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St. John's IceCaps 2012-13 - Part II

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Old
01-13-2013, 01:51 PM
  #226
Holden Caulfield
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Originally Posted by Canadienjet View Post
It is beyond embrassing we have lost 7 in a row at home.Gagnon has been beyond terrible.

I get developing prospects but guys like O'Neill,Sol shouldn't be playing.They can't play at this level at least not right now.

I'm sorry if i want my team to win and not be embrassed every night .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W42iiCcFbxE

Go explain that to the people at Mile One.No silver lining for this terrible season.Sell out streak is still in tact for now..

No excuses for no heart,compete etc.Rather develop prospects in a winning environment.
Trust me, you won't find a guy that wants Gagnon out of the organization more than me. He is useless, but the Jets have no other options with him, he is under contract until the end of the season.

I think O'Neill is a typical prospect, ups and downs, but still has some upside. Sol, meh.

I understand that you want your team to win. Sorry if I come off as harsh, I am not advocating intentionally having a losing team, or intentionally losing games. But the cold harsh truth is winning in the AHL means little to nothing. 70% of these teams are owned by NHL clubs, and their sole purpose is to develop prospects, with winning being a secondary goal. While it'd be nice to win in St. John's, it's been proven there's little to no correlation between winning in AHL and good NHL development.

I am just unsure of what you expect to be done. Moves from outside the organization are not the answer, O'Neill, Pasquale, Telegin, Klingberg need to get better. They need to lead the team and start winning games.

Again, I am hoping in a year or two the team will start to be competitive without the need for guys like Ramsay, Jaffray, King, etc, and they will be like Manchester, who uses 97% NHL prospects on their team while still being a very solid team. But that will take a couple of years yet at least.

I understand being frustrated about your team not winning, whom you are paying good money to go see. I do. But right now is probably one of the best times for St. John's will a bunch of young guys playing key minutes. That's what is good about AHL, watching the stars of tomorrow.

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01-13-2013, 01:55 PM
  #227
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Already 25 shots for the IceCaps, its looking good.

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01-13-2013, 01:57 PM
  #228
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People, people, relax, bad streaks happen. Bridgeport lost 8 in a row a while back and no one on their end was panicking. The IceCaps have PLENTY of time to turn things around, IMO.

WTF --- penalty shot for the marlies.

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01-13-2013, 01:58 PM
  #229
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FFS -- tie game. PS goal Hamilton. Closing hand on the puck... really? And a Penalty to kill too..........

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01-13-2013, 02:01 PM
  #230
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Puck in the crowd... ambulance crew seen.. hopefully nothing serious.

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01-13-2013, 02:05 PM
  #231
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Originally Posted by Holden Caulfield View Post
Trust me, you won't find a guy that wants Gagnon out of the organization more than me. He is useless, but the Jets have no other options with him, he is under contract until the end of the season.

I think O'Neill is a typical prospect, ups and downs, but still has some upside. Sol, meh.

I understand that you want your team to win. Sorry if I come off as harsh, I am not advocating intentionally having a losing team, or intentionally losing games. But the cold harsh truth is winning in the AHL means little to nothing. 70% of these teams are owned by NHL clubs, and their sole purpose is to develop prospects, with winning being a secondary goal. While it'd be nice to win in St. John's, it's been proven there's little to no correlation between winning in AHL and good NHL development.

I am just unsure of what you expect to be done. Moves from outside the organization are not the answer, O'Neill, Pasquale, Telegin, Klingberg need to get better. They need to lead the team and start winning games.

Again, I am hoping in a year or two the team will start to be competitive without the need for guys like Ramsay, Jaffray, King, etc, and they will be like Manchester, who uses 97% NHL prospects on their team while still being a very solid team. But that will take a couple of years yet at least.

I understand being frustrated about your team not winning, whom you are paying good money to go see. I do. But right now is probably one of the best times for St. John's will a bunch of young guys playing key minutes. That's what is good about AHL, watching the stars of tomorrow.
I disagree with this somewhat.

I believe winning IS important to TN at the AHL level for a couple of reasons:

1> The goal of any good organization is to make it's developmental system self-sufficient. If you can cook your own prospects at no cost to you that is just good business sense. In order to break even at the AHL level you need to have a product that will attract people. Whether you run the team yourself or lease it out to someone, that person needs to be able to make some money to make it viable. The best way to attract people long term is by having a competitive team.

