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Phoenix LXVII; Route66 - Aftermath

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Old
12-22-2012, 06:25 PM
  #126
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Originally Posted by KevyD View Post
TheLegend is not delusional. He is a fan of a team that has been to hell and back over the last 3 years.
Yet, he comes in here and takes on all comers while taking the high road.

He deserves to keep his team. Good for him.
On the backs of the Glendale taxpayers, police, firemen, janitors, librarians and all other civil servants who have or will be losing their jobs as a result of a bunch of poor decisions made by a group of childish Council members?

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12-22-2012, 06:31 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by GuelphStormer View Post
you dont think that every club knows that? but before they jack up the price, they better fill the seats and keep 'em filled for a few years. its a multi-step process requiring a very strategic, long-term business plan.

thats the main reason im interested in this whole coyotes mess.

as much as i am convincing myself that this whole fiasco has been for reasons that extend well beyond this team in this market ... and who knows what sort of diabolical, evil-genius meta-plan the league has for its overall future ... i am absolutely fascinated to see the business plan the newest hypothetical local owner, a guy named jamison this week, has for the coyotes. i wanna know how he thinks this can be turned around. it's a glitzy business test case but sadly, im still waiting for something, anything, actually related to that plan. quality hockey, build a market, blah blah blah, high school graduations and "that idol show the kids like" isnt terribly satisfying fodder for us business junkies. i want more.
I am right with you in my total fascination of the classic mismanagement of a city`s dollars! The exercise that nobody on the other side wants to take on is a pro forma spread sheet analysis of the income and balance sheet for this franchise. To start with the the expense side is far meatier than most realize and the revenue side is so skinny as be nearly undetectable! My experience says that this is the recipe for financial disaster!

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12-22-2012, 06:45 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by Hawker14 View Post
It's not often people purchase massively cash-flow negative, distressed assets at two to three times value... and there's still been no action by Jamison (and/or his supposed group) as far as I can tell, to finalize the lease/purchase yet.

The fact that Glendale singularly signing the document is somehow deemed newsworthy by John Shannon, and considered as advancing the process, is kind of a joke imo.

Hawker,

You make it sound as if CoG has signed, but Jamison hasn't yet. Is that true? Can anyone answer that?

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12-22-2012, 07:41 PM
  #129
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How many tickets you sell isn't the problem....it's how much you sell them for that counts.....

You can sell 8k tickets per game....as long as you can charge $300 per ticket and every person there has seven $10 beers and eats 3 $9 hotdogs all is good

On a serious note.....if every person that walks into the arena isn't worth over an average of $100 spent on tickets and goodies it is hard to turn a profit in the gate driven NHL

P.S. These numbers were pulled out of my a$$ so take them for what they are worth lol
On your $100.00...600,000 fans equals 60 million, that will cover NHL team payroll and management (maybe)....rent, training staff, travel, portland payroll and all the other "stuff" can't be covered by TV contracts and Jersey sales, so your 100 bucks seems too low. Wait there's that 50/50 thing...and that Idol thing..

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12-22-2012, 07:42 PM
  #130
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Hawker,

You make it sound as if CoG has signed, but Jamison hasn't yet. Is that true? Can anyone answer that?
Look back a page...

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12-22-2012, 10:35 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by mesamonster View Post
I am right with you in my total fascination of the classic mismanagement of a city`s dollars! The exercise that nobody on the other side wants to take on is a pro forma spread sheet analysis of the income and balance sheet for this franchise. To start with the the expense side is far meatier than most realize and the revenue side is so skinny as be nearly undetectable! My experience says that this is the recipe for financial disaster!
Just about everyone in hockey is aware of that except maybe Shane Doan and some members (soon to be former) of the Glendale city council.

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12-23-2012, 12:14 AM
  #132
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Originally Posted by mesamonster View Post
TL, your delusion knows no boundaries! The losses for the year far exceeded $25MM and likely made the $40MM level. Don`t believe me, MInnesota lost $12MM last year with operating fundamentals that put the Coyotes to shame! To say that the two franchises losses were even $10MM apart is disingenuous and naive! Take some time and compare every metric between the two and you will realize your mistake in judgement.

AS for GJ`s $$$$, please enlighten all of us with your source that is a third party and credible! None such information exists. GJ, has been pulling the wool over the Councils eyes for 16 months, not to mention the non-existent media who have refused to vet this guy, a complete sham which is about to be exposed with the passage of time!
I'm not being delusional Mesa.... I called him out for making a claim.

