does pull a rabbit out of his ass and saves the team, there's not going to be much of a crowd to play in front of.

So what's the point? Why go through all this rigamarole for so long if the end result is going to be a team that has an owner, but an empty arena? What does that prove? Does Bettman get to pat himself on the back about how the sunbelt travesty "worked" just because some chump buys the Yotes?

It doesn't solve any of the problems. Sure, the team'll be out of the NHL's hands directly, but you have to be crazy to think a new owner is going to suddenly turn the ship around for this team. It's still going to hemmorhage money. It's still going to pull up the rear in attendance numbers. It's still going to have the cheapest prices in the league if there's any hope of attracting a crowd.

I've said it before, but the problem is cultural, and as such, it's unsolvable.

Look at it this way: I'm a Winnipegger. We have a pro baseball team here (I guess it's minor pro, but whatever, it's a high level). I have no interest in baseball whatsoever. It bores the living **** out of me. I'm not going to a baseball game. You could give me free season tickets and I may not even show up. The team won the pennant or championship or whatever they call it, last season. Don't care. It wasn't that I was ill-informed -- I saw ads for the team's games throughout the season. I read about them all year long in the sports section of the daily paper. There was tons of hype around the playoffs. I could probably name a number of players on the team off the top of my head. But I'm not going.

Because it's *baseball*. And I don't care.

I've seen so many people in this ongoing Phoenix debate suggest that all the Yotes need is better advertising, making people more aware that games are happening. Maybe that will attract a few people on the fence, but I get the impression most people down there feel about hockey the way I feel about baseball. They don't give a mother****.

How do you solve that problem? You can't. At least with the Goldeyes, the stadium is small enough that if they get a few thousand patrons out per game, they probably make decent money and the place looks relatively full.

The Yotes, on the other hand, need to sell a hell of a lot more tickets to make any $, and the place always looks empty on TV. There's no way around it. You really think Gramps Jamison is gonna make a difference? Get the **** outta here.

It's not going to matter. It's a bunch of people wasting money for no reason, and *at the expense of real hockey fans*. Move this team to Quebec, instant sellouts *tomorrow*. Immediately. Jets-style. Keep it in AZ, and it'll just get worse every year, new owner or otherwise, and pictures of half-empty arenas will continue to make the NHL a laughingstock.

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Old
01-15-2013, 01:29 PM
  #983
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Originally Posted by GuelphStormer View Post
and imagine if you actually owned the team and were obliged to pee your hard earned revenues down the toilet ... like many of us do in toronto by way of rogers or bell stock ... or even worse, as a previous owner by way of simply being a retired teacher whose pension fund was pilfered to help subsidize ticket prices in these markets.
Well, thats a bit misleading. MLSE was so profitable for the OTPP that they actually decided theyd have to sell it because they were getting taxed so heavily, selling their shares & re-investing them in lower yield investments (Blue Chip of course) in order to actually keep more of their principal. I also believe their portfolio in addition to owning the UK's largest lottery, Samsonite, Cadillac-Fairview & numerous other interests also includes a fairly healthy share in Bell (or maybe its Rogers if not both).

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01-15-2013, 01:45 PM
  #984
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Originally Posted by Joey Jr Shabadoo View Post
At least Hulsizer bought Coyotes merchandise, wore it to games, did interviews and even hung out with the team - didn't he take them to dinner?
Ya, you have a real difference in style between the likes of initially Jerry Reinsdorf followed by IEH & Matthew Hulsizer in comparison to Jamison. Reinsdorf was truculent, "my MOU speaks for itself" with a take it or leave it attitude; IEH's attempting to secure financing through the credit facilities of the COG itself, an absolute no no; Hulsizer at least more "sociable" and open, but unfortunately short pocketed (as proven in St.Louis before anyone jumps in with rebuttals on that score) and "crafty" to say the least; and now Greg Jamison. Last Man Standing, with what appears to be an empty gun, not even wearing the holster properly, no swagger, no steely eyed stare. More akin to being a member of the Apple Dumpling Gang with Tim Conway & Don Knotts than a Lee Van Cleef or Clint Eastwood. Riding into town on the families plough horse. Facing backwards.