2> The best way to become a winner is by winning. If our prospects are continually losing at the AHL level that is what they learn to do. They are in the culture of losing, and they don't know how to win. How to handle the pressure of competing in the playoffs and having success. If you are breeding winners in your farm system, chances are that will transfer over to the NHL. These guys will be able to draw from their experiences when they are faced with them in the show.

It is a balancing act for sure, and the number one job for the AHL is to develop talent for the NHL. However, part of that is providing an environment where prospects can be successful. This is where the fact that the AHL is also a pro entertainment league is a real benefit. The players have the same pressures as they do in the NHL. From fans, the media. Having vets on your AHL club help by stabilizing the product, bringing experience into the equation to help the team win, and by mentoring the young prospects, showing them how to be pros and teaching lessons that coaches and GM's simply can't.

So, Holden, I think you are looking at this a little to simply. I think success at the AHL level and NHL player development go very hand in hand.

As for our friends who are fans of the Ice Caps: I am sorry you've had such a struggle watching the team this year. I know as an ex Oiler fan what it feels like. Hopefully with shrewd drafting and player acquisitions we can make a team you can be proud of in St. John's. I think with the track record of True North it's just a matter of time.

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01-13-2013, 02:35 PM
  #232
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I agree mostly with your post, but I would also like to stress that right now the IceCaps already have plenty of talent showing up every day, they are just underachieving and sometimes being simply unlucky. But it is definitely better to develop prospects in a winning environment.

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01-13-2013, 02:37 PM
  #233
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GOAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!! CLARK!

Hell yeah! This crowd is going insane.

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01-13-2013, 02:42 PM
  #234
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Originally Posted by MrMariusz View Post
I agree mostly with your post, but I would also like to stress that right now the IceCaps already have plenty of talent showing up every day, they are just underachieving and sometimes being simply unlucky. But it is definitely better to develop prospects in a winning environment.
Bolded for extra stress

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01-13-2013, 02:43 PM
  #235
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I have all kinds of faith that TNSE will keep a balance between developing players for the 'Peg and icing a competitive team for the fans here and the prospects, who I am convinced benefit from playing in a place where the game matters. In any event, I am enjoying having the game and will continue to do so indefinitely.

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01-13-2013, 02:51 PM
  #236
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It's a WIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! at mile one!

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01-13-2013, 02:52 PM
  #237
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it's a win at mile one!
Good on the caps. I'm happy for the fans too, they needed a win at home

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01-13-2013, 02:53 PM
  #238
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Holy crap, this crowd, it feels like a playoff victory

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01-13-2013, 02:55 PM
  #239
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It's a WIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! at mile one!
Awesome! From your posts, it sounds like it was a hard fought win.

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01-13-2013, 03:10 PM
  #240
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Holy crap, this crowd, it feels like a playoff victory
It sounded like it for sure

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01-13-2013, 03:13 PM
  #241
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I disagree with this somewhat.

I believe winning IS important to TN at the AHL level for a couple of reasons:

1> The goal of any good organization is to make it's developmental system self-sufficient. If you can cook your own prospects at no cost to you that is just good business sense. In order to break even at the AHL level you need to have a product that will attract people. Whether you run the team yourself or lease it out to someone, that person needs to be able to make some money to make it viable. The best way to attract people long term is by having a competitive team.

2> The best way to become a winner is by winning. If our prospects are continually losing at the AHL level that is what they learn to do. They are in the culture of losing, and they don't know how to win. How to handle the pressure of competing in the playoffs and having success. If you are breeding winners in your farm system, chances are that will transfer over to the NHL. These guys will be able to draw from their experiences when they are faced with them in the show.

It is a balancing act for sure, and the number one job for the AHL is to develop talent for the NHL. However, part of that is providing an environment where prospects can be successful. This is where the fact that the AHL is also a pro entertainment league is a real benefit. The players have the same pressures as they do in the NHL. From fans, the media. Having vets on your AHL club help by stabilizing the product, bringing experience into the equation to help the team win, and by mentoring the young prospects, showing them how to be pros and teaching lessons that coaches and GM's simply can't.

So, Holden, I think you are looking at this a little to simply. I think success at the AHL level and NHL player development go very hand in hand.

As for our friends who are fans of the Ice Caps: I am sorry you've had such a struggle watching the team this year. I know as an ex Oiler fan what it feels like. Hopefully with shrewd drafting and player acquisitions we can make a team you can be proud of in St. John's. I think with the track record of True North it's just a matter of time.
I don't agree. There is zero correlation between winning at AHL level and winning at NHL level.

1) Agreed on the prospects coming through. That's what you want, prospects playing key roles and winning, ideally. However St. John's is peanuts. It quite honestly does not matter whether they make money or not. It does not matter.