He threw out a number..... just like you are above.... just like several people have over the past 3+ years have done, without sourcing it.

And here you are making a claim of $40million in losses based upon another team's losses, and it has to be true because well..... you feel it just has to be!!!!

Right........

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12-23-2012, 12:26 AM
  #133
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Don't be naive. TL - I would consider you a reasonable intelligent person (for the majority of your posts anyways), so I assume you're bright enough to know that GWI hasn't had anything to challenge yet, nothing has been formally signed by the CoG. Now that the CoG has dealt their hand in full (no bluffs), the rest of us expect GWI to jump on this like a fat kid on cake.

As for deliver the team to Quebec, unlikely, but the team shouldn't remain in Glendale, anywhere else would be better at this point.
They (GWI) didn't have anything at any other time either to act with. Other than Glendale dragging their feet making documentation available.


Quote:
Do you have a credible source? No, no you don't. However one can easily assume since it has taken GJ 16+ MONTHS to raise the capital funding to purchase the team that he likely doesn't have it.

However to give you the benefit of the doubt, he might have some of it, or he might have all of it, no one actually knows, that's the beauty of speculation. Personally I don't think he does otherwise why wouldn't he close when he was getting a much bigger piece of the pie with the old AMF agreement?
My sources are coming from people who are connected to people within Jamison's group. The kind that don't frequent message boards like this one. Weak....?? Certainly. But no more weak than most of the "sources" I see other posters claiming here.


Quote:
No, it really isn't. It's like me sending out a contract for execution to one of my clients, until I sign it, it isn't worth the paper it's written on.
In all honesty I was surprised to see that Skeete signed the agreement ahead of the 12/27 activation date. But to put in better perspective... this process is now farther along than they have ever been before.

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12-23-2012, 12:26 AM
  #134
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On the backs of the Glendale taxpayers, police, firemen, janitors, librarians and all other civil servants who have or will be losing their jobs as a result of a bunch of poor decisions made by a group of childish Council members?
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLegend View Post
I'm not being delusional Mesa.... I called him out for making a claim.

He threw out a number..... just like you are above.... just like several people have over the past 3+ years have done, without sourcing it.

And here you are making a claim of $40million in losses based upon another team's losses, and it has to be true because well..... you feel it just has to be!!!!

Right........
To the contrary TL, I would be happy to walk you through a few pro forma scenarios that would easily show the loss estimates closer to my $40MM number than your $15MM estimate. The math is pretty straight forward and begins with ATP and ends with player cap numbers!

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12-23-2012, 12:31 AM
  #135
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Originally Posted by MNNumbers View Post
Hawker,

You make it sound as if CoG has signed, but Jamison hasn't yet. Is that true? Can anyone answer that?
It was posted earlier in the thread.

Councilwoman Joyce Clark put out on her twitter account she had been informed Skeete had signed the AMF for Glendale and the docs were to be forwarded on to Jamison for his signatures.

John Shannon had tweeted Jamison had signed it but was corrected about it.

Why it's being done now rather than until the 12/27 date is up to anyone's speculation....

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12-23-2012, 12:31 AM
  #136
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I forgot to mention that people like you seem to think the city has a printing press and that somehow these dollars must just appear out of nowhere to fund the many expenses accruing to the COG! There is a finite supply of dollars in the COG coffers, to think that the city can continue to pay both its civil servants and GJ out of the same dry purse is simply delusional. Like my last post, i ask you to show me where the city can come up with such funds in the face of a down economy and run away city expenditures?

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12-23-2012, 12:33 AM
  #137
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Originally Posted by mesamonster View Post
To the contrary TL, I would be happy to walk you through a few pro forma scenarios that would easily show the loss estimates closer to my $40MM number than your $15MM estimate. The math is pretty straight forward and begins with ATP and ends with player cap numbers!
That's still speculation Mesa and you know it.

When you can pull up actual hard numbers from the actual source then you'll have something.

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12-23-2012, 12:37 AM
  #138
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Originally Posted by TheLegend View Post
They (GWI) didn't have anything at any other time either to act with. Other than Glendale dragging their feet making documentation available.




My sources are coming from people who are connected to people within Jamison's group. The kind that don't frequent message boards like this one. Weak....?? Certainly. But no more weak than most of the "sources" I see other posters claiming here.




