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Off-Season Madness the 15th: How's that dream job now, Farrell?

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12-26-2012, 07:15 PM
  #876
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I never knew Devon White was such a valuable player for the jays in 93. 6.0 WAR? Wow, I never knew good defence could bring your WAR up that much. His bat wasn't the greatest, it wasn't bad, but not a game changing bat by any means.

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12-26-2012, 07:15 PM
  #877
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No doubt. They aren't one of the favorites but that rotation could carry the team on its own.
but it would be unlikely wouldn't you say

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12-26-2012, 07:23 PM
  #878
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I never knew Devon White was such a valuable player for the jays in 93. 6.0 WAR? Wow, I never knew good defence could bring your WAR up that much. His bat wasn't the greatest, it wasn't bad, but not a game changing bat by any means.
That's what being the best CF in franchise history means. Elite elite elite CF'er. Premium positions like CF require a balance between glove and bat. You don't have to have a great bat if you can make up for it with your range and preventing doubles and home runs along with a good bat you're golden. Take first base..the reason why most people want a guy who can bash 30-35 HR's there is because you're not required to have a great glove at that position, so you better make up the value somewhere else and that means bashing the heck out of the baseball, or at the very least having a great OBP.

To have a 6.0 WAR is incredible, V Dub had a 6.0 WAR as well surprisingly enough in 2006. Yikes just looking at his numbers he made over 26 million in 2011 and had a WAR of - 0.8 LOL holy ****


Last edited by Stats01: 12-26-2012 at 07:31 PM.
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12-26-2012, 07:42 PM
  #879
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but it would be unlikely wouldn't you say
No team is likely to win the WS. Any team expected to be in playoff contention shouldn't really be listed as very unlikely.

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12-26-2012, 07:48 PM
  #880
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That's what being the best CF in franchise history means. Elite elite elite CF'er. Premium positions like CF require a balance between glove and bat. You don't have to have a great bat if you can make up for it with your range and preventing doubles and home runs along with a good bat you're golden. Take first base..the reason why most people want a guy who can bash 30-35 HR's there is because you're not required to have a great glove at that position, so you better make up the value somewhere else and that means bashing the heck out of the baseball, or at the very least having a great OBP.

To have a 6.0 WAR is incredible, V Dub had a 6.0 WAR as well surprisingly enough in 2006. Yikes just looking at his numbers he made over 26 million in 2011 and had a WAR of - 0.8 LOL holy ****
And he is still owed 42M over the next 2 years on a team that has no room for him in the OF.

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12-26-2012, 08:32 PM
  #881
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That's what being the best CF in franchise history means. Elite elite elite CF'er. Premium positions like CF require a balance between glove and bat. You don't have to have a great bat if you can make up for it with your range and preventing doubles and home runs along with a good bat you're golden. Take first base..the reason why most people want a guy who can bash 30-35 HR's there is because you're not required to have a great glove at that position, so you better make up the value somewhere else and that means bashing the heck out of the baseball, or at the very least having a great OBP.

To have a 6.0 WAR is incredible, V Dub had a 6.0 WAR as well surprisingly enough in 2006. Yikes just looking at his numbers he made over 26 million in 2011 and had a WAR of - 0.8 LOL holy ****
Just curious, why is center field considered such a valuable defensive position? From watching games myself (I could be dead wrong) it seems balls are hit to left or right field more often than straight away center. If a team had an elite left and an elite right fielder, couldn't they make up for a crappy center fielder since both their elite range could expand into the center fielders area?

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12-26-2012, 09:01 PM
  #882
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Just curious, why is center field considered such a valuable defensive position? From watching games myself (I could be dead wrong) it seems balls are hit to left or right field more often than straight away center. If a team had an elite left and an elite right fielder, couldn't they make up for a crappy center fielder since both their elite range could expand into the center fielders area?
CF have to cover twice as much ground as the other outfielders


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12-26-2012, 09:11 PM
  #883
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1992 Toronto Blue Jays
96-66


white.. .248 17 60 98r 37sb
alomar. .310 8 76 105r 49sb
carter.. .264 34 119
winfield .290 26 108

olerud.. .284 16 66
maldonado .272 20 66
gruber.... .229 11 43
borders.. .242 13 53
lee....... .263 3 39

morris....... 21 - 6 -- 4.04 240ip
guzman.... 16 - 5 -- 2.64 180ip
key......... 13 - 13 -- 3.53 216ip

stottlemyre 12 - 11 - 4.50 174ip
wells......... . 7 - 9 -- 5.40 120ip (14 starts)

David Cone - August 27, 1992: Traded by the New York Mets to the Toronto Blue Jays for a player to be named later and Jeff Kent.
David Wells moved to the bullpen from the rotation
cone...... 17 - 10 -- 2.80 249ip

henke 2.26 34sv 55ip
ward. 1.95 12sv 101ip 79g
p
eichorn 4.35 31ip
timlin 4.12 43ip
hentgen 5.36 50ip

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12-26-2012, 09:14 PM
  #884
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not as great a team statistically as i thought
esp. olerud and timlin, and devo hitting .248 that yr

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12-26-2012, 10:25 PM
  #885
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In the 9th, even though I knew the outcome of the game I was still nervous when Gant & Sanders were on base

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12-26-2012, 10:31 PM
  #886
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WAR doesn't mean heck of a lot... don't let that stat sway your opinion.

