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2012 CBA/Lockout talk Part VII..Will a deal get done..

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Old
12-21-2012, 07:19 PM
  #176
Spooner st
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Originally Posted by JMiller View Post
Sure seems to send a message about player unity.
Most of them thought the vote was for the owners to pay for golf during summer.
The 22 that voted no don't play golf they want to money instead.

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12-21-2012, 08:33 PM
  #177
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Originally Posted by Spooner st View Post
Most of them thought the vote was for the owners to pay for golf during summer.
The 22 that voted no don't play golf they want to money instead.
just wondering why you'd even bother with a league whose players you apparently dislike intensely. Or maybe it's JJ you cheer when the Bruins take the ice.

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12-21-2012, 10:30 PM
  #178
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Sure seems to send a message about player unity.
Sadam Hussein used to get 100% percent of the vote too. Just sayin.

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12-22-2012, 06:01 AM
  #179
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Originally Posted by neelynugs View Post
got a question - wasn't sure about this, but assuming the PA disclaims interest...isn't it true that don fehr will not be able to "represent" them anymore? obviously he'd be like the wizard of oz, pulling strings/levers behind the PA's curtain...but wouldn't they have to bring in a different attorney to lead the process? if that is the case, i'd imagine the NHL is fine with disclaiming interest, since they've wanted this guy out of the room since day 1.
A disclaimer is actually the union choosing not to represent the players... but the players openly voted on it so...

Edit: OOG is far more accurate and concise below

All current contracts would likely be null and void. benefits would all be lost, and players/agents would be free to sign new contracts governed by only what owners were willing to pay and the verbage within those contracts. The high end players would likely win large when penning new contracts and the mid to lower end players would likely take a huge cut. Back when the NBA union disclaimed interest a sports law professor had this to say (Fisher and Hunter in this case being our equivilant to Fehr and Fehr):

Quote:
OS: So it’s not as if Fisher and Hunter can continue to speak with the league, reach a deal and then decide to reform the union, right?

GF: Actually, in some ways that could be an unfair labor practice. You’re not entitled to bargain on behalf of players unless you are their bargaining unit. And by disclaiming interest they are ending their status as the players’ bargaining unit.

So Hunter and Kessler and Boies and whoever else remains there no longer have the power to negotiate on behalf of the players.
All they would have the power to do is negotiate an antitrust settlement on behalf of whatever plaintiffs are there.
In the NBA, post union dissolving, the league and the players agreed to start negotiating once again and when they managed to reach a tentative agreement a vote was held to reform the union. Then they had a new CBA. That's one of the main benefits with a disclaimer is the union can be reformed at any time unlike actual decertification (where the union has to wait a year to reform). It's what we saw happen with the NBAPA who went through the process, dissolved the union, filed their suits and two weeks later reformed the union. The NBAPA thought the process helped them in their negotiations on certain fronts, such as mid level exceptions but in reality they still went to a 50/50 split right away and signed a CBA that everyone largely thought was a huge win for the owners.

Cox actually called the way they'd present the vote:
Quote:
Just don’t be surprised today when the NHL Players’ Association announces, as expected, that its membership has voted to give the union’s executive board the power to disclaim interest as the negotiating body of NHL players.

They’ll want to make a splash with this one. They’ll want to paint it as “overwhelming” or “resounding” or “unanimous,” and of course it should be. After all, the players aren’t actually voting to dissolve the union. Just voting to give authority to those who, in theory anyway, could.

It’s a negotiating ploy. It’s not real, at least not yet. It’s the opening gambit in an exercise in legal theory, because despite the fact that some want to suggest this would somehow injure NHL owners and force them to their knees, nobody really knows how this process might actually work in the real world.
I wonder if it's an sort of omen for Fehr that the NBAPA has lost all faith in the union head that took them through that process:
NBPA sends anti-Derek Fisher memo
Quote:
The executive committee of the NBA Players Association sent a memo to its player representatives Tuesday night that presented NBPA president Derek Fisher as a rogue leader who has been delinquent in his duties since the end of the lockout.


Last edited by Kaoz*; 12-22-2012 at 08:37 AM..
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Old
12-22-2012, 07:57 AM
  #180
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Originally Posted by spokedB View Post
just wondering why you'd even bother with a league whose players you apparently dislike intensely. Or maybe it's JJ you cheer when the Bruins take the ice.
I'm a fan of THE Boston Bruins as a TEAM... Not of the casual player that happens to wear the colors for a few seasons.

