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Phoenix LXVII; Route66 - Aftermath

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Old
12-23-2012, 08:29 AM
  #151
ajmidd12
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Originally Posted by TheLegend View Post
Who's insulting who Mesa??

All I see is you can't (or refuse to) debate my original point about claims and such... but what I do see is carpet bombing the board with a load of unrelated rhetoric and think that's going to make you win.

But please by all means.... knock yerself out.

TL, yes I'm calling you out. Pray tell us a few names of confirmed investors. Hell tell us what Gramps eats for breakfast, we don't want to know YOUR source but we do need something to solidify your claims.

Otherwise it's nothing short of the same **** we're all guilty of slinging these past few years.

Cheers

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12-23-2012, 08:30 AM
  #152
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Originally Posted by wildthing202 View Post
Is everyone just going to make up their own numbers or what?
Just like Forbes does?

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12-23-2012, 08:45 AM
  #153
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Originally Posted by TheLegend View Post
They (GWI) didn't have anything at any other time either to act with. Other than Glendale dragging their feet making documentation available.




My sources are coming from people who are connected to people within Jamison's group. The kind that don't frequent message boards like this one. Weak....?? Certainly. But no more weak than most of the "sources" I see other posters claiming here.




In all honesty I was surprised to see that Skeete signed the agreement ahead of the 12/27 activation date. But to put in better perspective... this process is now farther along than they have ever been before.
So who are the owners?

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12-23-2012, 08:45 AM
  #154
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Originally Posted by Thomas L View Post
Just like Forbes does?
Ok if you got a better source then post it then if not then Forbes is it then.

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Old
12-23-2012, 08:59 AM
  #155
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Originally Posted by wildthing202 View Post
Ok if you got a better source then post it then if not then Forbes is it then.
I didn't call anybody out for citing made up numbers then turnaround and cite made up numbers in the same post.

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12-23-2012, 09:49 AM
  #156
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12-23-2012, 09:57 AM
  #157
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Originally Posted by wildthing202 View Post
Is everyone just going to make up their own numbers or what?

Takes more than $90 million to break even
. If Forbes is to believed it takes around $100-$120 million to run a team. For Phoenix that number is $103.6 million(83 million revenue + 20.6 operaating loss). Not only that but the team only made $22 million at the gate which mean minus the $25 million they got from the city, the Coyotes had recieved at least $36 million in aid from the NHL as it is.

Which means for the Coyotes to get back to a $20.6 million loss they will need an extra $10 million to make up for the loss in city aid. Of course they could always dump salary and become a horrendous team to save that money.

http://www.forbes.com/teams/phoenix-coyotes/
Yeah, I just made the $90 million number up, right? It's based on a number of sources, including an $80 million number from about 3 years ago mentioned by an NHL GM as well as court documents and some math. As the salary cap has increased over 10% since that time $90 million appears to be the minimum for a mid-cap team.

Forbes # aren't particularly reliable in my opinion, but give ball park estimates.

If the number is now closer to $100 million, that would mean local revenues needed in the $55 to $60 million range to break even.

The new CBA, however, should trim back salaries about 12% and increase revenue sharing dollars and may eliminate performance targets for teams to qualify year-on-year.

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12-23-2012, 10:06 AM
  #158
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Interesting a certain lawyer that used to post here sent me a PM back when the bankruptcy numbers came out, trumpeting the fact that the 'yotes brought in $4.4 million in local TV money per year as per disclosed 2009 income statement (linked above). However, if you look at the statement you will notice that the 'yotes paid $2.1 million in broadcast expenses, meaning most likely that they were paying the production costs. In 2009 the yotes netted $2.3 million in local TV; not a bad number when you have only a few thousand people watching games in Arizona, but totally insignificant in terms of running an NHL team.

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12-23-2012, 10:12 AM
  #159
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Originally Posted by wildthing202 View Post
Ok if you got a better source then post it then if not then Forbes is it then.
I posted the actual, real Coyotes numbers from 2009 - or at least the numbers per their income statement. It doesn't get much better than that does it? Yes they are a few years old but still.

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12-23-2012, 10:12 AM
  #160
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Originally Posted by MAROONSRoad View Post
Interesting a certain lawyer that used to post here sent me a PM back when the bankruptcy numbers came out, trumpeting the fact that the 'yotes brought in $4.4 million in local TV money per year as per disclosed 2009 income statement (linked above). However, if you look at the statement you will notice that the 'yotes paid $2.1 million in broadcast expenses, meaning most likely that they were paying the production costs. In 2009 the yotes netted $2.3 million in local TV, not a bad number when you have only a few thousand people watching games in Arizona.
Wow 2.3 million for the year, Rogers paid the Leafs 700,000 per game.

