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12'/13' Draft Thread: Offensive flash is a beauty but defensive presence rules.

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12-30-2012, 11:48 AM
  #251
Interactif
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John-Eric Iannicello View Post
At the same time, he's not playing with bums. If it's not a top talent in MacKinnon it's another top talent from the forward group.

I agree though. I think if anything Drouin is, at this point, doing nothing but good for himself. Same of the others you've mentioned.

It's certainly a good year to have a top pick. Fingers crossed.
3 games into this tournament, I don't think this is hyperbole, but Drouin is already on par with Yakupov and Gally, the 2 highest picked fwds in the 2012 draft.

Gally and Yakupov have not been noticible when they have face the better teams thus far, they have compiled points against weaker opposition when they are allowed to use time and space, something that won't be happening against NHL teams or the better teams in the tournament.

Drouin is making me a believer every game I watch him, he's magic.

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12-30-2012, 11:51 AM
  #252
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As awesome as Drouin is, I'm wondering how he'll fit into our Top 6 if we draft him.

Van-Riemsdyk-XXX-Kessel
Drouin-Grabovski-Kadri

Still a small team and missing that #1 centre.

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Old
12-30-2012, 11:52 AM
  #253
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
Grigorenko line was the most dangerous line for the Russians against the Americans. Yakupov was quite invisible.

Grigorenko is obviously a play maker, but his 29 goals in 30 Q games must be more about his linemates lack of finish for him to be taking those shots.

Grigorenko with the right snipers is going to be something to watch.
I thought he was quiet, or maybe this is his style. methodical, there is no doubt he has good ice vision and again I think he will make a good complimentary top 6 C, I still don't see elite #1C in him. He has a tendacy to make dangerous plays and he can get burned, but as with Kadri, I don't hold this against him, since creative players make high more risk passes/plays.

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12-30-2012, 12:47 PM
  #254
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beleafer4 View Post
My updated:

1)Jones
2)Makinnon
3)Drouin
4)Lindholm
5)Barkov
6)Monahan
7)Nuchushkin
8)Pulock
9)Ristolainen
10)Shinkaruk

Pretty similar to the one a few days ago but barkov dropped. I thought he would be more physical in the corners, but his play has been soft which really decreases his appeal to me. Has played more of a perimeter game and I rarely see him screening the goalie. Whats the point of his size if he doesnt really use it?

My only question with ristolainen is his hockey sense. Havent seen him enough to make up my mind on it.
Jones doesn't take top spot for me. Drouin moves up to second and Jones and Barkov drop a spot each.

I have just been totally unimpressed by Jones' defensive game. Its been bad. There's no other way of putting it. He's not only been on for 3 of the 4 goals against the Americans but he's been crucially responsible for two of them. he's lost the puck multiple times in his own end, far more than should be acceptable of someone as highly rated as him. He's taken some bad penalties and blown coverages. His defensive game has been bad.

His offense has been pretty good. Jumping up in the play and making decent passes in the offensive zone plus good shots. But its not enough to be picked one overall in my mind. Trouba has been a much better player in both offensive and defensive aspects.granted he's a few moths older but at still.

Even in the pre tourney game , Jones was men against Finland.and running his mouth about the us being the best team in ufa.

Only points and pluses came against Germany? Come on. Dudes been less than impressive. I can't be the only one who thinks this

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12-30-2012, 02:00 PM
  #255
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Originally Posted by TheFinnishKulemin View Post
Jones doesn't take top spot for me. Drouin moves up to second and Jones and Barkov drop a spot each.

I have just been totally unimpressed by Jones' defensive game. Its been bad. There's no other way of putting it. He's not only been on for 3 of the 4 goals against the Americans but he's been crucially responsible for two of them. he's lost the puck multiple times in his own end, far more than should be acceptable of someone as highly rated as him. He's taken some bad penalties and blown coverages. His defensive game has been bad.

His offense has been pretty good. Jumping up in the play and making decent passes in the offensive zone plus good shots. But its not enough to be picked one overall in my mind. Trouba has been a much better player in both offensive and defensive aspects.granted he's a few moths older but at still.

Even in the pre tourney game , Jones was men against Finland.and running his mouth about the us being the best team in ufa.

Only points and pluses came against Germany? Come on. Dudes been less than impressive. I can't be the only one who thinks this
He doesn't look like a top-3 pick at all. His hockey IQ has been seriously lacking, as most of his mistakes are bonehead decisions. He turns the puck over, and has got caught watching the play on two critical goals in the last two games.

Looks like it isn't just the Finns or the Russian kids who are only putting in decent performances against Germany, and the weaklings, eh?

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12-30-2012, 02:39 PM
  #256
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Drouin has been impressive.

Mackinnon hasn't had nearly enough playing time, in my opinion.

1) Mackinnon
2) Jones
3) Barkov/Monahan/Drouin

The top five-ish picks are going to be tough to make.