I admire players for the talent they display on the ice... Not a fan of the greedy players that are out of touch with reality and make fun of those that pay the big price to see them.

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12-22-2012, 08:08 AM
  #181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neelynugs View Post
got a question - wasn't sure about this, but assuming the PA disclaims interest...isn't it true that don fehr will not be able to "represent" them anymore? obviously he'd be like the wizard of oz, pulling strings/levers behind the PA's curtain...but wouldn't they have to bring in a different attorney to lead the process? if that is the case, i'd imagine the NHL is fine with disclaiming interest, since they've wanted this guy out of the room since day 1.
If they choose to actually disclaim, Fehr will head a Player's Federation (not a union) that will lead players into anti trust suits and will also advise the players on any negotiations with the NHL. He won't be out of the picture.

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12-22-2012, 08:42 AM
  #182
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Originally Posted by OrrOverGretzky View Post
If they choose to actually disclaim, Fehr will head a Player's Federation (not a union) that will lead players into anti trust suits and will also advise the players on any negotiations with the NHL. He won't be out of the picture.
Can we decrease the size of the picture Dom??

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12-22-2012, 08:52 AM
  #183
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all this filing and decertifying and blah, blah, blah....here's an idea. Enjoy Christmas, take the next day off to unplug and drive your kids to the Mall so they can return your stuff, and then on Thursday and Friday meet and get this stupid thing done

make it 6/8 on contract length (protect against age and money fluctuations)

make the cap not a fur ball to teams up against it for 2013-4 (like us)....amnisty? or escrow- meet in the middle here for ONE BLEEPING year

do 10/8 on CBA length

make sure Crosby, Richards, and Westgarth and a core group play a significant role so the casual fan thinks you guys bridged this and so guys like Spooner St wont hate you

apologize and look like you mean it

drop the puck- bring on Steve Ott

oh, and don't let JJ talk

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12-22-2012, 09:31 AM
  #184
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There has to be a line on which gets done first, a new CBA or a new fiscal cliff deal.

Edit-
Right now even money on the lockout ending Jan 15th (in September even money said December 15th)


Last edited by Over the volcano; 12-22-2012 at 09:37 AM..
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Old
12-22-2012, 10:15 AM
  #185
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Originally Posted by Spooner st View Post
I'm a fan of THE Boston Bruins as a TEAM... Not of the casual player that happens to wear the colors for a few seasons.

I admire players for the talent they display on the ice... Not a fan of the greedy players that are out of touch with reality and make fun of those that pay the big price to see them.
I'm a fan of Bobby Orr, of Ace Bailey (God rest his soul), of Terry O'Reilly. I'm a fan of Patrice Bergeron and Zdeno Chara. And I will continue to be, as long as I live. I don't cheer for a jersey; I cheer for those who have worn that jersey with pride.

To each their own, I guess.

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12-22-2012, 10:25 AM
  #186
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Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
I'm a fan of Bobby Orr, of Ace Bailey (God rest his soul), of Terry O'Reilly. I'm a fan of Patrice Bergeron and Zdeno Chara. And I will continue to be, as long as I live. I don't cheer for a jersey; I cheer for those who have worn that jersey with pride.

To each their own, I guess.
All of the players you mention have had long term impacts on the franchise. Spooner st was referring to the casual player who fills out a sweater for a year or two.

To each his/her own, I guess.

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12-22-2012, 11:54 AM
  #187
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Originally Posted by OrrOverGretzky View Post
If they choose to actually disclaim, Fehr will head a Player's Federation (not a union) that will lead players into anti trust suits and will also advise the players on any negotiations with the NHL. He won't be out of the picture.
but will fehr be allowed in the negotiating "room"? if not, i'd say that's a big step in the right direction.

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12-22-2012, 12:02 PM
  #188
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whenever people argue about cheering for the player vs. cheering for the franchise it kind of annoys me, because the obvious answer is that you cheer for both. It seems obvious to me anyway that it's a balance between being loyal to a franchise but also caring about individual players and recognizing that they aren't just faceless guys wearing the sweater.