2) Agreed...at the NHL level. At the minor league level there is no difference between players coming from winning minor league teams versus winning minor league, there's is no difference outside of talent level. This culture and "clutch" and "winners" thing are things made up by fans. Take Manchester...for years they were the most unclutch team ever...great regular seasons, blew up losing in first round of AHL playoffs, for years and years...players graduate to NHL, then are NHL playoff warriors. Or how about Hershey, dominant in AHL playoffs, Washington sucks in playoffs. Or how about the vaulted Detroit system in which develops so much NHL talent...yet finishes out of playoffs or near bottom of the league every single year...I could go on and on.

I am not looking at it too simply at all. I am ignoring made up factors. Learning to adjust to pro game, learning to act like a professional, yes that is important. You need veterans there to do that. Again, I point to Manchester. They're vets are guys like Cliche and Campbell...guys who have come through the system, yet still maintain NHL potential. THAT'S where I want St. John's at. Good AHL programs have no need of Jaffray, Ramsay, etc.

But winning is merely a bonus. They is no magic formula winning the AHL helps them to learn at the NHL. Many of these guys come from championship level teams at junior, yet they must learn again how to win at AHL (and NHL also) levels. That can only be done at the level. You don't learn to win a Stanley Cup in the Calder Cup playoffs.

I'm not saying you drop the prospects in completely alone and let them sink or swim. You need veterans tastefully spread throughout your lineup (and once you get to a certain level your older prospects can become those veterans), to teach the youngsters the pro game, and obviously winning or being competitive is nice, but it is far from the #1 goal, it is a bonus, as I have said there is no correlation between winning at AHL level and developing winning NHL teams.

It's not like around parading this fact. Of course TNSE is going to preach winning at all levels, and the prospects are all going to continually hear and want to win at AHL level. But deep in TNSE, they should only make the decisions for AHL that place development #1, winning #2. Obviously they would like to have a winning atmosphere, but ONLY if it does not hurt development in any way.

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01-13-2013, 03:17 PM
  #242
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It wouldn't surprise me that with the increasing level of professionalism within the AHL, correlation between AHL and NHL performance could actually become statistically significant in due time.

I would also like to browse through some of the reports on this, like, variables being used, there has actually been academic research into this subject?

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01-13-2013, 03:27 PM
  #243
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Great game overall.

Petiot was great despite the hand on puck...

Clark deserves a hand.The crowd was wild for a Sunday.

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01-13-2013, 03:28 PM
  #244
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It wouldn't surprise me that with the increasing level of professionalism within the AHL, correlation between AHL and NHL performance could actually become statistically significant in due time.

I would also like to browse through some of the reports on this, like, variables being used, there has actually been academic research into this subject?
I'll look into it. I know I have done some very informal looking into it in the past, and there was nothing to tie them together. Supported by Kings GM Dean Lombardi (who has successfully built two great farm systems in both LA and SJS, a whole heck of a lot of the success of the Sharks 05-12 can be attributed to him), who has stated this many times.

But I'm tired of being the bad guy. Nice to see St. John's pull out the home win for a great crowd! Glad to see O'Dell continuing his development he is a player I like.

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01-13-2013, 03:29 PM
  #245
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Trust me, you won't find a guy that wants Gagnon out of the organization more than me. He is useless, but the Jets have no other options with him, he is under contract until the end of the season.

I think O'Neill is a typical prospect, ups and downs, but still has some upside. Sol, meh.

I understand that you want your team to win. Sorry if I come off as harsh, I am not advocating intentionally having a losing team, or intentionally losing games. But the cold harsh truth is winning in the AHL means little to nothing. 70% of these teams are owned by NHL clubs, and their sole purpose is to develop prospects, with winning being a secondary goal. While it'd be nice to win in St. John's, it's been proven there's little to no correlation between winning in AHL and good NHL development.

I am just unsure of what you expect to be done. Moves from outside the organization are not the answer, O'Neill, Pasquale, Telegin, Klingberg need to get better. They need to lead the team and start winning games.

Again, I am hoping in a year or two the team will start to be competitive without the need for guys like Ramsay, Jaffray, King, etc, and they will be like Manchester, who uses 97% NHL prospects on their team while still being a very solid team. But that will take a couple of years yet at least.

I understand being frustrated about your team not winning, whom you are paying good money to go see. I do. But right now is probably one of the best times for St. John's will a bunch of young guys playing key minutes. That's what is good about AHL, watching the stars of tomorrow.
I want to win.We have never a winner here in St.John's, town is snakebit.

