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12'/13' Draft Thread: Offensive flash is a beauty but defensive presence rules.

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Old
12-31-2012, 09:09 AM
  #276
Leaf Rocket
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Originally Posted by BertCorbeau View Post
Holy **** I'm liking Drouin


Man we need him or Mackinnon for the love of god lol.

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12-31-2012, 09:14 AM
  #277
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Originally Posted by Bomber0104 View Post
Umm...yeah. You try telling that to the players on these teams. To them, they don't know the difference and are out there for one reason and one reason only. To win and to be a big part of that.

You're blurring the elements here.



Any scout worth his salt understands that MacKinnon has been a victim of depth moreso than Seth Jones. They are aware of this just as much if not more than you or I.

I dont think this tournament is a be all end all for scouting conclusion but it is one piece of the puzzle.
He's not really wrong on what the tournament is. Yeah its about winning but its also all the things he said. Patriotism is huge, just like the olympics. That's one of the reasons guys want to win so badly.

And its totally about finances and marketing. It helps whoever is hosting it , not only for the monetary value of hosting it (short term tourism type benefits) but also for raising awareness about said city/country. Add in sponsors and you have more financial reasons for the tourney.

Plus it easily adds marketing elements for players. Look to eberle for a perfect example of it.

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12-31-2012, 09:27 AM
  #278
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Originally Posted by TheFinnishKulemin View Post
He's not really wrong on what the tournament is. Yeah its about winning but its also all the things he said. Patriotism is huge, just like the olympics. That's one of the reasons guys want to win so badly.

And its totally about finances and marketing. It helps whoever is hosting it , not only for the monetary value of hosting it (short term tourism type benefits) but also for raising awareness about said city/country. Add in sponsors and you have more financial reasons for the tourney.

Plus it easily adds marketing elements for players. Look to eberle for a perfect example of it.
Players want to win because that's all they know. They are professional athletes and are self-interested.

Ridiculous to think players play in this tournament, get stitched up on the bench, and want to score goals because it puts more money in the pockets of Pepsi Cola.

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12-31-2012, 09:43 AM
  #279
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bomber0104 View Post
Umm...yeah. You try telling that to the players on these teams. To them, they don't know the difference and are out there for one reason and one reason only. To win and to be a big part of that.
That's irrelevant to the argument. We are discussing the impact of the tournament on the scouts. Who cares what the players think of the tournament?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bomber0104 View Post
You're blurring the elements here.
I just gave you a list of reasons why the tournament is what it is, which has more to do with just an assessment of players. The assessment of the players has little to do with the big picture of the tournament, as I have been arguing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bomber0104 View Post
Any scout worth his salt understands that MacKinnon has been a victim of depth moreso than Seth Jones. They are aware of this just as much if not more than you or I.
So, in other words, they cannot use this tournament to evaluate him as a player against high competition? What does that say about the tournament?

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Originally Posted by Bomber0104 View Post
I dont think this tournament is a be all end all for scouting conclusion but it is one piece of the puzzle.
And it's a very small piece, just like it's sample size.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bomber0104 View Post
Players want to win because that's all they know. They are professional athletes and are self-interested.
You're view on a professional athlete is severely misguided. However, this has little to do with the argument at hand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bomber0104 View Post
Ridiculous to think players play in this tournament, get stitched up on the bench, and want to score goals because it puts more money in the pockets of Pepsi Cola.
Again, nothing to do with the argument at hand. I have said the tournament is just as important for various other things (see the list). You have taken that to mean what the players are after. This is wrong on a comprehension level.

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12-31-2012, 09:45 AM
  #280
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Originally Posted by Leaf Rocket View Post


Man we need him or Mackinnon for the love of god lol.
Or both


Drouin-MacKinnon-Perry
Lupul-Getzlaf-Kessel
JVR-Grabovski-Kulemin


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12-31-2012, 09:47 AM
  #281
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Originally Posted by Phion Keneuf View Post
Or both


Drouin-MacKinnon-Perry
Lupul-Getzlaf-Kessel
JVR-Grabovski-Kulemin

Drouin-MacKinnon would be our Sedins. Burke owes us.

