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2012 CBA/Lockout talk Part VII..Will a deal get done..

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Old
12-28-2012, 08:33 AM
  #326
BMC
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Originally Posted by WhamBamCam8 View Post
You have to look at it as any employee that constantly gets stuff taken away.... It's the money, not the principle...and players, laymen, millionaries, whomever, are just sick of it. The corporate world sucks, unless you are one of the 1%.

That being said, the players need to see that this is a worldwide thing (employees getting screwed over) and grin and bear most of it... Get the best you can, because their alternative is a lot worse then ours.... they won't make salaries like this in any other industry, thats for sure.
Fixed it for you.

As Gee Wally has said over and over again it is all about the money. And when someone says "it's the principle, not the money" that is when you really know it is about the money.

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12-28-2012, 08:34 AM
  #327
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Pierre LeBrun ‏@Real_ESPNLeBrun
New offer sees each team afforded one compliance buyout prior to 2013-14 season. Doesn't count vs. cap but it does vs. players' share

Pierre LeBrun ‏@Real_ESPNLeBrun
Also the Make Whole $$$$ stays at $300 million

Pierre LeBrun ‏@Real_ESPNLeBrun
NHL offer calls for term limit on player contracts to be six years (7 if you're re-signing your own guys).


If this doesn't get done now it never will

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12-28-2012, 08:38 AM
  #328
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crossfire View Post
Pierre LeBrun ‏@Real_ESPNLeBrun
New offer sees each team afforded one compliance buyout prior to 2013-14 season. Doesn't count vs. cap but it does vs. players' share

Pierre LeBrun ‏@Real_ESPNLeBrun
Also the Make Whole $$$$ stays at $300 million

Pierre LeBrun ‏@Real_ESPNLeBrun
NHL offer calls for term limit on player contracts to be six years (7 if you're re-signing your own guys).


If this doesn't get done now it never will
This is a solid offer. If they turn this one down I'll be sick.

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12-28-2012, 08:40 AM
  #329
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New light in the tunnel.

Fehr's cards have long since turned to ****, hopefully he won't go all in again, especially when the owners continue to give him so many chances...

It really is now or never. If the PA declines or counters and the NHL declines, we're pretty much done here. I can vividly picture Fehr saying that they'll give more in a couple weeks, though. That won't fly.

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12-28-2012, 08:48 AM
  #330
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Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
Two points:

1. I was specifically referring to the "the players believe they are above the game" comment, which is nonsense.

2. As for leaving home to play, I was referring to players such as Chara and Krejci, who went to Canada as teenagers. I lived in Europe for a time and I know how hard it is, and I was in my 20s.

Carry on.
One thing people seem to forget, or more likely just choose to ignore, is the fact that players have just as much power to end the lockout as the owners do. They could just as easily agree to play under the owners proposed CBA which would net each and everyone of them quite literally millions of dollars and would see them have one of the best benefits package in the country... this in a league that brings in less revenue then all the other professional sports leagues.

At some point claiming to be fighting for "rights" and trying to appeal to the average persons sympathies becomes patronizing and insulting. You got the response because you seem to be championing that cause attempting to paint the "bad guy" in all this as Gary Bettman. The PA would have better luck imo if the PA didn't treat hockey fans like they were idiots. Don't have the guy who called a strike just before a World Series tell me that players would have played another year under the old CBA while they negotiated a new one, especially after he just refused to negotiate during an NHL season because players couldn't be a part of the process. I'm not stupid. Don't tell me as a player you're going overseas just to break even because of insurance costs when you're getting a couple hundred thousand and you're new employer is paying for you to live. Don't whine about contracting rights then ditch out on your new contract you just signed overseas. Are there players out there that likely just want to get back to the game? Sure there are but right now they are all united under the PA's banner and therefore are represented by Fehr and his message so for the purposes of a CBA conversation, they are very much a single entity. In that conversation, this is about the money no matter how much spin the PA puts on it. The filthy rich versus the filthy rich that right now sees only one side consistently making money on the NHL.

The fact that players come from overseas to play in the NHL is just as much because of the paycheck as it is a love of the game, I'm not naive enough to think otherwise. Sorry, but on that point I'm not very sympathetic, there is a much larger group of young men and woman who sign up to get placed where ever their employer deems suitable. They do so for peanuts with far greater fear of more significant injury risks then post concussion symptoms and with the knowledge they very well may be getting shot at when they get to work. That doesn't mean I don't respect NHL'ers for their dedication, work ethic, and skill. I do, but my heart doesn't bleed for the guy who decides to leave his country to play a game and make millions of dollars doing so in North America. Many many people sacrifice more for their jobs for far far (I can't emphasize that far enough) less imo. That's life.


