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Dionne vs Esposito (without Orr)

View Poll Results: Dionne vs Espo (without Orr)
Dionne 11 32.35%
Esposito 23 67.65%
Voters: 34. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
12-20-2012, 02:42 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by jack mullet View Post


i would pick Dionne over Espo. in fact I would put Dionne over Lafleur as well. That little french guy never got the credit he deserved, mainly because he spent most of his career in LA. it cannot be denied that the team you play on tends to either amplify your career in the minds of hockey fans, or discredit personal accomplishments.
Man the Mayans got it right, the world is ending as I fully agree with you.

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Old
12-20-2012, 03:19 PM
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I looked this up months ago. I can't be specific, but I think there were 3 line teams until the late 70's.
How many? I checked 1976 and I am getting 16.5 GP per team per game. So it's possible that a couple teams were dressing just 9 forwards but it looks like most werent.

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12-20-2012, 03:49 PM
  #28
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How many? I checked 1976 and I am getting 16.5 GP per team per game. So it's possible that a couple teams were dressing just 9 forwards but it looks like most werent.
Most teams dressed a couple of extra forwards and one extra defenseman. this goes back to at least the mid-50's. Usually they didn't get much ice time unless they were pp or pk specialists. Sometimes they would switch with one of the regular players. Of course they were always available to step in in case of injury or poor play.

An example was Chicago in the mid to late 50's who dressed Skov and Earl Balfour strictly as pkers. I also remember a 62 Leaf playoff game where Litzenberger played LW in a defensive role. When they needed goals late in the game Shack came off the bench to replace him.

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12-20-2012, 06:00 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
I think if we break it down season by season and take into account that there was at least some Orr affect, that at the very least Dionne trumps Phil by quite a bit in the scoring department taking both players (seasons 1-4 and skipping 5-12 Orr years, and then taking their 13-19 seasons).

If one wanted to skip Phils 1st half season Dionne would still come out on top and let's face it no player in modern history scored as much as Dionne did with so little at the PP QB Dman position.

It's not like either player has any advantage in the defensive part of the game department either.
So we skip years 5-12 of Espositio's career? That is craziness... it is pretty much the peak of anyone's career. If you did that to Lafleur for example he would not even be in the HHOF.

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12-20-2012, 06:18 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
It's called perspective and any players teams and environment does have an influence on how that player does, to think it doesn't it pure foolishness to quote you.

Also to make a fair comparison we need to look at as many factors as possible. Just because Howe only scored over 100 points once doesn't make him a great scorer, we ahve to account for era don't we?



Esposito played what 10 games and with how many HHOF guys as well? I think it was 14. Kurri also wasn't playing with bums either on that Oilers team and his absolute peak was indeed influenced by Wayne IMO.




They don't build a great career on their own, but even that's debatable with Reggie Leach and Charlie simmer for instance.

But teammates and linemates certainly have an influence and can enhance even a great players stats and standing in the hockey world.
The better the player the less his teammates or situation affects him. If you are a true HHOF talent... like Kurri.. that is what you are even without Gretzky.. maybe a few less points but in ANY situation Kurri is going to be a truly exceptional player. The 2nd tier players like Simmer and Leach will succeed to lesser effect without the stars (and health and non-alcoholism). The truly one dimensional or weak players that have a very short term peak like Brown or Blair MacDonald benefit the most from their situation with great players.

This is like a basic rule. HHOF player's are least affected by situation. Great player's are a little more affected but great nonetheless. Very good player's like say Tikkanen are extremely effective in great situations... like on the highest scoring line of the era with Kurri and Gretzky... or later as he was the best player on the Oilers for significant stretches after Gretzky left, even with Messier and Kurri still on the team.

The better a player is the least effect a player's situation has on their point totals and their overall success. Henri Richard might have scored more as a #1 centre but he wasn't most of his career and he is still an all-time great forward.

The Pizza line in Ottawa... Alfredsson-Spezza and Heatley... all benefited from having 3 superstars on a line... but not by as much ad one would think they did... maybe 10-15% more production.

Think of Bossy.... he is a true superstar... Trottier has an injury and an off year and Brent Sutter become his centre over Trottier... and has a huge outlier season. Bossy's production is largely unaffected.. the far less superior player has a peak year. But Brent Sutter is a decent player with some other good seasons. He just got to move up fromt he 2nd or third line to the top line for most of a season. The better player is not much affected in production.

