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2012 CBA/Lockout talk Part VII..Will a deal get done..

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Old
12-28-2012, 10:18 AM
  #351
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OrrOverGretzky View Post
You read my tweet Lou but left out the R.I.P. if they don't
there was a 48 game schedule in 95.... Didn't it start mid January too?

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12-28-2012, 10:23 AM
  #352
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it sure looks like there is going to be hockey- we just need to see when. Fehr knows he is running out of time but I'd be shocked if he did not come back with something that will make the owners want to hurl in the next 48 hours.

Wonder what Fehr will go for? the cap figure next year? increased make whole? contract length to 7 years?

This guy aint going down that easy- he knows its going to be settled by likely this time next week latest and he's going to take one last kick at the groin of the owners

If I'm a player I'm getting ready for a season

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12-28-2012, 10:24 AM
  #353
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhamBamCam8 View Post
there was a 48 game schedule in 95.... Didn't it start mid January too?
Jan 20th to May 3rd regular season (pushed regular season back almost a month)

St Louis used 33 players and 3 goalies to play 48 games

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12-28-2012, 10:35 AM
  #354
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it sure looks like there is going to be hockey- we just need to see when. Fehr knows he is running out of time but I'd be shocked if he did not come back with something that will make the owners want to hurl in the next 48 hours.

Wonder what Fehr will go for? the cap figure next year? increased make whole? contract length to 7 years?

This guy aint going down that easy- he knows its going to be settled by likely this time next week latest and he's going to take one last kick at the groin of the owners

If I'm a player I'm getting ready for a season
Dan, Fluto wrote a few weeks ago that after this is over, D.Fehr is handing the keys to brother Steve...have you heard that as well? I've only read that in that one article. I'd like to hope its true

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12-28-2012, 10:36 AM
  #355
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If I'm a player I'm getting ready for a season

Heard players were advised to be ready to go Jan 14.
Fwiw........we'll see I guess.

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12-28-2012, 10:48 AM
  #356
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Originally Posted by DKH View Post
Jan 20th to May 3rd regular season (pushed regular season back almost a month)

St Louis used 33 players and 3 goalies to play 48 games
Jim Carey played over 100 games that year, between the Portland Pirates, Caps regular season, and playoffs.

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12-28-2012, 10:50 AM
  #357
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Originally Posted by Highatop325 View Post
Dan, Fluto wrote a few weeks ago that after this is over, D.Fehr is handing the keys to brother Steve...have you heard that as well? I've only read that in that one article. I'd like to hope its true
I heard this as well

If there's a season (which I strongly think there will be and have this whole time) every fan that said "just cancel it already" or made any kind of negative remarks at the validity of shortened season, you are not allowed to watch NHL hockey until September 2013

A season means Chara doesn't lose a year, Seguin will be coming back off a hot goal scoring streak, and a healthy bruins team heading into April provided a lack of freak accidents

We could see another cup this summer folks...

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12-28-2012, 10:52 AM
  #358
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Highatop325 View Post
Dan, Fluto wrote a few weeks ago that after this is over, D.Fehr is handing the keys to brother Steve...have you heard that as well? I've only read that in that one article. I'd like to hope its true
I read the same thing. Makes sense and seems logical as long as the players are on board. I noticed that when things were going good Steve was involved (was this scripted this way)....Don always the grim here.

This clearly has been pretty much scripted and maybe another 'road block' coming before it ends next week.

The reason things cost $9.95 instead of $10.00 is probably why the owners want this done before mid night December 31st. Sounds so much better- and the next best thing to the Winter Classic if you are a hockey fan is knowing hockey is coming.

I went thru this in 1994-95 and it was Thrill Ride to the end. Montreal, Toronto (Kessel and Phaneuf), Buffalo (Ott & Kaleta), the Sens- this could be a wild 4 months

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12-28-2012, 11:00 AM
  #359
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Just when I thought I was out, they pulled me back in...
"...so you're saying there's a chance? YEAH!!"