Last edited by Kaoz: 12-28-2012 at 09:01 AM.
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12-28-2012, 08:50 AM
  #331
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crossfire View Post
Pierre LeBrun ‏@Real_ESPNLeBrun
New offer sees each team afforded one compliance buyout prior to 2013-14 season. Doesn't count vs. cap but it does vs. players' share

Pierre LeBrun ‏@Real_ESPNLeBrun
Also the Make Whole $$$$ stays at $300 million

Pierre LeBrun ‏@Real_ESPNLeBrun
NHL offer calls for term limit on player contracts to be six years (7 if you're re-signing your own guys).


If this doesn't get done now it never will
I was starting to think (and they still may) take this into late next week, but psychologically it would be wise to have this done by December 31st

this sounds like the owners are serious unless there are trap doors and booby traps I dont know about

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12-28-2012, 08:50 AM
  #332
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Originally Posted by JMiller View Post
The "expense" of players to the league did not go up in proportion to league revenues. The owners couldn't figure out how to manage their own 43%, even as their real dollars grew at the same rate the players did.
So by your logic since the Toronto Maple Leafs revenues are 10-20x as high as that of Nashville or St Louis they should be able to pay their players that much more than those teams? Generally speaking what the owners want is what we all should want. We shouldn't want Phoenix or Nashville to be profitable in the manner the Pittsburgh Pirates are in baseball because they don't spend any of their revenue sharing and keep their payroll low intentionally so they get the revenue sharing and turn a profit. Nor do we want the Leafs to have a payroll 5x as high as most other teams and buy championships.

Now I wish Jacobs had used his position to compromise and find middle ground and without knowing the details he should be willing to pass the hat around to some extent and filter some money down to smaller teams. But the fact is he only gets 12k a year from me and has to give me the more expensive seats in the Loge its impossible for him to have more than 2000 customers like myself the arena doesn't hold 50000. (And of course since I am not a millionaire and can't drop that entirely out of pocket nor can I morph myself into 4 more people to fill all my seats I am a parasite of course despite going to 30 games a year, drinking in the Garden at them, doing a road game a year etc etc.)

Its only about 20-25 mil a year JJ gets from ST holders. It takes maybe 10 customers like myself 's annual bill for JJ to pay Bergeron one weeks pay ...or takes about 80-100 balcony season tickets to pay Bergy a weeks salary. And he has to pay him that 50 times in a year (there is 4-5000 balcony season tickets that barely covers one star players annual pay.) And even the 4th liners make in the millions and close to what Bergeron does so there's 20 guys in that ballpark. And he has to pick up the meals, fuel, training staff, coaches, Garden employees, etc. Whatever profit he makes after that he does deserve "most" of.

People like me DO NOT exist in Phoenix but those owners have to pay 80% of what JJ does. There's probably 100,000 people in Ontario who would pay what I do for NHL tickets (just look at Winnipeg.) Should my seats cost 40k since someone in Toronto would pay that and therefore because of the players deserve it by your logic? Maybe I deserve to pay more money so it can be revenue shared with Phoenix and they can give away some free tickets to people who hate hockey to fill their arena with my money?

That rant isn't precise or accurate I am just making a point for what the owners face and how league revenue is somewhat irrelevant to the running of the team and don't want to argue numbers or specifics. These guys ALL get a fortune. There is no sweetheart TV deal which guarantees profitability like the NFL Americans don't give a **** about hockey. Furthermore NHL owners aren't missing checks like KHL owners.


The players are greedy and need to take this deal its the best they will get and they are despicable and basically spitting on their fans for dragging it out so long. Most of these punks deserve to live under a bridge for putting the fans through this. And I can't post what Fehr deserves because I'd get a star next to my username.

Sorry again for the long rant/post.

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Old
12-28-2012, 08:56 AM
  #333
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Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
They have unique talent that people pay a premium for, and they're the best in the world at what they do. Meryl Streep and Tom Cruise make obscene amounts of money, and so does Lady Gaga and whomever is king of the rap world these days. The lords of Wall Street do nothing but exchange numbers all day and rake in billions. And you and I live like royalty compared to the average slum-dweller in India.

Wouldn't it be wonderful if we had an economic system in which everyone was compensated equally? From each according to his ability, to each according to his need? Well, that's been tried, and unfortunately it hasn't worked out so well.
I'm clearly not doing a good job of making my point.

My point is NOT that I get upset when someone makes obscene amounts of money.