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12-30-2012, 03:20 PM
  #257
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dangles McGavin View Post
Drouin has been impressive.

Mackinnon hasn't had nearly enough playing time, in my opinion.

1) Mackinnon
2) Jones
3) Barkov/Monahan/Drouin

The top five-ish picks are going to be tough to make.
MacKinnon has been great with the icetime he has been given. Spott is still making decisions that bother me.

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12-30-2012, 03:42 PM
  #258
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After seeing Drouin play I'd be happy with that as a pick in the top 5 .. I just hope the Leafs get a top 6 pick!

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Old
12-30-2012, 06:01 PM
  #259
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ErnieLeafs View Post
He doesn't look like a top-3 pick at all. His hockey IQ has been seriously lacking, as most of his mistakes are bonehead decisions. He turns the puck over, and has got caught watching the play on two critical goals in the last two games.

Looks like it isn't just the Finns or the Russian kids who are only putting in decent performances against Germany, and the weaklings, eh?
He's had to take a bad penalty or two because he let someone by him and started watching him.

I know a few scouts have posted the same thing as you. His IQ has been called into question. He's got great size and some good offensive moves he's made, like you said, a lot of bone head moves. I dont know what people who have him moving up to first have seen but I haven't seen it.

To me he's looking like phaneuf when he played in calgary. Great offense, but struggling defense; adequate at times but with lots of dumb decisions.

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Old
12-30-2012, 10:00 PM
  #260
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What's the word on Cole Cassels??

Usually sons of former NHL players end up on the radar at some point throughout the year to be a semi high draft pick (1st or 2nd round). I haven't heard much about his play, which makes me think he'll be a 2nd round pick but he's on the same team as Jenner and Biggs. Is he going to be a big piece next year or does he have any sort of potential?

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12-30-2012, 10:07 PM
  #261
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ErnieLeafs View Post
He doesn't look like a top-3 pick at all. His hockey IQ has been seriously lacking, as most of his mistakes are bonehead decisions. He turns the puck over, and has got caught watching the play on two critical goals in the last two games.

Looks like it isn't just the Finns or the Russian kids who are only putting in decent performances against Germany, and the weaklings, eh?
Might be a little hard on Jones, but I'd say he is an offensive d-man, and with all the hype I was expecting a complete game.

Phaneuf comparison someone made might be accurate. I don't love Phaneuf's defensive zone play, but he can be physical, can deliver thundering checks, and is a proven goal scorer.

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12-30-2012, 10:22 PM
  #262
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
Might be a little hard on Jones, but I'd say he is an offensive d-man, and with all the hype I was expecting a complete game.

Phaneuf comparison someone made might be accurate. I don't love Phaneuf's defensive zone play, but he can be physical, can deliver thundering checks, and is a proven goal scorer.
Phaneuf played the same way coming out of Red Deer though.

Huge shot, huge open ice hits and had to improve his defensive zone play.


The question that first comes to mind about Jones/this tournament is how it affects his draft stock. Jones is thought of as a go to guy on that team, even wearing the "A". I know its purely reflective on the rest of the team, but he's playing a ton of minutes and getting a lot of exposure. On the contrary, MacKinnon was playing a lot on the 4th line, until last game against the US.

I guess my real question would be, how much does playing on the bigger stage play into getting drafted??

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12-30-2012, 10:37 PM
  #263
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Originally Posted by showtime8 View Post
Phaneuf played the same way coming out of Red Deer though.

Huge shot, huge open ice hits and had to improve his defensive zone play.


The question that first comes to mind about Jones/this tournament is how it affects his draft stock. Jones is thought of as a go to guy on that team, even wearing the "A". I know its purely reflective on the rest of the team, but he's playing a ton of minutes and getting a lot of exposure. On the contrary, MacKinnon was playing a lot on the 4th line, until last game against the US.

I guess my real question would be, how much does playing on the bigger stage play into getting drafted??
The other question is whether it matters if it is in a losing cause?

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Old
12-30-2012, 10:45 PM
  #264
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This tournament is utterly meaningless when it comes to being a top selection. For top guys who under-perform, scouts know the sample size is too small. It does, however, help raise awareness to some guys who step up and perform well against tough competition, like Niederreiter and Drouin.

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12-30-2012, 10:56 PM
  #265
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Originally Posted by Epictetus View Post
This tournament is utterly meaningless when it comes to being a top selection. For top guys who under-perform, scouts know the sample size is too small. It does, however, help raise awareness to some guys who step up and perform well against tough competition, like Niederreiter and Drouin.
Spot on.

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12-30-2012, 10:59 PM
  #266
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Valeri Nichushkin looks like he will be a good pick listed at 6'3/6'4 195. Very good speed and hands. Not saying we should take him but Burke should really consider this guy because we all know he shys away from the Russians. Guy that size and with that much skill and speed shouldn't be ignored.

