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The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, and NHL revenues.

1997 expansion approval

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Old
12-28-2012, 06:05 PM
  #201
Tekneek
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Originally Posted by Melrose Munch View Post
Easy in hindsight to say the merger was wrong. AOL was on the rise.
Of course, but nobody can doubt the damage it did. Just like it is easy for all these people to trot out the "Atlanta was a bad idea" tripe as well. Turner Sports had a good track record of properly financing multiple professional sports franchises (whether or not they were successful on the field, they were not suffering for a lack of investment) and there was no reason, at that time, to expect it would not continue. Most of the people talking crap probably think Atlanta Spirit Group was awarded the expansion franchise.

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12-28-2012, 06:18 PM
  #202
KingsFan7824
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Originally Posted by Melrose Munch View Post
Of course. Things like dallas in the southwest are abomination
The sad thing is the alignment they made in 98 was probably their best option if they had to realign. If the league could've put Vancouver in the Pacific, for example, they would have. They couldn't, so Dallas drew the very, very short straw.

I've always been a fan of the bigger groupings. I was a kid in the late 80's when I got into hockey, so I'm sure I'm a little biased, but those divisions had some character to them. To add teams to those core groups, I thought was great. Then they broke it all up, and just started hiding teams in the SE, and the Pacific was a similar experiment. I wouldn't say Washington and LA have been the most relevant NHL franchises in their histories. To break them away from other teams that the Caps and Kings had formed some sort of identity with, and then group them with so many recent expansion and relocated teams, it was just weird. There are now 5 Cup champs from those two divisions since 98 though.

As for the uneven divisions, to that I say just beat the teams that you're in a playoff race with, don't worry about other groups if you don't have to, and there's no crying in baseball anyway.

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12-28-2012, 06:30 PM
  #203
Mayor Bee
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Originally Posted by BradD View Post
Any idiot can tell you Atlanta and a team in Ohio wouldn't work out in the NHL.

Minnesota now has a fighting chance but didn't build properly whatsoever. Their best player is a goalie. Seriously? Martin Brodeur has had talent around him, look at a guy like Ryan Miller as an example. Miller is easily the best player on that team and the Sabres are one of the worst teams currently in the NHL. Florida could honestly beat them.

Teams like Seattle and Winnipeg are no brainers. Look at the NFL Seahawks now, the hardest to play in stadium in the league. I bet the NHL feels silly now.
You're right about the bolded: only an idiot would say that.

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Originally Posted by Melrose Munch View Post
Easy in hindsight to say the merger was wrong. AOL was on the rise.
The merger was originally met with a collective, "Wait, what?" in the business world. What AOL was doing at the time wasn't really relevant; it was universally recognized as an extremely bizarre and needless move. That's not with hindsight, that was at the time.

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12-28-2012, 11:57 PM
  #204
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Originally Posted by KingsFan7824 View Post
The sad thing is the alignment they made in 98 was probably their best option if they had to realign. If the league could've put Vancouver in the Pacific, for example, they would have. They couldn't, so Dallas drew the very, very short straw.

I've always been a fan of the bigger groupings. I was a kid in the late 80's when I got into hockey, so I'm sure I'm a little biased, but those divisions had some character to them. To add teams to those core groups, I thought was great. Then they broke it all up, and just started hiding teams in the SE, and the Pacific was a similar experiment. I wouldn't say Washington and LA have been the most relevant NHL franchises in their histories. To break them away from other teams that the Caps and Kings had formed some sort of identity with, and then group them with so many recent expansion and relocated teams, it was just weird. There are now 5 Cup champs from those two divisions since 98 though.

As for the uneven divisions, to that I say just beat the teams that you're in a playoff race with, don't worry about other groups if you don't have to, and there's no crying in baseball anyway.
I think all the whining about uneven divisions is just strategy on the PA's part; from 1980-1995, all but one year had divisions and/or conferences with a different number of teams;
from the WHA merger until the san jose sharks joined the NHL in 1991, there were 21 teams with one division having an extra team (therefore 1 division had 2 teams miss the playoffs compared to the other 3 having 2) 1993-1995 had the eastern conference having 2 more teams than the west and up until the re-alignment in 1998, there were two 7 team divisions and two 6 teams (6 team ones had an advantage due to less competition for the division title).

