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12'/13' Draft Thread: Offensive flash is a beauty but defensive presence rules.

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Old
01-06-2013, 03:36 PM
  #476
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
If Ottawa didn't have Ceci and Monahan, they would be in even more trouble. Best 67's of the game.

After 2 periods, Monahan is having just an OK game, always shows good IQ out on the ice. Creates space on the PP with a nice assist and he's effective killing penalties.

Doesn't do one thing great, rather than a lot of things very well. Solid top 7 prospect that if you want a complete player with no holes, this is it.
I wouldn't go as far as saying no holes. He lacks an explosive first few strides, and the skating in general needs work, but he's a good two-way center prospect with solid upside

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01-06-2013, 04:31 PM
  #477
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If you are going to pick the half glass empty approach, why did you not mention Daigle and only Johnson?
Because that was 20 years ago? Weak argument. I mentioned the last d taken first.. A better argument would be Steffan but even that was almost 14 years ago.

Do you honestly not believe a forward is a safer pick than a D?

Lets look since the Steffan draft at the first D and first forward taken

2000:

Heatley 2nd overall
Klesla 4th overall

2001:

Kovalchuk 1st overall
Komi 7th overall

2002:

Rick Nash 1st overall
J-Bo 3rd overall

2003:

Eric Staal 2nd overall
Suter 7th overall

2004:

Ovechkin 1st overall
Barker 3rd overall

2005:

Sid 1st overall
Jack Johnson 3rd overall

2006:

Johnson 1st overall
Jordan Staal 2nd overall

2007:

Kane 1st overall
Hickey 4th overall

2008:

Stamkos 1st overall
Doughty 2nd overall

2009:

JT 1st overall
Hedman 2nd overall

A lot of those D were top 3-4 picks and didn't amount to much. If its close I take a center every single time.

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01-06-2013, 04:34 PM
  #478
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Monahan, 4 assists to key a comeback win for the Ottawa 67's.

Interesting player that some will not see the value in, is not flashy, doesn't have explosive skating or any one noticable particular talent. But again does a lot of things above average.

Does what a Center should, an excellent puck distributer, uses his linemates well, wins faceoffs, a key in this game that tied the game up with less than a min to go, kills penalties, plays the PP.

Didn't have a great game from a top 5 projected pick, but he was all over this win today. Understated player that true hockey ethusiasts will appreciate.

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01-06-2013, 04:36 PM
  #479
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Originally Posted by mapes View Post
Because that was 20 years ago? Weak argument. I mentioned the last d taken first.. A better argument would be Steffan but even that was almost 14 years ago.

Do you honestly not believe a forward is a safer pick than a D?

Lets look since the Steffan draft at the first D and first forward taken

2000:

Heatley 2nd overall
Klesla 4th overall

2001:

Kovalchuk 1st overall
Komi 7th overall

2002:

Rick Nash 1st overall
J-Bo 3rd overall

2003:

Eric Staal 2nd overall
Suter 7th overall

2004:

Ovechkin 1st overall
Barker 3rd overall

2005:

Sid 1st overall
Jack Johnson 3rd overall

2006:

Johnson 1st overall
Jordan Staal 2nd overall

2007:

Kane 1st overall
Hickey 4th overall

2008:

Stamkos 1st overall
Doughty 2nd overall

2009:

JT 1st overall
Hedman 2nd overall

A lot of those D were top 3-4 picks and didn't amount to much. If its close I take a center every single time.
Kyle Turris? That took me all about 10 seconds to come up with another name. 2007 recent enough?

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01-06-2013, 04:49 PM
  #480
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mapes View Post
2005:

Sid 1st overall
Jack Johnson 3rd overall
Drouin is not a Center btw, and your reasoning is really nonsensical. If you think Seth Jones is more a risk than Drouin or Mackinnon is, really I will take the expert scouts that disagree he is as risky as you do. All they do is what 300+ games a year.

What happened to Filatov, he was supposed to be the next best can't miss Center to Stamkos. The draft above had Benoit Pouliot picked #4 overall, you didn't mention him.

Trying to compare those apples to Jones, Mackinnon, and Drouin is so faulty, I don't know why I have to even bother responding. You don't have to be Bob Mckenzie to know these 3 guys are going to be studs in the NHL. Seth Jones, Erik Johnson? Yeah if one is extreme in the half glass empty outlook in life. Still that's one of how many Drew Doughty's or Alex Pietrangelo's.

JT was better than Hedman, that one is a no brainer. Mackinnon is not heads and shoulder over Jones. Pertinent point here.

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01-06-2013, 04:50 PM
  #481
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
Drouin is not a Center btw, and your reasoning is really nonsensical. If you think Seth Jones is more a risk than Drouin or Mackinnon is, really I will take the expert scouts that disagree he is as risky as you do. All they do is what 300+ games a year.