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12-23-2012, 02:18 PM
  #161
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An executive from the San Jose Sharks was asked a few years back, and they specifically said at that time that it takes $70M revenue and up for a team just to think about breaking even. That was like 3 years ago. And it would be safe to assume costs have gone up in the last 3 years.

This past season a team in the NHL published their numbers and they took in $105M in revenue and made a $13M profit. So expenses were about $92M. And this was a team that is a mid-cap team, sells out every game, and has their own TV channel.

Sorry, but anyone who even thinks the Coyotes are even close to pulling in $90M a year is hopelessly dilusional. The Coyotes are losing piles and piles of money. The exact amount ( IMO in the $30M-$40M range ) is not published and unknown for the same reason the Coyotes never publish season ticket numbers.... because the franchise is an embarassment.


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12-23-2012, 02:36 PM
  #162
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Originally Posted by cbcwpg View Post
An executive from the San Jose Sharks was asked a few years back, and they specifically said at that time that it takes $70M revenue and up for a team just to think about breaking even. That was like 3 years ago. And it would be safe to assume costs have gone up in the last 3 years.

This past season a team in the NHL published their numbers and they took in $105M in revenue and made a $13M profit. So expenses were about $92M. And this was a team that is a mid-cap team, sells out every game, and has their own TV channel.

Sorry, but anyone who even thinks the Coyotes are even close to pulling in $90M a year is hopelessly dilusional. The Coyotes are losing piles and piles of money. The exact amount ( IMO in the $30M-$40M range ) is not published and unknown for the same reason the Coyotes never publish season ticket numbers.... because the franchise is an embarassment.
They do get 15 million in rev sharing so that probably brings the losses to the 25 million range. How will they ever turn it around? How will the owners ever get their money back? Lets just pretend in 10 years they did turn it around and started to make a profit, wait a minute they still can't make much because now being a profitable team they have to pay into rev sharing. So how do they ever get their decades of losses back?

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12-23-2012, 02:50 PM
  #163
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Originally Posted by cbcwpg View Post
This past season a team in the NHL published their numbers and they took in $105M in revenue and made a $13M profit. So expenses were about $92M. And this was a team that is a mid-cap team, sells out every game, and has their own TV channel.
Interesting. Did that include the cost of jet fuel that according to Gary Bettman is up by 175% (which it was, for about a week back in 08/09 then fell back down to earth again & then in the same sentence...) along with the ever increasing rates being charged by Massage Therapists?... I'd really like to know, as would Im sure Donald Fehr & the players, and not just for the Coyotes but for each & every team, because anecdotally, Ive heard tell that Yotes losses of the past 2yrs are nowhere near whats being suggested here.

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12-23-2012, 03:13 PM
  #164
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Interesting. Did that include the cost of jet fuel that according to Gary Bettman is up by 175% (which it was, for about a week back in 08/09 then fell back down to earth again & then in the same sentence...) along with the ever increasing rates being charged by Massage Therapists?... I'd really like to know, as would Im sure Donald Fehr & the players, and not just for the Coyotes but for each & every team, because anecdotally, Ive heard tell that Yotes losses of the past 2yrs are nowhere near whats being suggested here.
The numbers were published in the paper here in Winnipeg. Mark Chipman was asked about the first year finances more in regards to if the Jets have received any revenue sharing. The answer was, no the Jets had not received any money from revenue sharing. But in an article Chipman decided to make mention of their revenues and profit. Why he disclosed those numbers I have no idea, but he decided to do so.

Can't find the local link anymore, but similar numbers were published by Forbes, so take it with a grain of salt I guess. Regardless, it would be very interesting to see the exact costs of running a franchise. I would also like to see the difference between western teams and eastern teams to see how much of an advantage the eastern teams have when it comes to expenses. The main point is, if a team like Winnipeg has a very successful season like they just did, and still doesn't make all that much money, what does it say for the health of the league in general?


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12-23-2012, 09:31 PM
  #165
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Originally Posted by ajmidd12 View Post
TL, yes I'm calling you out. Pray tell us a few names of confirmed investors. Hell tell us what Gramps eats for breakfast, we don't want to know YOUR source but we do need something to solidify your claims.

Otherwise it's nothing short of the same **** we're all guilty of slinging these past few years.

Cheers
There's one problem with your call out.

I've never claimed I know who the investors are.

But you're last sentence hit my point perfectly......

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12-24-2012, 01:15 AM
  #166
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Interesting link

http://www.wrhambrecht.com/pdf/Sport...eport_2012.pdf

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12-24-2012, 07:59 AM
  #167
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http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepu...e-million.html

The council spent about six hours Tuesday discussing the interim city manager's initial round of proposed cuts, some bemoaning how the recently approved Phoenix Coyotes deal will affect city figures.