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12-26-2012, 10:59 PM
  #887
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Originally Posted by DatsyukianDeke View Post
CF have to cover twice as much ground as the other outfielders
How so? Because the fence is deeper in center? I don't see them covering more west to east area. I remember back in the day when Ken Griffey juniors little brother was going to join the mariners and Ken Sr was still on the team. Ken JR made a joke that him and his little brother would play left and right field and stick the oldman in center because they could overlap his position.

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12-26-2012, 11:19 PM
  #888
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How so? Because the fence is deeper in center? I don't see them covering more west to east area. I remember back in the day when Ken Griffey juniors little brother was going to join the mariners and Ken Sr was still on the team. Ken JR made a joke that him and his little brother would play left and right field and stick the oldman in center because they could overlap his position.
They are generally responsible for whatever goes through the middle gaps. Positionally, they do cover the most grass/turf on the field compared to the other positions.

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12-27-2012, 12:02 AM
  #889
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Any questions about Devon White's defensive prowess will be nicely answered in the 4th inning of tomorrow's (today's?) game

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12-27-2012, 12:14 AM
  #890
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Also because I'm bored again...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Urban Explorer View Post
I never knew Devon White was such a valuable player for the jays in 93. 6.0 WAR? Wow, I never knew good defence could bring your WAR up that much. His bat wasn't the greatest, it wasn't bad, but not a game changing bat by any means.
His bat was pretty underrated (albeit subpar in '92). He put up a .355 wOBA in '91 and a .346 wOBA in '93, which put him in the top 75 in the league for both years. Especially in the 90's, there were very few leadoff men with 15+ HR power, which was a massive advantage.

Also, considering you're using bWAR, his hitting was worth over twice as much as his fielding in '93. The impressive year is '92 where BR has him adding almost four wins of value defensively (which is corroborated by a ridiculous +33 zone rating using fWAR). I'm not a fan of fielding metrics by any means, but from '91-'93 he had a +69 zone rating and the next closest guy was +53, which is just unreal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Urban Explorer View Post
Just curious, why is center field considered such a valuable defensive position? From watching games myself (I could be dead wrong) it seems balls are hit to left or right field more often than straight away center. If a team had an elite left and an elite right fielder, couldn't they make up for a crappy center fielder since both their elite range could expand into the center fielders area?
In theory this is true, but the Jays had below average defenders playing in left (Maldonado/Ward/Henderson) and right (Carter) for the entirety of his prime in Toronto, so the really didn't have that option, especially since back then they needed offense out of their corner outfield when they were just giving away outs by starting Lee/Borders. Most teams don't have good defenders in both corner spots.

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not as great a team statistically as i thought
esp. olerud and timlin, and devo hitting .248 that yr
Olerud had the 3rd highest OPS on the team and Timlin was like the 7th option out of the bullpen. The fact that they started 4 guys with sub-.700 OPS's was the poor statistical part of the '92 team. It was covered up nicely by having the best top 4 in the AL as well as the best 8th/9th inning combo in the league though.

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WAR doesn't mean heck of a lot... don't let that stat sway your opinion.
I don't think WAR is needed to show how great of a defensive outfielder White is. I watch people fawn over Colby Rasmus defensively and laugh. Guy can't get to 90% of the balls that end up on the warning track. I think the only time I saw a ball land in the park over Devo's head was in Game 4 of the '93 series and it was because he mistimed his jump and the ball hit the wall under his open glove.

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12-27-2012, 12:35 AM
  #891
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Any questions about Devon White's defensive prowess will be nicely answered in the 4th inning of tomorrow's (today's?) game
Yea that play probably earned him 1.0 of his 6.0 WAR

I forget but did Devo have a strong throwing arm?

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12-27-2012, 12:37 AM
  #892
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Picture or GTFO.

I really would love to see some real pictures of new Jays jerseys for the fun of it.
I got a reyes jersey aswell how do you posts pics?

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12-27-2012, 12:42 AM
  #893
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Also because I'm bored again...