What happened to Filatov, he was supposed to be the next best can't miss Center to Stamkos. The draft above had Benoit Pouliot picked #4 overall, you didn't mention him.

Trying to compare those apples to Jones, Mackinnon, and Drouin is so faulty, I don't know why I have to even bother responding. You don't have to be Bob Mckenzie to know these 3 guys are going to be studs in the NHL. Seth Jones, Erik Johnson? Yeah if one is extreme in the half glass empty outlook in life. Still that's one of how many Drew Doughty's or Alex Pietrangelo's.
Filatov was never projected to be a C, was he?

I was under the impression he was drafted as a Winger

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01-06-2013, 04:55 PM
  #482
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Originally Posted by Phion Keneuf View Post
Filatov was never projected to be a C, was he?

I was under the impression he was drafted as a Winger
C/RW, fwd, he was tabbed a can't miss, there are still scouts today that have told me they all thought he was destined to be a star in the NHL.

There are theories why he never did, but the point is no one expected him to be a bust.

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01-06-2013, 04:56 PM
  #483
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
C/RW, fwd, he was tabbed a can't miss, there are still scouts today that have told me they all thought he was destined to be a star in the NHL.

There are theories why he never did, but the point is no one expected him to be a bust.
Yep that's true. A lot of people on here wanted him badly I remember lol

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01-06-2013, 04:58 PM
  #484
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Always thought Filatov was a winger, never knew about the center part. However he's still sens property

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01-06-2013, 05:01 PM
  #485
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"Filly don't do rebounds"

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01-06-2013, 05:02 PM
  #486
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Originally Posted by Leaf Rocket View Post
Always thought Filatov was a winger, never knew about the center part. However he's still sens property
Seems he's right.

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...d.php?t=527564

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01-06-2013, 05:06 PM
  #487
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
Drouin is not a Center btw, and your reasoning is really nonsensical. If you think Seth Jones is more a risk than Drouin or Mackinnon is, really I will take the expert scouts that disagree he is as risky as you do. All they do is what 300+ games a year.

What happened to Filatov, he was supposed to be the next best can't miss Center to Stamkos. The draft above had Benoit Pouliot picked #4 overall, you didn't mention him.

Trying to compare those apples to Jones, Mackinnon, and Drouin is so faulty, I don't know why I have to even bother responding. You don't have to be Bob Mckenzie to know these 3 guys are going to be studs in the NHL. Seth Jones, Erik Johnson? Yeah if one is extreme in the half glass empty outlook in life. Still that's one of how many Drew Doughty's or Alex Pietrangelo's.

JT was better than Hedman, that one is a no brainer. Mackinnon is not heads and shoulder over Jones. Pertinent point here.
It's generally accepted by the industry that it is more difficult to project defensemen than it is forwards (goalies being the most difficult). It's just tough to measure defensive impact while forwards have results that show up on the scoresheet. Other factors come in to play as well such as forwards producing results faster and providing more value during entry level contracts.

That said, you're right in that you can't compare players to the past. They need to be evaluated on their own merits. It's a testament to just how good a prospect Seth Jones is that he's rated as highly as he is. I'm hesitant to comment on guys I haven't seen multiple times but man does he ever have an exceptional set of tools. No prospect in this draft has a higher ceiling than he does.

As a Mooseheads ST holder it pains me to say it but I have Jones first followed by MacKinnon and Drouin at this point.

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01-06-2013, 05:10 PM
  #488
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I don't know... I might rather have Monahan over Drouin. I feel like Drouin might be getting hyped up too much, but I don't know, he's pretty damn skilled.

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01-06-2013, 05:13 PM
  #489
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Kyle Turris? That took me all about 10 seconds to come up with another name. 2007 recent enough?
Didn't realize he went first

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01-06-2013, 05:14 PM
  #490
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Originally Posted by Phion Keneuf View Post
Yep that's true. A lot of people on here wanted him badly I remember lol
Scouts did their background work on Filatov, he apparently came from a good family, is a character kid, good work ethic, and the skills to be a regular NHL'er at worst. But it just never materialized.

One of the things I heard was he was very close to his family, and he did not want to be apart from them. Regardless of the reasons, it's looking like he will be a bust pick of the 08 draft, a draft with many good players that went after him including D men, Gardiner, Del Zotto, Myers, Shcultz, Karlsson, Carlson, may have missed one more.