The players are merely holding it as a card to play later

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12-29-2012, 01:51 AM
  #205
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Originally Posted by jigglysquishy View Post
6 team NHL isn't so bad. Most of us would be watching hockey with or without a team.
30 is probably too much. They had it right pre-1998 in my opinion with 26 teams. 16 still make the playoffs and the talent is spread around a bit better.

Hockey gets criticized for not progressing back in the day, and they should have earlier, but it wasn't until 1958 that Baseball of all sports was finally west of St. Louis with the Giants and Dodgers moving out west. It was 9 years later with the NHL expansion, so the NHL wasn't THAT far behind I don't think.

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12-29-2012, 01:54 AM
  #206
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Just by the numbers I think 20-22 teams is the best way to go.

Three conferences. 12 team playoffs.


W.I.N.

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12-29-2012, 09:24 AM
  #207
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Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
You're right about the bolded: only an idiot would say that.




Quote:
The merger was originally met with a collective, "Wait, what?" in the business world. What AOL was doing at the time wasn't really relevant; it was universally recognized as an extremely bizarre and needless move. That's not with hindsight, that was at the time.
Yeah, I definitely remember the puzzled reaction to that announcement. It wasn't some huge shock when AOL turned out to be a bad investment.

IMO, Atlanta is a tough nut to crack sports-wise. The NHL's real screw-up was not the Thrashers, but letting the Flames leave. That set hockey back 30 years in the southeast, particularly in the media where the Flames would eventually have ended up on regional broadcasts. As usual, the NHL ended up being the latecomer to Atlanta after the Hawks, Falcons and Braves had developed multi-generational roots in the city. So I can agree to a point that the franchise would always have been fighting uphill. But this idea that Atlanta rejected hockey, that they wouldn't have supported a competently-run team, is nonsense. The Thrashers could have made money, and their presence in a regional hub as part of the Turner media empire could have elevated the NHL. The way it ended is yet another example of the stupid, counter-productive ownership decisions that have plagued the league for the past 60 years.

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12-29-2012, 09:53 AM
  #208
Melrose Munch
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Originally Posted by KingsFan7824 View Post
The sad thing is the alignment they made in 98 was probably their best option if they had to realign. If the league could've put Vancouver in the Pacific, for example, they would have. They couldn't, so Dallas drew the very, very short straw.

I've always been a fan of the bigger groupings. I was a kid in the late 80's when I got into hockey, so I'm sure I'm a little biased, but those divisions had some character to them. To add teams to those core groups, I thought was great. Then they broke it all up, and just started hiding teams in the SE, and the Pacific was a similar experiment. I wouldn't say Washington and LA have been the most relevant NHL franchises in their histories. To break them away from other teams that the Caps and Kings had formed some sort of identity with, and then group them with so many recent expansion and relocated teams, it was just weird. There are now 5 Cup champs from those two divisions since 98 though.

As for the uneven divisions, to that I say just beat the teams that you're in a playoff race with, don't worry about other groups if you don't have to, and there's no crying in baseball anyway.
I agree. But of course wash was having problems. DC has more in Common with NY, Phi, Bos. Same with LA and the coast.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
You're right about the bolded: only an idiot would say that.



The merger was originally met with a collective, "Wait, what?" in the business world. What AOL was doing at the time wasn't really relevant; it was universally recognized as an extremely bizarre and needless move. That's not with hindsight, that was at the time.
It was done to compete to create a juggernaut.