"We have a budget that is structurally imbalanced to begin with, and we're adding in a $320 million obligation," Mayor Elaine Scruggs said of the hockey deal the council approved last month.

Councilwoman Joyce Clark said the Coyotes were irrelevant to the cuts, which are to prepare the city for the expiration of a sales-tax increase.


Clarkonomics.

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12-24-2012, 09:04 AM
  #168
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So I take it that there has been no confirmation that Jamison has actually signed a lease beyond tweets from Shannon and Clark?

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12-24-2012, 09:14 AM
  #169
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Clarkonomics? The same illness that infects our National politicians in attempting to deal with unbalanced revenues and expenses. In our nations capital they have resorted to kicking the can continuously down the road while funding what they can with quantitative easing policies.

Seems the same game is being attempted by the COG, unfortunately they do not have the printing presses at their disposal. The figures that Mr. Skeete is continually confronted with reveal a rapidly deteriorating financial position facing Glendale. Rather than fix it by introducing prudent reductions in expense items they want to double down spending! Sound smart? The new mayor and Council will need to find a way to tell GJ that they are no longer in the sports welfare business and if is truly interested in purchasing the team he will need to find a new banking relationship. His civic banker JOyce Clark has been fired and the bank (COG) has denied his loan.

Say TL, I am still waiting for your team economic projections! I gave you mine, now lets see yours?

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12-24-2012, 09:17 AM
  #170
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Originally Posted by Evil Doctor View Post
So I take it that there has been no confirmation that Jamison has actually signed a lease beyond tweets from Shannon and Clark?
Correct. No confirmation.

I would imagine Jamison is having the following conversion with all his speculators....

" So where is the money you said you were going to invest? ... you promised... Guys, no fooling...come on... The NHL wants to sell now..Don't worry, I'm sure we will break even....no joke..."

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12-24-2012, 09:22 AM
  #171
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Originally Posted by mesamonster View Post
Say TL, I am still waiting for your team economic projections! I gave you mine, now lets see yours?
Well, this is mine, but it's JMO....
Attached Images
File Type: jpg images.jpg‎ (19.8 KB, 20 views)

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12-24-2012, 09:26 AM
  #172
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Correct. No confirmation.

I would imagine Jamison is having the following conversion with all his speculators....

" So where is the money you said you were going to invest? ... you promised... Guys, no fooling...come on... The NHL wants to sell now..no joke..."
Those were conversations he had with himself! Perhaps GJ has many personalities buried within his personal confines. Each day he visits with another of his alter egos coaxing commitments from each. The other night he awoke in a deep sweat, the ghosts of Coyotes past came by to alert him to the fact that his past behavior needs to be recodified. Time to own up to his charade, hoist the little town on his shoulders and tell the taxpayers and fans that the next 20 years are on him. Free tickets, and to the taxpayers of Glendale: services will be restored and each household will receive a bundle of presents beneath the tree tonight! Merry Christmas to all and to all a good night!

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12-24-2012, 09:39 AM
  #173
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Originally Posted by mesamonster View Post
Those were conversations he had with himself! Perhaps GJ has many personalities buried within his personal confines. Each day he visits with another of his alter egos coaxing commitments from each. The other night he awoke in a deep sweat, the ghosts of Coyotes past came by to alert him to the fact that his past behavior needs to be recodified. Time to own up to his charade, hoist the little town on his shoulders and tell the taxpayers and fans that the next 20 years are on him. Free tickets, and to the taxpayers of Glendale: services will be restored and each household will receive a bundle of presents beneath the tree tonight! Merry Christmas to all and to all a good night!
And a suggie under the tree for all. Kids, don't forget the cupcakes for Santa tonight, this may be the only place he'll get them. It's a long route

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12-24-2012, 10:09 AM
  #174
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There's one problem with your call out.

I've never claimed I know who the investors are.
You claimed you knew people close to the investors... :sigh:

In terms of credibility, when it comes to speculations, people generally trust those who have build up a track record of reliability and consistency.

Overplaying your hand doesn't work.

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12-24-2012, 10:15 AM
  #175
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There's one problem with your call out.

I've never claimed I know who the investors are.

But you're last sentence hit my point perfectly......
No, but you did claim you had inside information. Divulge some legitimate info for use... please! I'm bored and can use some accurate info

And you're right the **** slinging has been coming from all sides. Usually starts with someone posting an actual fact about the losses then a diehard fan returns with something along the lines of "they are turning things around", then comes the "15 years", and so on and so on.

Anyways have a Merry Christmas TL


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