The better the player the less effect linemates and team have on production. Dionne and Esposito are among the very best player's of their eras (which largely overlap) and also among the best scorers EVER... The amount of their success which can be laid on situation is rather minimal. I think the difference between being on a team with lots of fans and publicity like the Bruins vs as West conference team that never went deep has a bigger effect on the reputations of each... not their actual success on the ice or production or value as players. A perception that Esposito was better is more real then Esposito actually having been better. But IMO Esposito not only had the better reputation but was the better player as well.

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12-20-2012, 08:29 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Sens Rule View Post
The better the player the less his teammates or situation affects him. If you are a true HHOF talent... like Kurri.. that is what you are even without Gretzky.. maybe a few less points but in ANY situation Kurri is going to be a truly exceptional player. The 2nd tier players like Simmer and Leach will succeed to lesser effect without the stars (and health and non-alcoholism). The truly one dimensional or weak players that have a very short term peak like Brown or Blair MacDonald benefit the most from their situation with great players.

This is like a basic rule. HHOF player's are least affected by situation. Great player's are a little more affected but great nonetheless. Very good player's like say Tikkanen are extremely effective in great situations... like on the highest scoring line of the era with Kurri and Gretzky... or later as he was the best player on the Oilers for significant stretches after Gretzky left, even with Messier and Kurri still on the team.

The better a player is the least effect a player's situation has on their point totals and their overall success. Henri Richard might have scored more as a #1 centre but he wasn't most of his career and he is still an all-time great forward.

The Pizza line in Ottawa... Alfredsson-Spezza and Heatley... all benefited from having 3 superstars on a line... but not by as much ad one would think they did... maybe 10-15% more production.

Think of Bossy.... he is a true superstar... Trottier has an injury and an off year and Brent Sutter become his centre over Trottier... and has a huge outlier season. Bossy's production is largely unaffected.. the far less superior player has a peak year. But Brent Sutter is a decent player with some other good seasons. He just got to move up fromt he 2nd or third line to the top line for most of a season. The better player is not much affected in production.

The better the player the less effect linemates and team have on production. Dionne and Esposito are among the very best player's of their eras (which largely overlap) and also among the best scorers EVER... The amount of their success which can be laid on situation is rather minimal. I think the difference between being on a team with lots of fans and publicity like the Bruins vs as West conference team that never went deep has a bigger effect on the reputations of each... not their actual success on the ice or production or value as players. A perception that Esposito was better is more real then Esposito actually having been better. But IMO Esposito not only had the better reputation but was the better player as well.
Yep. Now if someone wanted to make the case that Kurri benefited from learning from Gretzky like everyone who played with him, I would say yes. but Kurri obviously kept what he had learned as he had an even better season the first year without Gretz than he did the last year with him.

I referenced how Bossy did not miss a beat without Trots in another thread just yesterday

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12-20-2012, 11:32 PM
  #32
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Yep. Now if someone wanted to make the case that Kurri benefited from learning from Gretzky like everyone who played with him, I would say yes. but Kurri obviously kept what he had learned as he had an even better season the first year without Gretz than he did the last year with him.

I referenced how Bossy did not miss a beat without Trots in another thread just yesterday
So i guess Orr didn't have much of an effect on Esposito's numbers after all...

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12-21-2012, 12:08 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Sens Rule View Post
So we skip years 5-12 of Espositio's career? That is craziness... it is pretty much the peak of anyone's career. If you did that to Lafleur for example he would not even be in the HHOF.
Just to be clear we are removing seasons 5-12 for both Phil and Dionne.

It's a usefull exercise to do, look at both sets.

1st look at how Dionne and Phil stack up in the before and after Orr seasons.

Then look at the Orr seasons and the corresponding Dionne ones and ask yourself the reason or reasons why it might be different?

The problem is if one refuses to look or consider the Orr affect.

And at the end of the day it's the small differences that separate HHOFers from each other.


Last edited by Hardyvan123: 12-21-2012 at 12:14 AM.
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12-21-2012, 02:18 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
It's called perspective and any players teams and environment does have an influence on how that player does, to think it doesn't it pure foolishness to quote you.

Also to make a fair comparison we need to look at as many factors as possible. Just because Howe only scored over 100 points once doesn't make him a great scorer, we ahve to account for era don't we?

Esposito played what 10 games and with how many HHOF guys as well? I think it was 14. Kurri also wasn't playing with bums either on that Oilers team and his absolute peak was indeed influenced by Wayne IMO.


They don't build a great career on their own, but even that's debatable with Reggie Leach and Charlie simmer for instance.