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01-15-2013, 01:48 PM
  #985
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Well, thats a bit misleading. MLSE was so profitable for the OTPP that they actually decided theyd have to sell it because they were getting taxed so heavily, selling their shares & re-investing them in lower yield investments (Blue Chip of course) in order to actually keep more of their principal. I also believe their portfolio in addition to owning the UK's largest lottery, Samsonite, Cadillac-Fairview & numerous other interests also includes a fairly healthy share in Bell (or maybe its Rogers if not both).
misleading or not, it makes the point. as to why teachers sold their chunk of mlse, i do not believe they have ever publicly disclosed that. (btw, they sold samsonite years ago)

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01-15-2013, 01:49 PM
  #986
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
As a Canucks fan who pays over $100 to go to a game and still have to sit in the nosebleeds, I'm pretty peeved that my own team doesn't get to keep all the revenue from my support. Instead, I'm paying those high prices so my team can give money to teams like the Coyotes so their fans can enjoy $10 ticket prices (and still not sell out).

The range in micro revenues in the NHL is way too large for the league to support a salary cap that is based on macro revenues. For the long-term health of the game (and to prevent another lockout in 10 years) the league needs to find a way to minimize the gap between the top revenue teams and the bottom. If that means relocating teams from low-revenue markets to higher revenue markets perhaps that's the best option.



I feel the same way, so I just stopped going to games(I live in calgary and the flames are not the cream of the crop anyway so). And I don't buy any merchandise(of any NHL team) cause all of that money just goes to the coyotes. Other teams that are losing money have individual owners and they paying the bills but with the coyotes it is just lose money, lose money and wait for revenue sharing(with the NHL owning the team I wonder where that money goes). The coyotes were not losing money when they were not playing and they will be losing money when they start the season that should tell you something.

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Old
01-15-2013, 01:57 PM
  #987
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misleading or not, it makes the point. as to why teachers sold their chunk of mlse, i do not believe they have ever publicly disclosed that. (btw, they sold samsonite years ago)
No, no statement exactly was forthcoming but it was widely speculated amongst the Bay Street community & tax experts that that was likely the reason. Personally, I dont have a problem with RS whatsoever. Ticket prices, whatever we pay in Vancouver or Toronto, Chicago, NY or Philly for concessions etc, none of those prices will ever go down, nor are they raised because the "have's" are throwing what are effectively pennies from their overall profits into that particular pool.... and they sold Samsonite huh? Does that mean Chicopee no longer has a sponsor for its liquified Midnight Luggage Races down Apple Bowl?


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Old
01-15-2013, 02:39 PM
  #988
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Revenue sharing grows the sport itself and therefore grows the amount of quality players (long term)
Pretty much. That kind of patience is lost on most people in most fields though.

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01-15-2013, 04:04 PM
  #989
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I understand that there's a small group of fans who are passionate about their team and will be upset if (when) it leaves, but I don't have a lot of sympathy for them. If they put together some kind of real grassroots effort to save their team (like we did in Winnipeg, which was way before the Internet made this kind of **** extremely easy to organize), I would shut the **** up about them forever, and I feel like a lot of other naysayers would too.

The fact that they aren't trying, in any measurable way, and just complaining on the Internet about how they're being mistreated, doesn't evoke a lot of "oh, poor Yotes fans" emotions in anyone.

...and then watching Coyotes fans do absolutely bugger-all when their team is in similar jeopardy...
They aren't trying? They aren't doing anything?

I can tell you that I personally know quite a few people who stood out in front of the libraries and other public places in Glendale in 115 degree heat for 3-4 hours at a time - every day, for over a month - in order to save their team.

The group that did that was entirely self-organized, entirely grass-roots. So the assertion that people did absolutely bugger-all other than complain on the internet is completely incorrect.