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Old
12-29-2012, 03:29 PM
  #209
Kimota
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Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
- Minnesota doesn't move to Dallas. The NHL remains in a rapidly dying market that had zero interest in supporting the North Stars, revisionist history aside.
- Quebec doesn't move to Colorado. Patrick Roy never gets traded to that team, so they continue to be an emerging team that never gets over the hump. The coming downfall of the Canadian dollar forces the sale of Sakic, Forsberg, and Nolan, and in their place a young Milan Hejduk and Chris Drury are forced into the lineup too soon and never develop into anything. As the dollar plummets and the team flounders, fans begin to stay away in large numbers.
- Winnipeg doesn't move to Phoenix. The NHL remains in a rapidly dying market that had zero interest in supporting the Jets, revisionist history aside.
- Hartford doesn't move to Carolina. The NHL remains in a rapidly dying market that had zero interest in supporting the Whalers, revisionist history aside.
- Expand to Dallas, Hamilton, Milwaukee, and Seattle. Dallas is quickly swamped and fails to gain a foothold in the market. Hamilton plays in an arena without the standard revenue streams, and despite a grassroots following, they hemorrhage money every year and are never able to improve. Milwaukee discovers that, with Patrick Roy having been traded to Chicago (since he wasn't going to Quebec), capturing any of the Chicago spillover market is impossible. Seattle doesn't care, as the Mariners are contending every year for the World Series, the Sonics are an excellent NBA team, and the Seahawks start showing signs of life.
Patrick Roy was almost traded to the Nords in the summer of 95 for Owen Nolan and Stephane Fiset. Serge Savard was canned before a follow up came into place. Given that Réjan Houle traded Roy to Colorado because he admired prospect Jocelyn Thibeault and had high hopes for him, there's no reason to think he would not have traded him to the Nords after the Roy fiasco. Pierre Lacroix would have made him an offer he can't refuse.

And Houle approached Chicago for a trade(that included Belfour) and they refused.

Finally with Roy joining the team, Quebec would have had their new arena.

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Old
12-29-2012, 03:42 PM
  #210
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Originally Posted by Dojji View Post
All the southern failure is in the minds of the Canadian nationalists who don't like how much the NHL is becoming an American league.

I mean think about it from their perspective. Canada is so freaking similar to the US that they can only stand out in so many ways. Hockey is one of them -- only now, not so much. There was always going to be a few bitter enders that resent losing that uniqueness as the NHL tries to go mainstream.
Yea sure all the failure of the southern markets are in the minds of Canadian nationalists. That is why the NHL is such in a healthy state, right? And the financial problems are not reserved to southern teams either, it's across the board in the US. It's about being a realist: go where the demand for hockey is high.

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12-29-2012, 03:47 PM
  #211
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimota View Post
Patrick Roy was almost traded to the Nords in the summer of 95 for Owen Nolan and Stephane Fiset. Serge Savard was canned before a follow up came into place. Given that Réjan Houle traded Roy to Colorado because he admired prospect Jocelyn Thibeault and had high hopes for him, there's no reason to think he would not have traded him to the Nords after the Roy fiasco. Pierre Lacroix would have made him an offer he can't refuse.

And Houle approached Chicago for a trade(that included Belfour) and they refused.

Finally with Roy joining the team, Quebec would have had their new arena.
Wasn't it already determined summer 1995 the Nordiques were leaving. I can't see the Habs giving the Nords their missing piece.

Imagine a similar thing happening now with Carey Price. Can you honestly picture the Habs sending him to Toronto helping fill the leafs biggest hole.

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12-29-2012, 03:52 PM
  #212
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Originally Posted by leeaf83 View Post
Wasn't it already determined summer 1995 the Nordiques were leaving. I can't see the Habs giving the Nords their missing piece.

Imagine a similar thing happening now with Carey Price. Can you honestly picture the Habs sending him to Toronto helping fill the leafs biggest hole.
No in the summer of 95 the Nords were pretty much still in Québec, the transfer occured very quickly in the summer of 96 when nobody was expecting when the owners sold them and they left like thieves in the night.

The Habs were willing to trade with the Nords many times but everytime it's Marcel Aubut that vetoed them. Claude Lemieux was supposed to be traded to them at some point against Michel Petit. Serge Savard explained that in both cases of Lemieux and Roy, it was the other side that said "no".

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