My point is I get upset when someone makes obscene amounts of money and complains about it, or claims they're "getting screwed.".

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Old
12-28-2012, 09:00 AM
  #334
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Let's hope that Fehr does not get greedy.

Settle it now.

As an added bonus the new CBA should include quick retirement packages for Bettman and Fehr with a lifetime ban from pro sports negotiations.

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12-28-2012, 09:04 AM
  #335
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Let's hope that Fehr does not get greedy.

Settle it now.

As an added bonus the new CBA should include quick retirement packages for Bettman and Fehr with a lifetime ban from pro sports negotiations.
Problem is, I think that is exactly what will happen. The owners have bent on a couple of items that they previously said were non-negotiable.

Based on past practice, Fehr's next step is to tell the players, "See, I told you they would give in more" and push for even further concessions.

I wish the players would put the new deal to a vote, because I'd be willing to bet a majority would take it.

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Old
12-28-2012, 09:09 AM
  #336
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heard my pet peeve again last night... and no matter how many times i hear it, it always bothers me. So going to vent again here... sorry.

for everyone that says the owners want protection against themselves... YES THEY DO

remember there is 30 owners. each one has a fan base they need to keep happy. the fans will get unhappy if the competition is offering crazy contracts to the most attractive players and getting them all. any owner that doesnt step up to get a fair share of attractive players to their own team... will face a fan revolt.

as long as there is even a small handful of owners BEING STUPID then all the other owners are at risk of also being FORCED TO BE STUPID TOO!

the owners arent saying they want restrictions against offering atttractive players millions of dollars per year to play hockey. The players will still gt STUPID AMOUNTS of money. The owners just want to stop these situations where a player like scott gomez or wade redden can leverage some owner into paying such god aweful stupid amounts of money for contracts that will never end. Thankfully Gomez/Redden dont have 10 year deals... but we all know thats just by the grace of god.

Diepitro... Yashin... did... and more and more and more deals are being signed that look likely to blow up in owners faces. Vancouver fans used to call the talk shows crying how Louongo would leave if there was no chance to win... then he got his deal... now they call up crying about how the team is 'stuck' with him. There is a chance Savard might get declared healthy one day... not a likely chance, but a chance nevertheless... but he might be a shadow of his former self as a player.

its not likely... but its possible. Savard isnt to blame for it if he does come back... but he could still be a problem to us. Diepitro didnt ask to get injured but he is still a problem.

the owners have a very legitimate issue with not wanting to end up committed to players for 10-15 years with no opt out options... and yet if their stupidest competor is allowed to make this type of offer then they all are FORCED to keep up with the Jones or fall behind in the race to please their fan base.

so anyhow... YES the owners want protection against themselves AND THE EXPECTATIONS OF THEIR OWN FAN BASES and YES its RIGHTFULLY NECESSARY because ultimately it is us fans that would suffer if some scott gomez or wade redden type ever got signed by our own team to one of these crazy 10-15 year deals.

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Old
12-28-2012, 09:18 AM
  #337
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crossfire View Post
Pierre LeBrun ‏@Real_ESPNLeBrun
New offer sees each team afforded one compliance buyout prior to 2013-14 season. Doesn't count vs. cap but it does vs. players' share

Pierre LeBrun ‏@Real_ESPNLeBrun
Also the Make Whole $$$$ stays at $300 million

Pierre LeBrun ‏@Real_ESPNLeBrun
NHL offer calls for term limit on player contracts to be six years (7 if you're re-signing your own guys).


If this doesn't get done now it never will
The NHL gave on variance as well apparently:
http://nesn.com/2012/12/report-nhl-m...on-key-issues/

Leaving the 300 million on the table is large also. The question is will the PA move towards the NHL now on transition and linked shares or will they try and move the NHL more on term limits, variance, and transition. Based on what's happened to date no doubt the latter all the while spinning it to say they're the only ones who've given anything up. Sorry, cynical at this point and as long as there is time left my assumption is Fehr and Co. will attempt to milk it.


Last edited by Kaoz: 12-28-2012 at 09:23 AM.
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Old
12-28-2012, 09:19 AM
  #338
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The offer is that last minute push that was expected before January 2nd.

What was unexpected is the detail of this last offer. In fact, it could be called a CBA - sign it and play, so I don't suspect that with all that detail, that we will hear from the NHLPA in short order like we have from the league previously.

This will take more than 10 minutes to decipher for the Union.

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12-28-2012, 09:25 AM
  #339
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Originally Posted by OrrOverGretzky View Post
The offer is that last minute push that was expected before January 2nd.