His bat was pretty underrated (albeit subpar in '92). He put up a .355 wOBA in '91 and a .346 wOBA in '93, which put him in the top 75 in the league for both years. Especially in the 90's, there were very few leadoff men with 15+ HR power, which was a massive advantage.

Also, considering you're using bWAR, his hitting was worth over twice as much as his fielding in '93. The impressive year is '92 where BR has him adding almost four wins of value defensively (which is corroborated by a ridiculous +33 zone rating using fWAR). I'm not a fan of fielding metrics by any means, but from '91-'93 he had a +69 zone rating and the next closest guy was +53, which is just unreal.



In theory this is true, but the Jays had below average defenders playing in left (Maldonado/Ward/Henderson) and right (Carter) for the entirety of his prime in Toronto, so the really didn't have that option, especially since back then they needed offense out of their corner outfield when they were just giving away outs by starting Lee/Borders. Most teams don't have good defenders in both corner spots.


I don't think WAR is needed to show how great of a defensive outfielder White is. I watch people fawn over Colby Rasmus defensively and laugh. Guy can't get to 90% of the balls that end up on the warning track. I think the only time I saw a ball land in the park over Devo's head was in Game 4 of the '93 series and it was because he mistimed his jump and the ball hit the wall under his open glove.
Thanks for the insight, I didn't realize devos wOBA was that high. I guess he would be a massive upgrade on Rasmus in this present day. Cito bumping him from the Leadoff spot in 93 for Henderson was a dumb move based on the stats that year then. ... and it messed up the WAMCO name

I think it was Hendersons rep that bumped devo more than anything because I think devo was even better with the bat in 93 than in 92.

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12-27-2012, 05:57 AM
  #894
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Also because I'm bored again...



His bat was pretty underrated (albeit subpar in '92). He put up a .355 wOBA in '91 and a .346 wOBA in '93, which put him in the top 75 in the league for both years. Especially in the 90's, there were very few leadoff men with 15+ HR power, which was a massive advantage.

Also, considering you're using bWAR, his hitting was worth over twice as much as his fielding in '93. The impressive year is '92 where BR has him adding almost four wins of value defensively (which is corroborated by a ridiculous +33 zone rating using fWAR). I'm not a fan of fielding metrics by any means, but from '91-'93 he had a +69 zone rating and the next closest guy was +53, which is just unreal.



In theory this is true, but the Jays had below average defenders playing in left (Maldonado/Ward/Henderson) and right (Carter) for the entirety of his prime in Toronto, so the really didn't have that option, especially since back then they needed offense out of their corner outfield when they were just giving away outs by starting Lee/Borders. Most teams don't have good defenders in both corner spots.



Olerud had the 3rd highest OPS on the team and Timlin was like the 7th option out of the bullpen. The fact that they started 4 guys with sub-.700 OPS's was the poor statistical part of the '92 team. It was covered up nicely by having the best top 4 in the AL as well as the best 8th/9th inning combo in the league though.



I don't think WAR is needed to show how great of a defensive outfielder White is. I watch people fawn over Colby Rasmus defensively and laugh. Guy can't get to 90% of the balls that end up on the warning track. I think the only time I saw a ball land in the park over Devo's head was in Game 4 of the '93 series and it was because he mistimed his jump and the ball hit the wall under his open glove.
Don't be ridiculous. There was a lot of balls that got over Devo's head, and a lot he wasn't able to catch up to. 1990 I started watching the Jays very close, I didn't even like Baseball until that point. Devo was not some super human, a lot of balls went by him.

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12-27-2012, 07:15 AM
  #895
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Don't be ridiculous. There was a lot of balls that got over Devo's head, and a lot he wasn't able to catch up to. 1990 I started watching the Jays very close, I didn't even like Baseball until that point. Devo was not some super human, a lot of balls went by him.
Perhaps so. And yet there's no doubt who the superior defensive player is between White circa 92-93 and Rasmus now. White had superior range and (more importantly) displayed *far* superior routes and judgement.

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12-27-2012, 08:01 AM
  #896
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Is it just me or did Candy Maldonando look like Yunel Escobar?

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12-27-2012, 09:08 AM
  #897
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Perhaps so. And yet there's no doubt who the superior defensive player is between White circa 92-93 and Rasmus now. White had superior range and (more importantly) displayed *far* superior routes and judgement.
Im not comparing him to Rasmus, im stating in general White had a lot of balls go over his head.

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12-27-2012, 09:42 AM
  #898
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Is it just me or did Candy Maldonando look like Yunel Escobar?
Why are you being so racist?

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12-27-2012, 09:49 AM
  #899
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Is it just me or did Candy Maldonando look like Yunel Escobar?
Yes!!!

I was thinking the same thing, but I figured it was just me.

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12-27-2012, 10:05 AM
  #900
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i missed it
why was sprague hitting
pinch hitting?

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