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12-31-2012, 09:57 AM
  #282
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Originally Posted by leugangen View Post
Drouin-MacKinnon would be our Sedins. Burke owes us.
we can hope for this...we can only hope for this.

**** i want the draft day to come already so we can get this wait over with.

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12-31-2012, 10:12 AM
  #283
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Originally Posted by Epictetus View Post
That's irrelevant to the argument. We are discussing the impact of the tournament on the scouts. Who cares what the players think of the tournament?
You apparently do since you think the tournament is for alterior purposes other than bringing together the best junior players all over the world. You then think that conclusions or information is basically useless based on bringing the best junior players together for a tournament. You seem to favor getting information and conclusions on players based off of larger sample sizes with diluted competition (despite knowing that the better competition awaits these players).

Quote:
I just gave you a list of reasons why the tournament is what it is, which has more to do with just an assessment of players. The assessment of the players has little to do with the big picture of the tournament, as I have been arguing
.

Is what it is? It is what it is for certain parties and certain parties only. The players play the same way that they do anywhere else and that's all that matters. A good scout can make allowances for certain circumstances but they ultimately want to see how players react to a quicker, stronger, more skilled game which you discount incorrectly.

Quote:
So, in other words, they cannot use this tournament to evaluate him as a player against high competition? What does that say about the tournament?
No they can if they give what is commonly refered to as "the benefit of the doubt". How has MacKinnon looked? Has his game changed against teams with better players? That's what they are looking for. And they are comparing to the same draft eligible players who are playing under the same set of circumstances that being increased competition.

Quote:
And it's a very small piece, just like it's sample size.
I disagree. Better competition awaits in the NHL and knowing that these tournaments should be looked to as more important than memorial cup runs or any similar tournament. Regular season tells you nothing since players like Drouin are facing children and many children that wont even make pro.

Quote:
You're view on a professional athlete is severely misguided. However, this has little to do with the argument at hand.
I disagree. I have played sports and know that I try my hardest every time.

Quote:
Again, nothing to do with the argument at hand. I have said the tournament is just as important for various other things (see the list). You have taken that to mean what the players are after. This is wrong on a comprehension level.
That has nothing to do with how players perform and accordingly how scouts should view them.

They could host this tournament 5 times a year to make Pepsi money but the fact is these are usually the best players each country has to offer and they are going head to head both on the same team and against other teams.

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Old
12-31-2012, 10:34 AM
  #284
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Man, we need a top 5 pick in 2013.

My top 5 are...

01. Nathan MacKinnon
02. Alexander Barkov
03. Jonathan Drouin
04. Seth Jones
05. Elias Lindholm

HM: Sean Monahan

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Old
12-31-2012, 10:36 AM
  #285
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morgan Gardiner View Post
Man, we need a top 5 pick in 2013.

My top 5 are...

01. Nathan MacKinnon
02. Alexander Barkov
03. Jonathan Drouin
04. Seth Jones
05. Elias Lindholm

HM: Sean Monahan
That's my list right now as well.

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Old
12-31-2012, 10:57 AM
  #286
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morgan Gardiner View Post
Man, we need a top 5 pick in 2013.

My top 5 are...

01. Nathan MacKinnon
02. Alexander Barkov
03. Jonathan Drouin
04. Seth Jones
05. Elias Lindholm

HM: Sean Monahan

Top six would be awesome, top five amazing.

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Old
12-31-2012, 11:24 AM
  #287
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leugangen View Post
Top six would be awesome, top five amazing.
Hell, I'd be satisfied with a top 8:

1. Nathan MacKinnon
2. Sasha Barkov
3. Johnathan Drouin
4. Seth Jones
5. Sean Monahan
6. Elias Lindholm
7. Hunter Shinkaruk
8. Valeri Nichushkin

So sexy.