What was unexpected is the detail of this last offer. In fact, it could be called a CBA - sign it and play, so I don't suspect that with all that detail, that we will hear from the NHLPA in short order like we have from the league previously.

This will take more than 10 minutes to decipher for the Union.
I hope they put it to a vote ASAP. If this was done by the 30th how quickly could we play games? Also when would the new schedule be released?

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12-28-2012, 09:33 AM
  #340
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Perhaps one of the most important tweets of the lockout:

Bruce Garrioch @SunGarrioch
My sources say owners have privately informed Bettman cancelling the season is not an acceptable option.

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12-28-2012, 09:39 AM
  #341
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Good to see one side blink. Hopefully the league is learning that it's too expensive to keep playing hardball instead of working as a partnership. Got to think that was part of the goal when the NHLPA picked Fehr.


Last edited by JMiller: 12-28-2012 at 09:54 AM.
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Old
12-28-2012, 09:43 AM
  #342
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ap3lovr View Post
I hope they put it to a vote ASAP. If this was done by the 30th how quickly could we play games? Also when would the new schedule be released?
Reports are the league wants to start playing January 19. A new schedule will take about a week unless they use one that is already in their back pocket. Also depends on whether realignment will be discussed and how hard the league (Detroit Columbus and the Jets) push for it for this season. I'm guessing Detroit won't push that hard for it but if the Jets and Columbus do, they'll want to be the team to come East and will push for that.

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12-28-2012, 09:50 AM
  #343
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Any word on the variance?

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12-28-2012, 09:51 AM
  #344
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EverettMike View Post
Any word on the variance?
League raised it to 10% from 5%

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12-28-2012, 09:51 AM
  #345
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No defending the NHLPA if they do not accept this, or atleast work off most of it to get a deal.

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12-28-2012, 09:52 AM
  #346
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No defending the NHLPA if they do not accept this, or atleast work off most of it to get a deal.
Yep, and there's plenty there

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12-28-2012, 09:53 AM
  #347
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhamBamCam8 View Post
No defending the NHLPA if they do not accept this, or atleast work off most of it to get a deal.
You read my tweet Lou but left out the R.I.P. if they don't

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12-28-2012, 09:59 AM
  #348
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Just when I thought I was out, they pulled me back in...

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12-28-2012, 10:16 AM
  #349
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I don't really disagree with your thinking- IMO what it points to is that Pheonix is not a place where a well managed league would put a hockey franchise. Their losses, like those in columbus, florida, carolina, and the like aren't the result of player salaries but of league mismanagement. Look at the first year under the last cba (after a 24% rollback) those teams were still losing money, while the leafs were still raking it in hand over skate.

You're right, there are many more people in Ontario who would be willing to pay for tickets- a properly run league would move one of these achors to Hamilton and start looking for markets that are hungry for hockey rather than trying to sell it in a desert.
Those teams were losing far less at that time despite their poor performance and lack of interest, and what they were losing could be offset by the proposed revenue sharing system. They were also able to be competitive financially at that time, something that is no longer possible. Interest in the sport has grown in leaps and bounds in those areas since then and with good ownership and a solid team they could easily become profitable and do more for the sport then a 2nd team in Hamilton ever would. That will never happen if they can't afford to ice a competitive roster.

Hamilton, Quebec and the like are nice thoughts, and no doubt sustainable immediately but they also don't matter to a company like NBC. Having that 4th team in the sunbelt does. And those people that are now buying Hamilton jerseys were already buying Toronto jerseys. The people who are now paying for NHLci to watch the new Hamilton team were already doing so to watch the Maple Leafs. Find a way to increase the capacity of the ACC to 40,000 and you'd have roughly the same effect. You might see more short term gains, but you'd have no where near the same long term effect you'd have if you continue to increase the popularity of the sport in the southern states.

Not to mention you're also completely dependent on the Canadian economy which is somewhat undesirable when your business is based completely on American dollars. 20 years ago if you're talking about moving weak markets you're talking about moving Canadian teams which is why we lost the Jets and Nordiques in the first place.

There's a reason you only ever hear this reasoning from fans. The PA doesn't approach it even though it would be incredibly easy to do so and would no doubt bolster their claims of mismanagement leading to the owners deficits. The PA wants the sport to grow in those non traditional areas as much as the owners do because it means much much more money for the players.

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12-28-2012, 10:18 AM
  #350
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OrrOverGretzky View Post
You read my tweet Lou but left out the R.I.P. if they don't
HAHAHAHAH I did... I read it a bit ago, then came here, and forgot who said it!!!..

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