In all honesty I was surprised to see that Skeete signed the agreement ahead of the 12/27 activation date. But to put in better perspective... this process is now farther along than they have ever been before.
A source close to GJ? Oh please don`t insult us all with such a nebulous term! From a man like GJ who wouldn`t tell us his shirt size and here you are with all of this SUPPOSED insider info, please spare me the details until GJ shows us he can afford a happy meal!

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12-23-2012, 12:38 AM
  #139
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I'm not being delusional Mesa....
Dude you are completely delusional, naive, etc...if you think anyone who has already made their mind up on this matter is going to let facts, truth, etc tell them differently.


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12-23-2012, 12:40 AM
  #140
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Originally Posted by mesamonster View Post
I forgot to mention that people like you seem to think the city has a printing press and that somehow these dollars must just appear out of nowhere to fund the many expenses accruing to the COG! There is a finite supply of dollars in the COG coffers, to think that the city can continue to pay both its civil servants and GJ out of the same dry purse is simply delusional. Like my last post, i ask you to show me where the city can come up with such funds in the face of a down economy and run away city expenditures?
LOL.... You haven't the foggiest clue as to what I think.

We were talking about claims and such..... something you can't win on at the moment and now you're deflecting off to some other tangent not even related to it.

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12-23-2012, 12:42 AM
  #141
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12-23-2012, 12:48 AM
  #142
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Originally Posted by mesamonster View Post
A source close to GJ? Oh please don`t insult us all with such a nebulous term! From a man like GJ who wouldn`t tell us his shirt size and here you are with all of this SUPPOSED insider info, please spare me the details until GJ shows us he can afford a happy meal!
Who's insulting who Mesa??

All I see is you can't (or refuse to) debate my original point about claims and such... but what I do see is carpet bombing the board with a load of unrelated rhetoric and think that's going to make you win.

But please by all means.... knock yerself out.


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12-23-2012, 12:49 AM
  #143
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Buttered??????

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12-23-2012, 12:53 AM
  #144
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That's still speculation Mesa and you know it.

When you can pull up actual hard numbers from the actual source then you'll have something.
Happy to: lets start with an 11,000 avg, attendance at an ATP of $35.00, Eight PO games ($1mm per game in revenue). Salaries are $52MM, admin and coaches are $10MM, lease is $6MM, cost of capital (BOG loan at 6% on $170MM) is $10.2MM! Travel and team operating expenses are $5-7MM. Advertising and promotional expense $3MM. THe team receive $14MM in revenue sharing and $3M in media dollars. $2mm in local advertising revenues.

There are a few other expenses including the minor league team expense, scouting, the stick budget alone is $350,000 etc. etc.

Roughly add it all up and the revenues come to $42.8MM. expenses come to: $87.2MM! We can quibble on details here or there, but for you to say the losses are $15-20MM is simply wrong!

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12-23-2012, 12:58 AM
  #145
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LOL.... You haven't the foggiest clue as to what I think.

We were talking about claims and such..... something you can't win on at the moment and now you're deflecting off to some other tangent not even related to it.
Of course I do! You believe GJ has the money and the investors, I don`t! You think they lost $15-20MM last year, I know it is substantially more! Somehow you think the COG spending money they do not have on a carpetbagger like GJ is good, I don`t! Sorry to differ with you!

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12-23-2012, 01:42 AM
  #146
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Happy to: lets start with an 11,000 avg, attendance at an ATP of $35.00, Eight PO games ($1mm per game in revenue). Salaries are $52MM, admin and coaches are $10MM, lease is $6MM, cost of capital (BOG loan at 6% on $170MM) is $10.2MM! Travel and team operating expenses are $5-7MM. Advertising and promotional expense $3MM. THe team receive $14MM in revenue sharing and $3M in media dollars. $2mm in local advertising revenues.

There are a few other expenses including the minor league team expense, scouting, the stick budget alone is $350,000 etc. etc.

Roughly add it all up and the revenues come to $42.8MM. expenses come to: $87.2MM! We can quibble on details here or there, but for you to say the losses are $15-20MM is simply wrong!
42.8 MM + 25 from COG = 67.8

67.8-87.2 = 20.6

The math is pretty close to adding up.

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12-23-2012, 01:46 AM
  #147
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That's still speculation Mesa and you know it.

When you can pull up actual hard numbers from the actual source then you'll have something.
The team has lost at least 25 mil each of the last 2 years in Actual cash losses. How do I know this for sure, 100%? The NHL was paid that by the COG and their agreement was to pay the NHL for actual cash losses.