But teammates and linemates certainly have an influence and can enhance even a great players stats and standing in the hockey world.
The reality is, a player who is consistently a star year in and year out, will continue to be a star no matter who they play with. Stars are stars, they produce no matter where they are. At the most, a 10% increase in production can be expected if you want to say Orr is responsible for Espo's production. Guess what? Take 10% away and Espo is still dominating the NHL. Espo was still the BEST player in the 1972 series - with 14 HOFers on the team.

You think Leach and Simmer had great careers? Okay...they were good players but I would never call them great.

Teammates influence is not significant. Nobody turns another player into a HOFer. A player has to be great to produce at great levels consistently. You can get a player who has one great season and comes back to earth but, the real stars, the players who hang around the top 5 or 7 in scoring several years in a row - they would be stars no matter where they play and who they play with.

Nobody builds a HOF career because of the teammates they had.

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12-21-2012, 09:29 AM
  #35
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The reality is, a player who is consistently a star year in and year out, will continue to be a star no matter who they play with. Stars are stars, they produce no matter where they are. At the most, a 10% increase in production can be expected if you want to say Orr is responsible for Espo's production. Guess what? Take 10% away and Espo is still dominating the NHL.
If we look at what Espo did before and after Orr, it extremely debatable that he has a HHOF career period. Maybe a 5% chance if he wakes up and gets going.


Quote:
Espo was still the BEST player in the 1972 series - with 14 HOFers on the team.
People forget that Orr and hull weren't in those series and frankly the Canadian players didn't really perform all that well either.

There was a bit of a in between phase of top forwards with most of Canada's young forwards breaking out in the next 2 seasons.

Quote:
You think Leach and Simmer had great careers? Okay...they were good players but I would never call them great.
They were great goal scorers for shot periods of time, just lacked longevity and while Clarke and Dionne are great players they are not Bobby Orr.

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Teammates influence is not significant.[/B] Nobody turns another player into a HOFer.
Sorry but guys like Bobby Orr and Wayne Gretzky are significant in my books and it's pretty clear that Orr had a great amount of influence on Phil. Much more than the 10% that you allude to IMO.


Quote:
A player has to be great to produce at great levels consistently. You can get a player who has one great season and comes back to earth but, the real stars, the players who hang around the top 5 or 7 in scoring several years in a row - they would be stars no matter where they play and who they play with.

Nobody builds a HOF career because of the teammates they had.
Phil wasn't a star on thsoe black Hawk teams and Ratelle aged better than he did.

Teammates actually do matter for the most part when it comes to production and in Phil's case his playoff resume.

Phil's playoff line before Orr is 31-4-4-8 but sure he was on a HHOF path right?

Heck that is worse than Dionne.

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12-21-2012, 10:21 AM
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It would still be Esposito for me.

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12-21-2012, 10:54 AM
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It would still be Esposito for me.
Agreed. This board voted him 1 of the 20 greatest players of all time and Dionne was #50. Let's get back to discussing hockey history, not this shoulda coulda woulda what if stuff.


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12-21-2012, 04:52 PM
  #38
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So i guess Orr didn't have much of an effect on Esposito's numbers after all...
I can't tell if you're being sarcastic, or if you just drew a conclusion based on someone's opinion.

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Agreed. This board voted him 1 of the 20 greatest players of all time and Dionne was #50. Let's get back to discussing hockey history, not this shoulda coulda woulda what if stuff.
that was 3 years ago - let's see what happens this time around.

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12-21-2012, 06:12 PM
  #39
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People forget that Orr and hull weren't in those series and frankly the Canadian players didn't really perform all that well either.

There was a bit of a in between phase of top forwards with most of Canada's young forwards breaking out in the next 2 seasons.


Hardy, I agree with you here. It is incredible how much mileage Espo gets out of that 72 series. Canada was crap in that series. They were supposed to wipe the Soviets even without Hull and Orr. Espo was expected to play well.

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12-21-2012, 08:12 PM
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Glen Skov

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Originally Posted by pappyline View Post
Most teams dressed a couple of extra forwards and one extra defenseman. this goes back to at least the mid-50's. Usually they didn't get much ice time unless they were pp or pk specialists. Sometimes they would switch with one of the regular players. Of course they were always available to step in in case of injury or poor play.