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Old
12-31-2012, 11:26 AM
  #288
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Originally Posted by 7even View Post
Hell, I'd be satisfied with a top 8:

1. Nathan MacKinnon
2. Sasha Barkov
3. Johnathan Drouin
4. Seth Jones
5. Sean Monahan
6. Elias Lindholm
7. Hunter Shinkaruk
8. Valeri Nichushkin

So sexy.
Get Shinkaruk out of there and put in Pulock and you got a decent top 8!

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Old
12-31-2012, 11:32 AM
  #289
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 7even View Post
Hell, I'd be satisfied with a top 8:

1. Nathan MacKinnon
2. Sasha Barkov
3. Johnathan Drouin
4. Seth Jones
5. Sean Monahan
6. Elias Lindholm
7. Hunter Shinkaruk
8. Valeri Nichushkin

So sexy.
Same, the talent level is just crazy.

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Old
12-31-2012, 11:33 AM
  #290
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bomber0104 View Post
You apparently do since you think the tournament is for alterior purposes other than bringing together the best junior players all over the world.
Ulterior purposes? Wut?

This is what I said:

This tournament is just as important for patriotism, international hockey, finance, and marketing future NHL players as it is for scouts.

Any further argument was to defend this point, since you are dismissing it completely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bomber0104 View Post
You then think that conclusions or information is basically useless based on bringing the best junior players together for a tournament
I never said 'useless'; I said 'meaningless'. There is a difference. The former indicates that it shouldn't even be gathered (in this case, that the games shouldn't be played). The latter indicates that the games should be played, however, not taken seriously by scouts because of the small sample size.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bomber0104 View Post
You seem to favor getting information and conclusions on players based off of larger sample sizes with diluted competition (despite knowing that the better competition awaits these players).
The competition is basically the same, in case you did not know. A lot of these players are teammates, opponents in junior, or opponents they've faced internationally. The games, however, are arguably more important. To suggest the competition is somehow different or superior than that of Junior is misleading.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bomber0104 View Post
Is what it is? It is what it is for certain parties and certain parties only. The players play the same way that they do anywhere else and that's all that matters. A good scout can make allowances for certain circumstances but they ultimately want to see how players react to a quicker, stronger, more skilled game which you discount incorrectly.
Tell me why these games matter more than say: Memorial Cup, Junior playoffs, 8 game series between Russia and Canada, U-17, U-18 tournaments, etc. (a lot of these players participate in those)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bomber0104 View Post
No they can if they give what is commonly refered to as "the benefit of the doubt". How has MacKinnon looked? Has his game changed against teams with better players? That's what they are looking for. And they are comparing to the same draft eligible players who are playing under the same set of circumstances that being increased competition.
And this is meaningless. Regardless of how Mackinnon performs, he is still going to be a top pick. Same with Jones, Barkov, etc. Just because HFBoards and it's quirkiness when it comes to scouting players thinks that Jones has performed like Ryan Murphy (see GDT of Canada v. USA), does not mean that Jones will drop.

However, as I said in my first post, the tournament does help raise awareness towards players who appear to answer questions about their game. The scouts will then see if this can carry over back to junior and other competition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bomber0104 View Post
I disagree. Better competition awaits in the NHL and knowing that these tournaments should be looked to as more important than memorial cup runs or any similar tournament. Regular season tells you nothing since players like Drouin are facing children and many children that wont even make pro.
I am not sure what you are saying here since: a) some of these players do not make the NHL and b) if they do make the NHL, a lot of them do not turn out to be the huge performers they were at this tournament. This just relates to a scout over-valuing a small sample size.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bomber0104 View Post
I disagree. I have played sports and know that I try my hardest every time.
You've changed your opinion here, going from doing whatever it takes to win to trying your hardest every time.

