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2012 CBA/Lockout talk Part VII..Will a deal get done..

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Old
01-03-2013, 10:21 AM
  #801
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TSN summary of where things stand http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=412704

Pretty much as Dom outlined.

Hey, DKH and others, if we get a short marathon season, do you think it is a great situation for a last ride with TT in Boston? Assuming he would play anywhere this season of course. I have not seen anybody involved say definitively that he will never play in Boston again so I assume it's possible, even if remotely so. I think a short season is a great scenario for milking every last drop out of TT's Boston years. The season would be short enough to basically serve as a warm up for him and Rask, then the playoffs are here and he's rested and hopefully healthy and ready to go. And BTW the cap is the highest it will be for a long time so go for it now is the rule. Since it's such an oddball season - it's happening, right?, 48-50 games, right?? - why not throw assumptions out the window and go for it one last time with the old gang? I would love to see one last hurrah out of this full group before we say goodbye to TT, probably Horton, and possibly others next year when the payroll axe swings through the Bruins roster. This is one thing that would make me feel good about this season, going for it as the last hurrah of a very nice roster we were lucky to have for a few years.

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01-03-2013, 10:23 AM
  #802
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Dont know. Daly and S Fehr had many issues settled over a month ago, only to become issues again.

Biggest issues I see now are:

1) NHLPA now wants a $65 million cap for next season (down from $67 million they proposed last month) while NHL is stuck on their $60 million

2) NHL has asked that $50 million of the $300 make whole goes towards pensions. Player pension has almost always been largely paid by players, however, PA is asking for $1 million from each team (another $30 million to their fund). League says they can't do it. Suppose to be a couple of pension experts take part in negotiations today. So many ways to make money for the pension such as World Cup, I don't know why its such a big deal.

3) While the PA didn't file the disclaimer, they have until 5 PM Tuesday to respond in court to the Leagues actions filed last month. Unfortunately, IMO, unfair pressure on the PA

Seems like the mediator has done a masterful job at bringing them closer together. Most of the other issues are "doable" with the PA giving in on contract length and the length of the CBA and a whole host of other things. Heard they gave in on the 10 year CBA with conditions largely because of the mediator. (who have been present for parts of the sessions)

There's also quiet rumors that agent Pat Brisson is once again involved behind the scenes but no one is able to confirm it.
i might be one of the biggest owner supporters around here... but i cant really back the owners on any of these issues.

the cap doesnt mean anything since the players can only get a % of total hrr anyhow. If the cap is set too high, all that it ultimately does is give richer teams an opportunity to pick up more of the costs. the final numbers after escrow will ultimately work out the same for the players no matter what the cap is set at and teams will ultimately get their own payrolls balanced out to a rorated share based on how they decided to control their budgets too.

as for pensions... they should be higher. its a disgrace what was done to players in the past and the owners have a huge share of the guilt here. but then the players of today owe a ton of thanks to the guys that fought the battles yesteryear too. So not only should this money end up in the pension... but both sides should kick up even more IMHO. 1 mill per team is just a start of what I personally think should be added. I could add 2% of every current players salary also tossed into the pension too and that would add up to around 300 million or so right?

if these really are the only 2 big issues left then there better damn well be a deal done today and its up to the owners to give in on both of these problems or they are going to lose a ton of the support i have been willing to give them up to now.

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Old
01-03-2013, 10:33 AM
  #803
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>>the cap doesnt mean anything since the players can only get a % of total hrr anyhow. If the cap is set too high, all that it ultimately does is give richer teams an opportunity to pick up more of the costs. the final numbers after escrow will ultimately work out the same for the players no matter what the cap is set at and teams will ultimately get their own payrolls balanced out to a rorated share based on how they decided to control their budgets too.

You must be making a false assumption here. If it "doesn't mean anything" then why is it one of the key issues holding up an agreement? And how does the cap conflate with what we hear about the union's interest in limiting escrow? Clearly the cap does matter in material ways to both parties.


>>as for pensions... they should be higher. its a disgrace what was done to players in the past and the owners have a huge share of the guilt here. but then the players of today owe a ton of thanks to the guys that fought the battles yesteryear too. So not only should this money end up in the pension... but both sides should kick up even more IMHO. 1 mill per team is just a start of what I personally think should be added. I could add 2% of every current players salary also tossed into the pension too and that would add up to around 300 million or so right?