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12-31-2012, 12:41 AM
  #267
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Valeri Nichushkin looks like he will be a good pick listed at 6'3/6'4 195. Very good speed and hands. Not saying we should take him but Burke should really consider this guy because we all know he shys away from the Russians. Guy that size and with that much skill and speed shouldn't be ignored.
He is easily in my top 10, and he could fall in the real draft because of the Russian factor.

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12-31-2012, 06:02 AM
  #268
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Originally Posted by LaPlante94 View Post
Valeri Nichushkin looks like he will be a good pick listed at 6'3/6'4 195. Very good speed and hands. Not saying we should take him but Burke should really consider this guy because we all know he shys away from the Russians. Guy that size and with that much skill and speed shouldn't be ignored.
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Originally Posted by leugangen View Post
He is easily in my top 10, and he could fall in the real draft because of the Russian factor.

Did he not sign a 3 year contract in the KHL this year? That certainly hurts his draft position, but could make him a steal with a late first.

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12-31-2012, 06:05 AM
  #269
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Originally Posted by Epictetus View Post
This tournament is utterly meaningless when it comes to being a top selection. For top guys who under-perform, scouts know the sample size is too small. It does, however, help raise awareness to some guys who step up and perform well against tough competition, like Niederreiter and Drouin.

If the tourney is raising some player's stock that means it's lowering others...in other words I respectfully disagree that is utterly meaningless for top selections.

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12-31-2012, 07:06 AM
  #270
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Originally Posted by Epictetus View Post
This tournament is utterly meaningless when it comes to being a top selection. For top guys who under-perform, scouts know the sample size is too small. It does, however, help raise awareness to some guys who step up and perform well against tough competition, like Niederreiter and Drouin.
I disagree entirely.

This is a tournament that is host to some of the very best U-20 players both drafted already and undrafted.

It's a great spotlight for scouts to see how players handle much better competition.

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12-31-2012, 08:00 AM
  #271
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If the tourney is raising some player's stock that means it's lowering others...in other words I respectfully disagree that is utterly meaningless for top selections.
Can you name any guys that became top 2 picks because of their performance in this tournament? If you do a check based on scouting reports of the consensus top 2 picks before the WJC, and then check it after to see what happens, you'll see a huge change in... nothing.

The top selections who play in this tournament are unaffected by the performance of others because the sample size is too small. It's also why guys like Seguin and Duchene, who did not even make Team Canada in their draft year, remain top picks and go on to make the NHL the following year.

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I disagree entirely.

This is a tournament that is host to some of the very best U-20 players both drafted already and undrafted.

It's a great spotlight for scouts to see how players handle much better competition.
This tournament is just as important for patriotism, international hockey, finance, and marketing future NHL players as it is for scouts.

Any scout knows that is hard to quantify the performance of a player against another in less than 10 games to say: player B should be taken over the higher ranked player A because he performed better against better competition.

When you factor in the fact that Jones is playing close to 20+ minutes against the opponent's top lines along with PK and PP time and Mackinnon is playing 4th line hockey, it becomes even more trivial.

Also, many terrific hockey players who are future NHL players do not even get to go to this tournament by virtue of being Canadian, where the competition is elite for roster spots. This is different from other countries who participate, where they would make the team.

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12-31-2012, 08:08 AM
  #272
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As awesome as Drouin is, I'm wondering how he'll fit into our Top 6 if we draft him.

Van-Riemsdyk-XXX-Kessel
Drouin-Grabovski-Kadri

Still a small team and missing that #1 centre.
He'll be center imo

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12-31-2012, 08:57 AM
  #273
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This tournament is just as important for patriotism, international hockey, finance, and marketing future NHL players as it is for scouts.
Umm...yeah. You try telling that to the players on these teams. To them, they don't know the difference and are out there for one reason and one reason only. To win and to be a big part of that.

You're blurring the elements here.

Quote:
Any scout knows that is hard to quantify the performance of a player against another in less than 10 games to say: player B should be taken over the higher ranked player A because he performed better against better competition.

When you factor in the fact that Jones is playing close to 20+ minutes against the opponent's top lines along with PK and PP time and Mackinnon is playing 4th line hockey, it becomes even more trivial.

Also, many terrific hockey players who are future NHL players do not even get to go to this tournament by virtue of being Canadian, where the competition is elite for roster spots. This is different from other countries who participate, where they would make the team.
Any scout worth his salt understands that MacKinnon has been a victim of depth moreso than Seth Jones. They are aware of this just as much if not more than you or I.

I dont think this tournament is a be all end all for scouting conclusion but it is one piece of the puzzle.

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12-31-2012, 09:04 AM
  #274
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Despite the losing effort, Barkov looked pretty solid today. That was a good game. It'll be interesting to see how teams adjust, with everything onthe line.

Unfortunately, the Finns are out.


Last edited by ErnieLeafs: 12-31-2012 at 09:14 AM.
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12-31-2012, 09:06 AM
  #275
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Holy **** I'm liking Drouin

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