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12-28-2012, 11:05 AM
  #360
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Can someone explain what the variance means?

I gather it deals with how much year 1 salary can differ from year 2 salary and so forth?

How does it work in reality.

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12-28-2012, 11:31 AM
  #361
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Let's go Bruins..........?

Not getting my hopes up though, Fehr has the ego and capability to be a complete ****** and keep on wanting more.

It looks like it's a fair deal for both sides, but knowing Fehr, he will find some excuse and everything will probably blow up. Just have to keep hope.

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12-28-2012, 11:43 AM
  #362
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not drinking the milk...just yet. We've seen this a couple times since September.

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12-28-2012, 11:44 AM
  #363
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Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
They have unique talent that people pay a premium for, and they're the best in the world at what they do. Meryl Streep and Tom Cruise make obscene amounts of money, and so does Lady Gaga and whomever is king of the rap world these days. The lords of Wall Street do nothing but exchange numbers all day and rake in billions. And you and I live like royalty compared to the average slum-dweller in India.

Wouldn't it be wonderful if we had an economic system in which everyone was compensated equally? From each according to his ability, to each according to his need? Well, that's been tried, and unfortunately it hasn't worked out so well.
ii love your point but i feel you are defeating your side of the argument arent you?

i mean tom cruise and meryl streep do get obscene amounts of money... so does lady gaga. By extension if you say that sydney crosby and jonathon towes deserve that money too then i think you are onto something.

now here comes the part where your aguement fails. in a union world of pro sports... where arbitration and guaranteed splits of revenue and a cba cap floor are part of the equation... we see 'actors' who have 1/20th the 'screen time' of mr cruise trying to get away with the 'argument' that they deserve 1/20th his salary as a result.

and obviously this doesnt work in movies... or singing.. or whatever other example you are attempting to use here.

in other entertainment fields... the entertainer that sells tickets based on their INDIVIDUAL VALUE command a compesation that is affordable due to their DRAWING POWER. I mean if tom cruise suddenly lost money for his next 2-3 movies.. he sure as hell wouldnt continue to have a GUARANTEED CONTRACT carrying forward.

Lady Gaga will one day go the way of any other singer that has their day in the sun and then becomes irrelevent too. Theres a lot of former number 1 chart toppers that are back in your local bars 2-3 years later playing for rent money.

thats where your argument falls apart... and why you are making the owners case here, when they dont want long term deals... and dont want arbitration... and dont want other 'forced' obligations that simply arent justified by performance.

we never hear owners complain paying fair dollars for performance. I mean the proof is easy for us all to see for ourselves, that if they have a tom cruise available to them... they fight like rabid dogs to give that player the moon. in reality what the owners are much more worried about, is having to pay guys 4-7 mill a year and then see that player turn into the next shawn horcorff or brian campbell or scott gomez while also being locked into it for 5-6-7-8 years or more with no escape ability... and that NEVER EVER EVER happens in the movies or the singing or whatever else you are trying to draw a parrallal here to.

like really, no one ever complains about having tom cruise headlining the billboard when you got 10 million fans willing to pay 10-20 dollars a ticket to come see him be the star. You are right though about wouldnt it be nice to pay everyone equal or whatever... not worrying about their actual value... and how it really shouldnt work and we only see it screwing up hockey the way it screws up everywhere else they try it. Youve made the wrong argument though cause you just made our point for us


Last edited by Alberta_OReilly_Fan: 12-28-2012 at 11:53 AM.
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12-28-2012, 11:57 AM
  #364
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Originally Posted by bostonphoenix View Post
Can someone explain what the variance means?

I gather it deals with how much year 1 salary can differ from year 2 salary and so forth?

How does it work in reality.
It can differ 10% of the first years total year to year. Not sure if there is a variance limit on the first to last years but if not...

If Boston offered some UFA the max 7 year contract making 7 million in the 1st year for instance, the max they can decrease that year to year to get the cap hit down is 10% of the first initial year.