That would be nice but unfortunately it is not really the typical for a business to decide that it has not adequately taken care of employees in the past and to obligate itself to compensate those people. If you have been "pro owners" then that must be at least partly attributable to buying into their complaints about the financial health of the teams, the league, and the overall long term financial health of the NHL. Otherwise, what motive would there be to side with the owners except for bitterness towards the rich players. So if you support the owners for these kinds of reasons, it should make sense to you that they would not be enthusiastic to cough up any more money than they have to, especially out of some guilt over how past employees were treated. Let's face it, owners and players are both clawing for every dollar they can carve out of the available $ and that's all there is to this. If you think these guys are fighting about getting more benefits for Stan Mikita, I think you're deluded. If you think these guys will lose money out of their pockets for Stan Mikita, I think you're deluded. If you think these guys are fighting for anything more than getting future benefits for Milan Lucic and Patrick Kane, or not, they I think you're deluded.


>>if these really are the only 2 big issues left

Those are not the only 2 issues left.

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01-03-2013, 10:41 AM
  #804
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aaronward_nhl: If NHLPA has to revisit 'Disclaimer of Interest', it will again require a FULL membership vote. #TSN

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01-03-2013, 10:46 AM
  #805
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This is potentially a big deal for all teams. No idea if/how it would be used in the case of Boston but it is certainly an interesting tool for a team to have at its disposal. Rick Dipietro, enjoy your last months on Long Island. Bryzgalov, Luongo, Stajan - you too.

===

Pierre LeBrun ‏@Real_ESPNLeBrun

Another detail emerging: NHL has upped its compliance buyout offer to 2 per team, up from 1 prior to 2013-14 season.

===

An interesting theory that emerged is that a team could use this tool to buy out long term, expensive contracts that dog the cap and then re-sign that player to a deal that is more friendly to the new CBA. One can only imagine how some craft GMs, the types who perfected backdiving contracts for example, will use this to help them with salary cap challenges. Again, no idea what the Bruins would do on this front but one wonders how you might effectively restructure 2 contracts to keep the player but at a friendlier cap hit or term. ?

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01-03-2013, 10:47 AM
  #806
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alberta_OReilly_Fan View Post
i might be one of the biggest owner supporters around here... but i cant really back the owners on any of these issues.

the cap doesnt mean anything since the players can only get a % of total hrr anyhow. If the cap is set too high, all that it ultimately does is give richer teams an opportunity to pick up more of the costs. the final numbers after escrow will ultimately work out the same for the players no matter what the cap is set at and teams will ultimately get their own payrolls balanced out to a rorated share based on how they decided to control their budgets too.

as for pensions... they should be higher. its a disgrace what was done to players in the past and the owners have a huge share of the guilt here. but then the players of today owe a ton of thanks to the guys that fought the battles yesteryear too. So not only should this money end up in the pension... but both sides should kick up even more IMHO. 1 mill per team is just a start of what I personally think should be added. I could add 2% of every current players salary also tossed into the pension too and that would add up to around 300 million or so right?

if these really are the only 2 big issues left then there better damn well be a deal done today and its up to the owners to give in on both of these problems or they are going to lose a ton of the support i have been willing to give them up to now.
1) Incorrect. Year two is a guaranteed cap. PA wants $65 million, league is proposing $60 million as a guarantee not to drop below regardless of revenues. But its not so much the cap limit as it is the floor which would be $49 million under the PA's $65 million cap and $44 million under the NHL's $60 million cap. I can't say much about it other than "you'll have to take my word for it that the $5 million difference in the floor makes a difference to several teams. It's not as many think: a penalty to teams that have spent to the cap.

2) As for the pension, there is so many ways for the owners to add to the pension without it coming "out of pocket" for the owners. Like I said earlier, a World Cup of Hockey where proceeds go to the pension fund, 1% of sales of merchandise, I mean the list can go on and on. For now, I'll just let the experts that are going to be involved today give the NHL and PA some professional advice.

3) The TSN article states that contract length is still an issue - owners propose 6 year max, 7 years for your own players. Someone's info has to be wrong and could very likely be mine. But I was given the impression the PA has agreed to the NHL proposal of 6 and 7.

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01-03-2013, 10:49 AM
  #807
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Originally Posted by Alberta_OReilly_Fan View Post
i might be one of the biggest owner supporters around here... but i cant really back the owners on any of these issues.

the cap doesnt mean anything since the players can only get a % of total hrr anyhow. If the cap is set too high, all that it ultimately does is give richer teams an opportunity to pick up more of the costs. the final numbers after escrow will ultimately work out the same for the players no matter what the cap is set at and teams will ultimately get their own payrolls balanced out to a rorated share based on how they decided to control their budgets too.

as for pensions... they should be higher. its a disgrace what was done to players in the past and the owners have a huge share of the guilt here. but then the players of today owe a ton of thanks to the guys that fought the battles yesteryear too. So not only should this money end up in the pension... but both sides should kick up even more IMHO. 1 mill per team is just a start of what I personally think should be added. I could add 2% of every current players salary also tossed into the pension too and that would add up to around 300 million or so right?

if these really are the only 2 big issues left then there better damn well be a deal done today and its up to the owners to give in on both of these problems or they are going to lose a ton of the support i have been willing to give them up to now.
The cap does mean something though, a second year cap at 65 million means the NHL wouldn't go to a true 50/50 split until year 3. Amnesty was the other transitional issue the NHL already gave in on completely already, my assumption is that because they gave on part already, that they expect the PA to give ground on the other part?