Plus I don't think you could just wipe out the whole roster and start with a clean slate without having a serious impact on the soul of a franchise. The cool thing about pro sports is that a team's roster at any given time is a product of generations of talent flowing through the system to the point that it almost becomes like a genealogy. When you can trace things like drafting Lucic back to the Glen Wesley trade or whatever, those things become such a part of the fabric of the franchise that it seems impossible to me to separate cheering for the roster from cheering for the sweater.

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12-22-2012, 12:18 PM
  #189
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Originally Posted by RussellmaniaKW View Post
whenever people argue about cheering for the player vs. cheering for the franchise it kind of annoys me, because the obvious answer is that you cheer for both. It seems obvious to me anyway that it's a balance between being loyal to a franchise but also caring about individual players and recognizing that they aren't just faceless guys wearing the sweater.

Plus I don't think you could just wipe out the whole roster and start with a clean slate without having a serious impact on the soul of a franchise. The cool thing about pro sports is that a team's roster at any given time is a product of generations of talent flowing through the system to the point that it almost becomes like a genealogy. When you can trace things like drafting Lucic back to the Glen Wesley trade or whatever, those things become such a part of the fabric of the franchise that it seems impossible to me to separate cheering for the roster from cheering for the sweater.
Totally agree, but there are some sports fans who regard players as nothing more than video game avatars. I'm not saying they're the majority, or even that they're wrong - it's the way they choose to follow a team. As I said, to each their own.

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12-22-2012, 01:20 PM
  #190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RussellmaniaKW View Post
whenever people argue about cheering for the player vs. cheering for the franchise it kind of annoys me, because the obvious answer is that you cheer for both. It seems obvious to me anyway that it's a balance between being loyal to a franchise but also caring about individual players and recognizing that they aren't just faceless guys wearing the sweater.

Plus I don't think you could just wipe out the whole roster and start with a clean slate without having a serious impact on the soul of a franchise. The cool thing about pro sports is that a team's roster at any given time is a product of generations of talent flowing through the system to the point that it almost becomes like a genealogy. When you can trace things like drafting Lucic back to the Glen Wesley trade or whatever, those things become such a part of the fabric of the franchise that it seems impossible to me to separate cheering for the roster from cheering for the sweater.
A bit OT, but why did Hartford give up the farm for Wesley? Seriously, 3 first round picks?

I was pretty young at the time, so I just knew Wesley as a second pairing defenseman in NHLPA 93.

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12-22-2012, 01:24 PM
  #191
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A bit OT, but why did Hartford give up the farm for Wesley? Seriously, 3 first round picks?

I was pretty young at the time, so I just knew Wesley as a second pairing defenseman in NHLPA 93.
I think just because he was a young developed player with an offensive game you knew you'd get minutes and points from him.

They got a lot of mileage out of Wesley even if he wasn't a perennial Norris contender.

But freak Hartford that franchise are complete jerks for the trade they made with Pittsburgh putting them over the top in 92 with the Francis ripoff trade they deserve to be moved for that.

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12-22-2012, 01:32 PM
  #192
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I am a fan of the bruins but I am part of the Just Drop It campaign so if and when they do come back I will be going with what I pledged to do

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12-22-2012, 02:08 PM
  #193
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but will fehr be allowed in the negotiating "room"? if not, i'd say that's a big step in the right direction.
I think what you'll see is this:

Following Boxing Day, a Fehr led NHLPA and NHL making a hard two or three day push for an agreement that won't come to fruition.

January 2nd the NHLPA Executive Board files their disclaimer of interest and a group of agents takes over negotiating led on the advice of Fehr - in the background - so no, he won't be in the negotiating room.

I don't know if it's a step in the right direction, but if I'm Gary Bettman, I'd rather Fehr in the room then Alan Walsh

I know I've knocked Walsh a lot here, but in all fairness, personally I've had no issues with him. He's quite easy to talk to. But he couldn't give to craps about the welfare of the league.

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12-22-2012, 02:43 PM
  #194
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There seems to be lots of pretty key issues that remain outstanding. I, like many fans, have engaged in some wishful thinking on this fiasco since it started, thinking....hoping that a deal gets done so we can see, at least, a 48 game schedule. Now I'm far less optimistic as there seems to be no middle ground on critical issues, or those issues the NHLPA & the league have deemed critical. Now we're down to a 'who will blink first' scenario, but the next blink we see may well be the blink of 'last call'. The systemic and unnecessary time-wasting tactics has left precious little time to get a whole lot accomplished.