Year 1 = $7,000,000
Year 2 = $6,300,000 (less 10% of 7million)
Year 3 = $5,600,000 (less 10% of 7million)
Year 4 = $4,900,000 (less 10% of 7million)
Year 5 = $4,200,000 (less 10% of 7million)
Year 6 = $3,500,000 (less 10% of 7million)
Year 7 = $2,800,000 (less 10% of 7million)

So the cap hit ends up being $5,217,031 over the 7 year contract. Still a significant drop of 47% from the first to final year in actual cash, but the cap hit remains a bit truer to the highest year.

Better example of a contract as it's the exact type of contract they are trying to prevent is how it would affect the Philly/Weber offer. If Philly offered Weber the same deal (except shortened to 7 years) and wanted to out price Nashville with 4 years at 14mill and then a drop to lower the cap hit, the most they could do would be to arrange it like so:
Year 1 = $14,000,000
Year 2 = $14,000,000
Year 3 = $14,000,000
Year 4 = $14,000,000
Year 5 = $12,600,000
Year 6 = $11,200,000
Year 7 = $9,800,000

Cap hit becomes $12,800,000 as opposed to the contract they actually offered him, which had the first 4 years at 14 million then dropped well off the mark to get the cap hit to $7,857,143.


Last edited by Kaoz*: 12-28-2012 at 02:15 PM.
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Old
12-28-2012, 12:05 PM
  #365
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just as a followup to illustrate the point i was getting at in my last post... about stars being worth money but that not being the problem here...

lets think about our own bruin team and how it just won the cup. I ask you all... how many of those players do you honestly care play this year for the team or not?

lets say there was 23 key members of that team for arguments sake... and lets say for arguments sake we could pick only 10 of them to be on this team... and 13 got replaced... and we won another cup...

do we honestly care about those 13 players that were part of the last cup win and not part of this one?

like the patriots... we all care about brady right? and a few others... the coach i guess... but if you found out that there was a new third string qb... or a new special teams kickoff return guy... or a new second string tail back? would it really matter as long as the team won again?

sure guys like paille and ference and boychuck and caron and thornton and whatever... ryder... all look like heros if the team is coming off a cup win. They all have a part to play if they just won the cup... and the cup win is fresh in our memories...

but these guys could just as easily be non descript members of a team like columbus that finishes last overall to. These guys arent difference makers. Unless they are in the 'right' situation... they all could easily play on the worst team in the league and never be noticed.

the uniform makes the player sometimes. alot of the time. for me, theres around 10 guys on the current team i would actually miss if they got moved this year. I mean... 10 guys id fear wed not be able to replace. I miss them all.. sentimentally, but i love the new guys that come. When mark recchi left i missed him sentimentally but i like his replacement just fine. No one will ever replace terry oreilly to me.. or ray bourque... or cam neely... or bobby orr... but those players are very few... very far between.

guys like shawn thornton and gregory campbell and chris kelly and rich peverly are appreciated when they are here... if the team happens to be successful... but whoever replaces them will be equally appreciated 9 times out of 10 as long as the team continues to be as successful or more successful.

thats where the economics argument of unions falls apart here for most of us when you try to justify contracts for the middle class on NHL players and the cap floor and arbitration and long term guaranteed deals for guys that dont perform

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Old
12-28-2012, 12:10 PM
  #366
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
It can differ 10% year to year. Not sure if there is a variance limit on the first to last years but if not...

If Boston offered some UFA the max 7 year contract making 7 million in the 1st year for instance, the max they can decrease that year to year to get the cap hit down is 10%.

Year 1 = $7,000,000
Year 2 = $6,300,000 (less 10% of 7million)
Year 3 = $5,670,000 (less 10% of 6.3million)
Year 4 = $5,103,000
Year 5 = $4,592,700
Year 6 = $4,133,430
Year 7 = $3,720,087

So the cap hit ends up being $5,217,031 over the 7 year contract. Still a significant drop of 47% from the first to final year in actual cash, but the cap hit remains a bit truer to the highest year.