Just because the group that DID do something about it (and continues to do something about it) isn't trumpeting it loudly on the BOH forum doesn't mean that nobody is doing anything. They've just been a little too busy with their grass roots effort, and they must not feel the need to report it here for validation.

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01-15-2013, 04:41 PM
  #990
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
As a Canucks fan who pays over $100 to go to a game and still have to sit in the nosebleeds, I'm pretty peeved that my own team doesn't get to keep all the revenue from my support. Instead, I'm paying those high prices so my team can give money to teams like the Coyotes so their fans can enjoy $10 ticket prices (and still not sell out).

The range in micro revenues in the NHL is way too large for the league to support a salary cap that is based on macro revenues. For the long-term health of the game (and to prevent another lockout in 10 years) the league needs to find a way to minimize the gap between the top revenue teams and the bottom. If that means relocating teams from low-revenue markets to higher revenue markets perhaps that's the best option.
If the Coyotes were to be moved tomorrow you'd still be paying $100 for those seats. And it's doubtful your team would be spending any more than they are now.

Don't blame other markets for that.

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01-15-2013, 04:46 PM
  #991
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They aren't trying? They aren't doing anything?
When people say that, they mean that as relatively speaking. It's a bit of hyperbolie. Of course there are fans that are trying to save the team, but in terms of sheer numbers compared to Canadian efforts in the past, it may as well be nothing.

Of course the example you gave suggests you are talking about none other than George Faller and BeavisPAC. Harassing elderly men may not be the best way to impress people around here.

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01-15-2013, 05:09 PM
  #992
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If the Coyotes were to be moved tomorrow you'd still be paying $100 for those seats. And it's doubtful your team would be spending any more than they are now.

Don't blame other markets for that.
A lot of people forget this point. The amount of money that teams put into reveue sharing is based on the CBA as agreed to. The CBA is fo 10 years and does not get rewritten if teams are moved.

So the NHL has said that there will be $200M in the revenue sharing pool. This isn't going to change no matter what happens to the Coyotes. In fact even if by some miracle every team in the NHL started to make a profit, the revenue sharing will still exist, and certain teams will still be paying into it.

If fans of the teams that are paying into revenue sharing think their seats would become cheaper if there was no revenue sharing... well they are totally wrong. You are already paying $X and by doing so you have told your team you are willing to pay $X... no way they lower your price per ticket .

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01-15-2013, 05:20 PM
  #993
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That last bit is just plain wrong. They recently changed the laws so businesses can choose to open early on Sundays if they like. Even before that, most businesses opened at noon on Sundays, so there were plenty of people working.

I think this is the correct answer.

You realize, right, if the Coyotes showed any kind of sign of legitimately being able to succeed in their market, the rhetoric would come to a dead stop? The only reason people are still ******** all over the Yotes is because it's very clear to everyone and their dog that the team is a financial disaster in its current location, and would make far more money for the NHL if it was located somewhere else.

I understand that there's a small group of fans who are passionate about their team and will be upset if (when) it leaves, but I don't have a lot of sympathy for them. If they put together some kind of real grassroots effort to save their team (like we did in Winnipeg, which was way before the Internet made this kind of **** extremely easy to organize), I would shut the **** up about them forever, and I feel like a lot of other naysayers would too.

The fact that they aren't trying, in any measurable way, and just complaining on the Internet about how they're being mistreated, doesn't evoke a lot of "oh, poor Yotes fans" emotions in anyone.

**** or get off the pot, mother****ers. I realize it's not entirely on the fans, and that the team has been plagued by poor business decisions, but I do hold the fans somewhat responsible for not showing the parade of ownership candidates that Phoenix *is* a good hockey market and *will* support a team.

In every case, some rich guy has pulled out at the last minute because he was unsure about investing his own money in the team. If Jamison (or any of the other potential guys in the past) saw a massive turnout or some kind of show of solidarity from the fans, maybe he'd be more willing to take the risk.

The fact that the fans haven't done this continues to baffle me, and actually angers me, to a certain extent.