An example was Chicago in the mid to late 50's who dressed Skov and Earl Balfour strictly as pkers. I also remember a 62 Leaf playoff game where Litzenberger played LW in a defensive role. When they needed goals late in the game Shack came off the bench to replace him.
Glen Skov was also used for specific defensive assignments - covering Jean Beliveau. The Canadiens called on him during the 1960-61 seaon for a few games for the same reason.

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12-21-2012, 09:38 PM
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...that was 3 years ago - let's see what happens this time around.
The HoH voters have too much integrity to jump Dionne 30 spots over Esposito. We're talking about players who retired a long time ago. This is not a Jagr or Selanne improving their stock from 2009-2012 situation here.


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12-21-2012, 10:09 PM
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The HoH voters have too much integrity to jump Dionne 30 spots over Esposito. We're talking about players who retired a long time ago. This is not a Jagr or Selanne improving their stock from 2009-2012 situation here.
Records continually get better, especially with google archives.

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12-22-2012, 12:45 AM
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... Canada was crap in that series. They were supposed to wipe the Soviets even without Hull and Orr. ...
The only reason Canadian fans expected to win easily is that they had no idea how good the Russians were. Also, the Russians had a great conditioning program that was years ahead of it's time and the NHL players did not work out at all before training camp opened. Actually the Canadians played great in the 2nd Russian half of the series and beat a great team that featured some of the greatest hockey players of all time who made the HoH's top 70 players of all time.

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12-22-2012, 12:55 AM
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Records continually get better, especially with google archives.
Please click there > http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1310681

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12-22-2012, 01:03 AM
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That thread discusses the fact that there was only one Montreal newspaper available. Considering neither Dionne nor Esposito played in Montreal, not sure of the relevance. And I never said records were perfect. Simply that they've gotten better.

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12-22-2012, 01:10 AM
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The HoH voters have too much integrity to jump Dionne 30 spots over Esposito. We're talking about players who retired a long time ago. This is not a Jagr or Selanne improving their stock from 2009-2012 situation here.
I'm not saying Dionne will end up ahead of Espo. In fact, I guarantee it won't happen, and I won't even have Dionne ahead of Espo on my own submission. But they will be a lot closer. I would not be surprised if the gap was more than cut in half.

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12-22-2012, 10:30 PM
  #47
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I'm not saying Dionne will end up ahead of Espo. In fact, I guarantee it won't happen, and I won't even have Dionne ahead of Espo on my own submission. But they will be a lot closer. I would not be surprised if the gap was more than cut in half.
It all depends on 2 things IMO

1) how Espostio is treated with the Orr affect, and going by some recent threads it won't hurt him nearly as much as the evidence suggests and

2) How much stock people put in playoff performance versus regular season.

I'm never sure how much stock to put into playoff performance as it's largely team and luck driven outside of the absolute best players.

IMO regular season is a more even template to evaluate and compare players as schedules and opponents are more or less the same for each team and player over time while playoff opponents and opportunities are so much more variable.

Personally the little Beaver gets too little credit for his regular season success and longevity with, on average, not the best line mates and definitely is the highest goal scorer with the worst support of a PP or offensive QB on the D.

Is there anyone in the top 25 (or even top 50) of goal scoring with a worse supporting cast, in terms of offensive support, from the blue line over their careers?

I certainly don't see it and we are talking about a guy who is 4th all time in goal scoring and had 9 top 10 finishes in goal scoring, and 7 times top 5 in points, in a 21 or less team NHL.

Marcel has his faults as a player but he also most certainly didn't have anything close to a Bobby Orr affect either.

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12-22-2012, 11:28 PM
  #48
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Montreal Newspapers

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That thread discusses the fact that there was only one Montreal newspaper available. Considering neither Dionne nor Esposito played in Montreal, not sure of the relevance. And I never said records were perfect. Simply that they've gotten better.

Only one newspaper is available via Google Archives the rest are available elsewhere. Both Esposito and Dionne played against the Jr Canadiens in the OHA, the beat writers from the English and French papers covered them regularly.

During their NHL careers they were covered extensively, especially Dionne who is from Drummondville, and ryral Quebec players get a lot of press as the competition for readership was fierce.

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12-23-2012, 12:56 AM
  #49
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Dionne is the most underrated player there ever was IMO.

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12-23-2012, 01:19 AM
  #50
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Dionne is the most underrated player there ever was IMO.
That's mainly due to his lack of production and lack of team success in the playoffs.

He may be one of the most underrated players, but that's a matter of opinion of course. However, I think an interesting comparison would be Dionne vs. Selanne. Should Dionne be ranked significantly higher than Selanne, and if so, why?

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