Here's an article by Pierre LeBrun of ESPN that talks about what's left to be done and the urgency of getting at it NOW!

http://m.espn.go.com/general/blogs/b...91&w=1cg2z&wjb

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12-22-2012, 02:44 PM
  #195
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Originally Posted by OrrOverGretzky View Post
I think what you'll see is this:

Following Boxing Day, a Fehr led NHLPA and NHL making a hard two or three day push for an agreement that won't come to fruition.

January 2nd the NHLPA Executive Board files their disclaimer of interest and a group of agents takes over negotiating led on the advice of Fehr - in the background - so no, he won't be in the negotiating room.

I don't know if it's a step in the right direction, but if I'm Gary Bettman, I'd rather Fehr in the room then Alan Walsh

I know I've knocked Walsh a lot here, but in all fairness, personally I've had no issues with him. He's quite easy to talk to. But he couldn't give to craps about the welfare of the league.
Would Walsh even be allowed in the room? Wouldn't the group be more guys at the Pat Brisson and Don Meehan level?

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12-22-2012, 02:59 PM
  #196
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Would Walsh even be allowed in the room? Wouldn't the group be more guys at the Pat Brisson and Don Meehan level?
Yes he would. Players would have to deal with the league on an individual basis and that's where agents come in. But I don't know that he would have much pull like the Brisson's or Meehan's

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12-22-2012, 04:56 PM
  #197
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Yes he would. Players would have to deal with the league on an individual basis and that's where agents come in. But I don't know that he would have much pull like the Brisson's or Meehan's
Good lord, I hope not. We wouldn't see NHL hockey again for 5 years. Brisson was rumored to have gotten somewhat involved already I believe. He seems like his main interest is getting everyone back to the table, and right about now I don't think that would be a bad thing.

I doubt the NHL will budge on the big "hills", but hopefully there is some room to move on the smaller ones. The last ditch sessions will have to have a bit of give and take, so hopefully they saved their best offer for last.

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12-22-2012, 07:01 PM
  #198
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@JSportsnet: For the first time since last Tuesday, direct contact between the NHL and NHLPA. Bill Daly and Steve Fehr spoke today.

@JSportsnet: Have been told it appears unlikely that the NHL and PA will meet before Christmas. #tickticktick

@JSportsnet: Don't be surprised if the talks between the 2 sides resume as early as the 26th or 27th, at the latest. #NHLLockout

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12-22-2012, 07:14 PM
  #199
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Good lord, I hope not. We wouldn't see NHL hockey again for 5 years. Brisson was rumored to have gotten somewhat involved already I believe. He seems like his main interest is getting everyone back to the table, and right about now I don't think that would be a bad thing.

I doubt the NHL will budge on the big "hills", but hopefully there is some room to move on the smaller ones. The last ditch sessions will have to have a bit of give and take, so hopefully they saved their best offer for last.
but with 20/20 hindsight Don Fehr not only was never going to get an acceptable offer to him and he got the players to the end (their are two endings but they are within sight) pretty unified.

Kaoz, you are very sharp imo and you know that both sides will lose big time if they do not play.

For the players and their agents, they will lose over 1.6 Billion dollars. And probably 15-25% will never suit up in the NHL again. Wicked steep- ouchhhhhhhhhh

For the owners - they will be a punch line, an untrusting group in charge of not only the professional league to miss a full season but do it twice. Wow, just ****ing wow. Forget about the decline in revenues and deservedly so for I bet a good 3 or more, maybe 10 years

This is Apocolypse Now NHL version and because of that there is no bleeping way this does not get done

over term of contract

seriously, if they can't tweek these last issues and blow this up, this game will be ruined. It will be an amazing scene to see what it looks like when these knuckleheads agreed.

They would be splitting crap. They would be two-time cheaters. They could make a 100 year CBA and it would not be good enough.

I love hockey, I love the Bruins, but they would deserve whatever bad things happen to them.

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12-22-2012, 07:22 PM
  #200
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The owners will win, they will always win in this. They have nothing to lose because they did not make their wealth off of a sports team but from another business.

A players tenure is finite. A owner of a team is long term or sold to the next.

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