I thought pensions were agreed on? Wasn't Fehr adamant in his first December 5th interview that this was already done? That it was being completely covered by the players?

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01-03-2013, 10:52 AM
  #808
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The cap does mean something though, a second year cap at 65 million means the NHL wouldn't go to a true 50/50 split until year 3.

Amnesty was the other transitional issue the NHL already gave in on completely already.

I thought pensions were agreed on? Wasn't Fehr adamant in his first December 5th interview that this was already done? That it was being completely covered by the players?
Didn't the league take everything off the table?

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01-03-2013, 10:59 AM
  #809
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Didn't the league take everything off the table?
They did, and then it appears they came back to the table with a better offer in the interest of getting a season going... no doubt in part because going back on issues that were supposedly closed off likely wouldn't help the negotiation process.

Maybe there is a more legitimate reason the PA reopened the issue of pensions?

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01-03-2013, 11:06 AM
  #810
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>>2) As for the pension, there is so many ways for the owners to add to the pension without it coming "out of pocket" for the owners. Like I said earlier, a World Cup of Hockey where proceeds go to the pension fund, 1% of sales of merchandise, I mean the list can go on and on.

Dom, maybe this whole thing has made me cynical, but it strikes me that if any NHL sponsored or related activity or event generates revenue, the owners and players will both have their hands deep into the pocket to extract their $ first and foremost. Maybe some proceeds go to other worthwhile endeavors, including taking care of retired players in need, but it would surprise me if anything like that happened without some healthy compensation to the parties putting on the show. But like I said, I'm just cynical at this point about any altruism showing up in the NHL world. I guess it probably would sound good to the parties today if some ideas are put out there that let the players/owners feel like they are checking this off the to-do list to get a deal done without any immediate $ being taken out of their hands.

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01-03-2013, 11:08 AM
  #811
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
They did, and then it appears they came back to the table with a better offer in the interest of getting a season going... no doubt in part because going back on issues that were supposedly closed off likely wouldn't help the negotiation process.

Maybe there is a more legitimate reason the PA reopened the issue of pensions?
In all fairness It was the league that re-opened it between the offer that pensions were subsequently agreed to and the 300 page proposal that started these latest round of talks and that came when they proposed $50 million of the $300 million make whole be put towards the players pensions.

The PA basically said ok if each team adds $1 million to that. Don't know how much the mediator had to do with it or how much the mediator has to do with experts coming in today, but we'll just have to wait and see how it plays out.

It's going to be a long weekend. May have to cancel 4 days of hockey games just to stay informed

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01-03-2013, 11:10 AM
  #812
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World Junior tourney is great- I can wait another few days for an agreement. Its soooooooooooo coming.

I had season tickets in 1994-5 err, 95 and it was the GREATEST regular season hockey ever seen in my 30 years as a season ticket holder.

We play our Division 28 times wow- the hate is going to be epic
Miller, Ott, Scott, Regher, Kaleta...7 times? Thank you

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01-03-2013, 11:11 AM
  #813
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It's going to be a long weekend. May have to cancel 4 days of hockey games just to stay informed
What's the drop dead date again, the 10th? I think we can just all check in on the 10th to see how it all turned out. Why stop haggling now, that seems to be Fehr's mindset. He knows the owners don't want to lose the season now, keep asking until time runs out.

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01-03-2013, 11:14 AM
  #814
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Miller, Ott, Scott, Regher, Kaleta...7 times? Thank you
Well, Scott 2 times.

Game 1 - the getting to know you game

Game 2 - Lucic beats down Kaleta or Ott

Game 3 - the "revenge game," Scott dresses to fight Lucic

Game 4 - the "keep the peace game," Scott dresses but is his usual useless self

Games 5-7 - now the games matter and Scott does not see the ice the rest of the season

John Scott sux!

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01-03-2013, 11:18 AM
  #815
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Originally Posted by Black Eye View Post
>>2) As for the pension, there is so many ways for the owners to add to the pension without it coming "out of pocket" for the owners. Like I said earlier, a World Cup of Hockey where proceeds go to the pension fund, 1% of sales of merchandise, I mean the list can go on and on.