The NHL also published they lost more than that the first year.

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12-23-2012, 03:02 AM
  #148
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Originally Posted by mesamonster View Post
Happy to: lets start with an 11,000 avg, attendance at an ATP of $35.00, Eight PO games ($1mm per game in revenue). Salaries are $52MM, admin and coaches are $10MM, lease is $6MM, cost of capital (BOG loan at 6% on $170MM) is $10.2MM! Travel and team operating expenses are $5-7MM. Advertising and promotional expense $3MM. THe team receive $14MM in revenue sharing and $3M in media dollars. $2mm in local advertising revenues.

There are a few other expenses including the minor league team expense, scouting, the stick budget alone is $350,000 etc. etc.

Roughly add it all up and the revenues come to $42.8MM. expenses come to: $87.2MM! We can quibble on details here or there, but for you to say the losses are $15-20MM is simply wrong!
Why not start with some real numbers, even if from a few seasons ago?

From documents disclosed in bankruptcy case:





More recent figures on gate receipts:

Quote:
The report also highlights the continued struggles for the league-owned Phoenix Coyotes, who garnered $420,000 per game in 2010-11, down from $450,000 in 2007-08. The Coyotes are losing more than $30 million a season and several league executives and NHL Players' Association officials have said it's only a matter of time before the club is relocated.
That's per leaked NHL data:

http://www.thestar.com/sports/hockey...rticle/1109400

And some previous leaked data:

2006 - 2008 leaked NHL per game gate receipt info:

http://www3.thestar.com/stati/PDF/08...ts_revenue.pdf

Also, recent TV viewership numbers for Coyotes in Arizona:

Phoenix Coyotes FS Arizona 6,000

http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/J.../NHL-RSNs.aspx

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12-23-2012, 03:04 AM
  #149
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Originally Posted by mesamonster View Post
Happy to: lets start with an 11,000 avg, attendance at an ATP of $35.00, Eight PO games ($1mm per game in revenue). Salaries are $52MM, admin and coaches are $10MM, lease is $6MM, cost of capital (BOG loan at 6% on $170MM) is $10.2MM! Travel and team operating expenses are $5-7MM. Advertising and promotional expense $3MM. THe team receive $14MM in revenue sharing and $3M in media dollars. $2mm in local advertising revenues.

There are a few other expenses including the minor league team expense, scouting, the stick budget alone is $350,000 etc. etc.

Roughly add it all up and the revenues come to $42.8MM. expenses come to: $87.2MM! We can quibble on details here or there, but for you to say the losses are $15-20MM is simply wrong!
You are correct that it takes about $90 million to break even.

However, the Coyote should expect to receive the following non-local or subsidy money:

$12.5 million (estimate) in 1/30th split of NHL central revenue for things like national TV contracts in USA and Canada, league sponsorships, etc.

$15 million in revenue sharing under easier rules in a new CBA (rough estimate)

$15 million per year in tax payer subsidy as per arena 'management' agreement

Total: $42.5 million in non-hockey or no-local revenue

So local hockey revenues need to be about $50 million to break even.


Last edited by MAROONSRoad: 12-23-2012 at 03:11 AM.
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12-23-2012, 06:03 AM
  #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MAROONSRoad View Post
You are correct that it takes about $90 million to break even.

However, the Coyote should expect to receive the following non-local or subsidy money:

$12.5 million (estimate) in 1/30th split of NHL central revenue for things like national TV contracts in USA and Canada, league sponsorships, etc.

$15 million in revenue sharing under easier rules in a new CBA (rough estimate)

$15 million per year in tax payer subsidy as per arena 'management' agreement

Total: $42.5 million in non-hockey or no-local revenue

So local hockey revenues need to be about $50 million to break even.
Is everyone just going to make up their own numbers or what?

Takes more than $90 million to break even. If Forbes is to believed it takes around $100-$120 million to run a team. For Phoenix that number is $103.6 million(83 million revenue + 20.6 operaating loss). Not only that but the team only made $22 million at the gate which mean minus the $25 million they got from the city, the Coyotes had recieved at least $36 million in aid from the NHL as it is.

Which means for the Coyotes to get back to a $20.6 million loss they will need an extra $10 million to make up for the loss in city aid. Of course they could always dump salary and become a horrendous team to save that money.

http://www.forbes.com/teams/phoenix-coyotes/

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