O'Neill could end up like Chariot if he goes to the ECHL and gets increased minutes.Sees some flahes in his game.

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01-13-2013, 03:32 PM
  #246
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I want to win.We have never a winner here in St.John's, town is snakebit.

O'Neill could end up like Chariot if he goes to the ECHL and gets increased minutes.Sees some flahes in his game.
I want you guys to win as well. I just don't want to lose sight of the main goal.

Don't think O'Neill is heading the ECHL. He is playing fairly consistent minutes there it seems to me, and he is ahead of Sol and Chiarot on the depth chart, I believe. AHL is the place to work out those kinks in his game. He's an older prospect as well, he needs to step up or step out, he is not 20 like a Chiarot.

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01-13-2013, 03:35 PM
  #247
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I want you guys to win as well. I just don't want to lose sight of the main goal.

Don't think O'Neill is heading the ECHL. He is playing fairly consistent minutes there it seems to me, and he is ahead of Sol and Chiarot on the depth chart, I believe. AHL is the place to work out those kinks in his game. He's an older prospect as well, he needs to step up or step out, he is not 20 like a Chiarot.
Chariot has been better then O'Neill this year.Chariot has been the best D man not named Meech or Redmond.

Any word on Arsene?He didn't play today.

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01-13-2013, 07:15 PM
  #248
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Good on the IceCaps to win a home game, finally.

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01-14-2013, 12:51 PM
  #249
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Originally Posted by Holden Caulfield View Post
I understand that you want your team to win. Sorry if I come off as harsh, I am not advocating intentionally having a losing team, or intentionally losing games. But the cold harsh truth is winning in the AHL means little to nothing. 70% of these teams are owned by NHL clubs, and their sole purpose is to develop prospects, with winning being a secondary goal. While it'd be nice to win in St. John's, it's been proven there's little to no correlation between winning in AHL and good NHL development.

I am just unsure of what you expect to be done. Moves from outside the organization are not the answer, O'Neill, Pasquale, Telegin, Klingberg need to get better. They need to lead the team and start winning games.

Again, I am hoping in a year or two the team will start to be competitive without the need for guys like Ramsay, Jaffray, King, etc, and they will be like Manchester, who uses 97% NHL prospects on their team while still being a very solid team. But that will take a couple of years yet at least.

I understand being frustrated about your team not winning, whom you are paying good money to go see. I do. But right now is probably one of the best times for St. John's will a bunch of young guys playing key minutes. That's what is good about AHL, watching the stars of tomorrow.
Holden expreses his opinion very well here. I tend to disagree with him and I think building a winning attitude, along with not accepting losing are things that can be learned and conditioned into players at the AHL level. I think TNSE operates in this paradigm.

Having said that I would not be surprised if many in Winnipeg shared Holden's view on this issue.

In a similar vein, many Caps fans have kept their old NHL allegiances. On any given night the rink is filled with people who are Toronto, Montreal, Boston, Detroit fans. They mainly cheer for the home team when their NHL teams' AHL affiliate comes to town, but not always. Many of these fans are pretty indifferent to what is happening with the Jets.

After being die-hard for the Leafs for several decades, I follow and will continue to follow the Jets more than any other NHL team, but not so fanatically. Don't get me wrong I hope the Jets do well on and off the ice, you have a good run of it, and NEVER lose the NHL again.

I have come to realize that I will from now on be primarily a fan of any pro team with St. John's on their crest.

Looking back on it I would have preferred that Mr. Williams purchased one of the 30%of AHL teams that are not owned by their NHL affililiates, as then we could not lose the team on a whim after ownership or management changes at the NHL level like happened in 2005.

Mr. Williams seems to be quite happy in not running the hockey side of things and he seems to be happy going the way he did. From everything TNSE says they are happy as well, but they would be expected to say that anyway. I think that TNSE and the St. John's market are a good match, and choosing to not buy a team, he could not have partnered with a better organization.


I try to be a glass half full kind of guy, I'll not dwell on the possibility on losing the team, I'll keep filling my seat, supporting the team no matter how well the do on the ice.

I hope we have a good long run of it with TNSE, but I can't get too attached to the Jets. Once bitten, twice shy....

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01-14-2013, 12:57 PM
  #250
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TNSE espouses character as a core belief, and are loyal almost to a fault. Chipman knows what it means to a community that has lost its team and identity, only to reclaim it later. That is why I don't think the IceCaps will be going anywhere anytime soon. Other than the travel, it seems to be a perfect match between the two communities.

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