I watched the episode of Hockey: A People's History the other day about the Jets and Nordiques. I was almost in tears. It was like an emotional punch in the gut. I was a teenager when the Jets left, and I remember that **** like it was yesterday. Watching all of the community fundraising efforts, and people talking about how important the team was to their families and to the city, only to see it all fail... and then watching Coyotes fans do absolutely bugger-all when their team is in similar jeopardy...

It just angries up the blood.
Fidel. Good post. It may anger a few people, but the truth hurts sometimes.

P.S. Your people make great stogies. In fact I'm going to light one up around noon on Saturday (in the garage while sipping on some quality Scotch, of course) prior to the game on the big screen Saturday afternoon against the Sens.

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01-15-2013, 05:42 PM
  #994
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It seems pretty obvious that Clark has little, if anything, to do with a Twitter account. Whoever is running it appears to be low intellect, juvenile, but handy with Photoshop. If I ever create a Twitter account, I would want that exact type of character to run it for me.
We're into rather nebulous territory here, don't you think?

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01-15-2013, 06:40 PM
  #995
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So what happens to Jamison if he doesn't buy the team? Best I understand it, the team can't be relocated this season because it's too late to prep any alternate location and since the NHL still owns it and lacks Glendale handing over the money bags to the NHL for this season without that AMF being in place, the NHL will be on the hook for the losses. Wouldn't that make Bettman blow his top and want to take it out on Jamison for leaving the NHL as the one holding the bill? Everything about the NHL's behavior was trying to get others to pay- Glendale or new ownership groups from other cities being charged a hefty relocation fee. Wouldn't this be their least-desirable scenario from their POV?

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01-15-2013, 06:46 PM
  #996
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I'm tired of people bashing the fan base of the Coyotes. There isn't a passionate following? You say NOBODY shows up? FAR BEYOND THE TRUTH!!!!! Coyotes came back from Minnesota to a bunch of fans cheering them on the tarmac of the airport after clinching the Division! Get real, you can hate on Phoenix as much as you want, but there are plenty of passionate fans down here in the desert. Kindly **** OFF!!!!

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01-15-2013, 06:54 PM
  #997
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I'm tired of people bashing the fan base of the Coyotes. There isn't a passionate following? You say NOBODY shows up? FAR BEYOND THE TRUTH!!!!! Coyotes came back from Minnesota to a bunch of fans cheering them on the tarmac of the airport after clinching the Division! Get real, you can hate on Phoenix as much as you want, but there are plenty of passionate fans down here in the desert. Kindly **** OFF!!!!
well said.

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01-15-2013, 07:02 PM
  #998
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Originally Posted by awfulwaffle View Post
I'm tired of people bashing the fan base of the Coyotes. There isn't a passionate following? You say NOBODY shows up? FAR BEYOND THE TRUTH!!!!! Coyotes came back from Minnesota to a bunch of fans cheering them on the tarmac of the airport after clinching the Division! Get real, you can hate on Phoenix as much as you want, but there are plenty of passionate fans down here in the desert. Kindly **** OFF!!!!
x2 except for the last sentence (if you can call it a sentence). I just do not see the point of insulting the fan base either.

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01-15-2013, 07:36 PM
  #999
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My god! I did not visit HFBoard for at least 11 months, and the same discussion is still going on!

So, did Shane Doan signed? ;-)

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01-15-2013, 07:38 PM
  #1000
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Originally Posted by awfulwaffle View Post
I'm tired of people bashing the fan base of the Coyotes. There isn't a passionate following? You say NOBODY shows up? FAR BEYOND THE TRUTH!!!!! Coyotes came back from Minnesota to a bunch of fans cheering them on the tarmac of the airport after clinching the Division! Get real, you can hate on Phoenix as much as you want, but there are plenty of passionate fans down here in the desert. Kindly **** OFF!!!!
Well there is no doubt there are great fans there. Unfortunatly not enought or the team would not be in this mess.

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