Dom, maybe this whole thing has made me cynical, but it strikes me that if any NHL sponsored or related activity or event generates revenue, the owners and players will both have their hands deep into the pocket to extract their $ first and foremost. Maybe some proceeds go to other worthwhile endeavors, including taking care of retired players in need, but it would surprise me if anything like that happened without some healthy compensation to the parties putting on the show. But like I said, I'm just cynical at this point about any altruism showing up in the NHL world. I guess it probably would sound good to the parties today if some ideas are put out there that let the players/owners feel like they are checking this off the to-do list to get a deal done without any immediate $ being taken out of their hands.
Well, there would have to be an agreement on a split somehow. I just don't see how the league would need revenue from it because they wouldn't miss any of their own games, it would just be allowing players to take part. But as an example I'll use the World Juniors: Last time they were in Canada they made a profit of $18 million.

Now, I wouldn't hesitate in saying that a World Cup would make a lot more money than that with larger arenas, greater TV revenue and merchandise sales.

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01-03-2013, 11:24 AM
  #816
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And here you have it

@HarryHabs: CBC confirming the #NHL contacted them to get ready for a Jan 19 start. Habs-Leafs at 7pm, Flames-Oilers 10pm.

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01-03-2013, 11:25 AM
  #817
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All I care about right now is the cap. If it drops to $60 mil the Bruins are ****ed. Trust Jacobs to undermine his own team. ::puke emoticon::

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01-03-2013, 11:31 AM
  #818
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In all fairness It was the league that re-opened it between the offer that pensions were subsequently agreed to and the 300 page proposal that started these latest round of talks and that came when they proposed $50 million of the $300 million make whole be put towards the players pensions.

The PA basically said ok if each team adds $1 million to that. Don't know how much the mediator had to do with it or how much the mediator has to do with experts coming in today, but we'll just have to wait and see how it plays out.

It's going to be a long weekend. May have to cancel 4 days of hockey games just to stay informed
Interesting.

The PA is essentially saying "if you want to take some of our 'make whole' money and put it towards our future and retired players then you need to kick in more money to it as well"?

I wonder if the NHL pulled that 50 million stipulation out if the players would drop their stipulation that the NHL kick in that 30 mill extra?

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All I care about right now is the cap. If it drops to $60 mil the Bruins are ****ed. Trust Jacobs to undermine his own team. ::puke emoticon::
How are they?

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01-03-2013, 11:33 AM
  #819
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I don't think the cap dropping hurts the Bruins any more than other top-spending teams. The Rangers and Canucks are examples of teams that will have to make sacrifices in this case as well.

It's not like the Bruins are going to get rid of any of their top guys to become cap-compliant. They'll get rid of guys like Paille and Peverley and fast-track some of the kids. Granted you hate to see those guys go, but a lot of people around here would give anything to see prospects get a shot and other teams would have to take similar chances.

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01-03-2013, 11:34 AM
  #820
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And here you have it

@HarryHabs: CBC confirming the #NHL contacted them to get ready for a Jan 19 start. Habs-Leafs at 7pm, Flames-Oilers 10pm.
and he said. Let there be Hockey!!!!

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01-03-2013, 11:42 AM
  #821
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I am so tired of feeling like Charlie Brown and the football ( not sure but I think Lucy may be slightly taller than GB). Will wait until its over to celebrate and IF there is a season; a) will go to the games and b) not spend anything that would go into the pocket of Delaware North which is just about everything in the Garden

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01-03-2013, 11:43 AM
  #822
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And here you have it

@HarryHabs: CBC confirming the #NHL contacted them to get ready for a Jan 19 start. Habs-Leafs at 7pm, Flames-Oilers 10pm.
Who the hell is harryhabs? Looks like some random dude.

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01-03-2013, 11:46 AM
  #823
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Who the hell is harryhabs? Looks like some random dude.
your guess is as good as mine.

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...&postcount=266

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01-03-2013, 11:51 AM
  #824
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Players optimistic
 after owners’ offer .

“I know personally I’m very excited, but I’m trying not to get too hyped up because if things don’t go the way we hope, then I’ll be disappointed,” said Bruins winger Brad Marchand, who has returned to Boston after spending time in his native Nova Scotia. “But we’re definitely skating with a little more of a purpose right now. And there’s an end in sight, whatever way it goes. It’s definitely a lot more fun out there.”


http://bostonherald.com/sports/bruin...E2%80%99_offer

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01-03-2013, 11:52 AM
  #825
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I am still not sure how a 48 game schedule would work.

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