Trying your hardest is different than doing whatever it takes to win. Many athletes do not do whatever it takes to win, as other reasons, namely, financial take precedence. However, it's hard to say some athletes just give up on trying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bomber0104 View Post
That has nothing to do with how players perform and accordingly how scouts should view them.
It relates to the big picture of this tournament; it is just as political as it is for player performance.

This is just the unfortunate truth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bomber0104 View Post
They could host this tournament 5 times a year to make Pepsi money but the fact is these are usually the best players each country has to offer and they are going head to head both on the same team and against other teams.
The economics of doing this 5 times a year is debatable as the expenses would probably exceed the revenue.

Again, this tournament is only as hyped up as it is because of those other factors I listed relating to politics. It's ultimately not different than some of those other tournaments that I listed. If you think it is different, I would love to hear why.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sundinisagod View Post
After these WJC's I wouldn't be shocked if Drouin has bumped Jones out of the consensus #2 slot...
Based on the WJC, Drouin would be the #1 overall pick. He's performed the best out of all the undrafted players. I don't think anyone can question this. But, as I have argued, this tournament is meaningless.

For the sake of discussion (I don't actually entertain these thoughts): I think if he were to knock anybody out of the top spot, it'd be Mackinnon. You think Jones. However, we will have to wait and see.


Last edited by Epictetus: 12-31-2012 at 11:58 AM. Reason: Added the last post.
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Old
12-31-2012, 11:37 AM
  #291
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I said before the tournament that Drouin may be able to make a run for the top 3 with a big tourney and he's doing just that. Hands and vision are both pretty much elite.

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12-31-2012, 11:41 AM
  #292
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Drouin is the second best Forward IMO. Nuge, obviously first.

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Old
12-31-2012, 11:53 AM
  #293
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Epictetus View Post
Can you name any guys that became top 2 picks because of their performance in this tournament? If you do a check based on scouting reports of the consensus top 2 picks before the WJC, and then check it after to see what happens, you'll see a huge change in... nothing.

The top selections who play in this tournament are unaffected by the performance of others because the sample size is too small. It's also why guys like Seguin and Duchene, who did not even make Team Canada in their draft year, remain top picks and go on to make the NHL the following year.
After these WJC's I wouldn't be shocked if Drouin has bumped Jones out of the consensus #2 slot...

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12-31-2012, 12:40 PM
  #294
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I would be freaking ecstatic if we got drouin.

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12-31-2012, 12:44 PM
  #295
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I would be freaking ecstatic if we got drouin.
Same, but with our luck we'll end up picking 15ish and get someone like Lazar ...

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12-31-2012, 01:05 PM
  #296
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Originally Posted by LeafsMonster View Post
I would be freaking ecstatic if we got drouin.
Same, but we would have to convert him back to centre I would think.

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12-31-2012, 01:25 PM
  #297
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Same, but we would have to convert him back to centre I would think.
Two years tops for him to hit his strides in the NHL. He played a bit of center in the tier before juniors but mainly as a LWer.

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12-31-2012, 01:27 PM
  #298
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Two years tops for him to hit his strides in the NHL. He played a bit of center in the tier before juniors but mainly as a LWer.
I hear some Mooseheads fans saying he lines up at C from time to time. Not sure how accurate that is at all, but certainly encouraging.

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12-31-2012, 01:29 PM
  #299
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I hear some Mooseheads fans saying he lines up at C from time to time. Not sure how accurate that is at all, but certainly encouraging.
He was listed as a C at the beginning of the season as far as I remember.

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12-31-2012, 01:30 PM
  #300
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I hear some Mooseheads fans saying he lines up at C from time to time. Not sure how accurate that is at all, but certainly encouraging.
He is more than capable of playing center, the reason he is playing LW for the moose is because of his dynamic chem with Mackinnon. He could easily have centered the second line if they wanted but the coachs are against it. His strength, defense and just input in that area or overall game is still needed for him to be a top player in the NHL.

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