Better example of a contract as it's the exact type of contract they are trying to prevent is how it would affect the Philly/Weber offer. If Philly offered Weber the same deal (except shortened to 7 years) and wanted to out price Nashville with 4 years at 14mill and then a drop to lower the cap hit, the most they could do would be to arrange it like so:
Year 1 = $14,000,000
Year 2 = $14,000,000
Year 3 = $14,000,000
Year 4 = $14,000,000
Year 5 = $12,600,000
Year 6 = $11,340,000
Year 7 = $10,206,000

Cap hit becomes $12,878,000 as opposed to the contract they actually offered him, which had the first 4 years at 14 million then dropped well off the mark to get the cap hit to $7,857,143.
not just to effect situations like philly.. also to stop this blatant slap in the face of guys who obviously intend to retire on the tail end of contracts where the payout to stick around is just minimum wage.

a front loaded deal like thomas has... was never intended to be underhanded or shady. a deal like thomas had is a reward to a vet for a job well done. the variance is 'reasonable'

front loaded deals like kovalchuck got though are just jokes to the spirit of the cap and had to be addressed in this new CBA. even if one or two of these deals ever did get played out to the end... the majority of them are simple slaps in the face and make a mockery of the league and its authority to enforce the intent of the cba on its member teams.

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12-28-2012, 12:38 PM
  #367
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We could see another cup this summer folks...
with a *

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12-28-2012, 12:43 PM
  #368
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with a *
A cup is a cup....is a cup

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12-28-2012, 12:50 PM
  #369
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with a *
It can have 20 * beside it. It's the CUP!

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12-28-2012, 12:51 PM
  #370
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Here you have it: 300 pages reduced in point form

http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/i...ec-27-proposal

Last CBA was 600 pages. This is a pretty definitive and descriptive proposal by the league

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12-28-2012, 01:06 PM
  #371
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Originally Posted by DarrenBanks56 View Post
with a *
Yep, and no doubt leafs/Canucks/habs etc fans would always give us **** for it in the scenario that we do win...but every team has the same chances. A cup is a cup

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12-28-2012, 01:19 PM
  #372
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i dont really care about the *. i just wanna see playoff hockey.
short seasons just worry me though.
if there is a season and we start off like last season- see ya later. youre done

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12-28-2012, 01:24 PM
  #373
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This from ESPN writer Craig Custance about where he believes this is going- his opinion but he and fellow ESPN hockey writer Scott Burnside have had conversations with both sides and have been pretty good all along

Quote:
CUSTANCE: I'll revise my prediction to a Jan. 16 start of the season, with a 50-game season. That would allow us the possibility of an exciting 50 goals in 50 games chase by Steven Stamkos or someone else, which is the kind of excitement the league will need to attract sports fans turned off by another lockout. Plus, I like round numbers. But they'd have to move fast to get there. The players will have a conference call at 3 p.m. ET today to mull things over and debate the details of this offer, but it has to be close. If there's some wiggle room on transition rules and the salary cap next season, I'm even more optimistic. Was told by a source last week that some of the smaller things are all but agreed upon -- like a third-party appeal process for supplemental discipline and moving the start of free agency to later in July. This offer seems to address some of the bigger issues. Now we wait and see if it's enough

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12-28-2012, 01:30 PM
  #374
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Nick Kypreos‏@RealKyper

"Good sign #NHL owners aren't willing to burn season but latest offer not close 2 getting deal done. #NHLPA counter offer already in works"

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12-28-2012, 01:32 PM
  #375
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Originally Posted by KnightofBoston View Post
I heard this as well

If there's a season (which I strongly think there will be and have this whole time) every fan that said "just cancel it already" or made any kind of negative remarks at the validity of shortened season, you are not allowed to watch NHL hockey until September 2013

A season means Chara doesn't lose a year, Seguin will be coming back off a hot goal scoring streak, and a healthy bruins team heading into April provided a lack of freak accidents

We could see another cup this summer folks...
He heh. Imma pee ma pants.

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