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01-06-2013, 05:17 PM
  #491
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Didn't realize he went first
Does it matter? To use one of the examples you cited JT was clearly going #1 over Hedman in 09 and I wouldn't count him out as a bust yet. Erik Johnson is not a good example because he didn't have the exposure of Seth Jones had in the WHL, he was a college player as Brian Lawton was another #1 pick, a Center for those too young to recall. Jones has played well in the WHL, and now the World Juniors, he also excelled at the Under 18 gold medal winning US team. His resume is far more complete.

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01-06-2013, 05:20 PM
  #492
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Drouin is not a Center btw, and your reasoning is really nonsensical. If you think Seth Jones is more a risk than Drouin or Mackinnon is, really I will take the expert scouts that disagree he is as risky as you do. All they do is what 300+ games a year.

What happened to Filatov, he was supposed to be the next best can't miss Center to Stamkos. The draft above had Benoit Pouliot picked #4 overall, you didn't mention him.

Trying to compare those apples to Jones, Mackinnon, and Drouin is so faulty, I don't know why I have to even bother responding. You don't have to be Bob Mckenzie to know these 3 guys are going to be studs in the NHL. Seth Jones, Erik Johnson? Yeah if one is extreme in the half glass empty outlook in life. Still that's one of how many Drew Doughty's or Alex Pietrangelo's.

JT was better than Hedman, that one is a no brainer. Mackinnon is not heads and shoulder over Jones. Pertinent point here.
Drouin is naturally a center dude. Look it up. I believe he is more suited there as well.

I'm just saying Dmen are more risky. If I got to choose a franchise d or c I would choose center.

Actually many had Filatov as a risk. They said his skill was off the charts but attitude and work ethic is questionable. They weren't wrong.

Wasn't a no brainer. It was a 3 man race to first overall in 2009. But, like Nate, the hype started early for Tavares so most figured he'd go first. He's also a better poster boy and Isles had first.

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01-06-2013, 05:24 PM
  #493
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Drouin is naturally a center dude. Look it up. I believe he is more suited there as well.
Define "naturally". He hasn't played center yet with the Moose. 1 or 2 shifts don't count. Nearly every top level prospect played center in minor hockey. I think he'll be able to play there but until he does at the Jr. level lets hold up on making him a slam dunk there at the NHL level.

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01-06-2013, 05:25 PM
  #494
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It's generally accepted by the industry that it is more difficult to project defensemen than it is forwards (goalies being the most difficult). It's just tough to measure defensive impact while forwards have results that show up on the scoresheet. Other factors come in to play as well such as forwards producing results faster and providing more value during entry level contracts.

That said, you're right in that you can't compare players to the past. They need to be evaluated on their own merits. It's a testament to just how good a prospect Seth Jones is that he's rated as highly as he is. I'm hesitant to comment on guys I haven't seen multiple times but man does he ever have an exceptional set of tools. No prospect in this draft has a higher ceiling than he does.

As a Mooseheads ST holder it pains me to say it but I have Jones first followed by MacKinnon and Drouin at this point.
Exactly, this is why if its close, I'd go with the forward.

You have ST? Who do you think is best long term? Drouin or Nate? I honestly think Drouin but will take longer to develop, follow Girouxs path.

What about Barkov? Do you have him 4th? Just curious. I'd love 2 Mooseheads in top 3.

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01-06-2013, 05:29 PM
  #495
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Define "naturally". He hasn't played center yet with the Moose. 1 or 2 shifts don't count. Nearly every top level prospect played center in minor hockey. I think he'll be able to play there but until he does at the Jr. level lets hold up on making him a slam dunk there at the NHL level.
Naturally meaning his whole life until last December when he joined the Moose due to Nate. I've never said it was a slam dunk, I've said I believe or I think. I've said I'd send him back to the Q next year and switch him and see how he does. His style suits center as well

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01-06-2013, 05:30 PM
  #496
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Drouin is naturally a center dude. Look it up. I believe he is more suited there as well.

I'm just saying Dmen are more risky. If I got to choose a franchise d or c I would choose center.

Actually many had Filatov as a risk. They said his skill was off the charts but attitude and work ethic is questionable. They weren't wrong.

Wasn't a no brainer. It was a 3 man race to first overall in 2009. But, like Nate, the hype started early for Tavares so most figured he'd go first. He's also a better poster boy and Isles had first.
So your reasoning is let's pick a guy that is playing left wing for Mackinnon and RNH and excelling at it, turn him into center after he is drafted, all because you are worried that Seth Jones is going to turn into the next Erik Johnson. While ignoring all the expert opinions and or their paths to the NHL are completely different. This is less risk to you?

Again I love Drouin, but your point was you take a C or in this case a maybe C playing left wing over a D man if prospects are close. Jones is going to be #1 on most lists after the tournament, he may even rise higer if the Winterhawks have a good playoff run, and he has now excelled at 2 WJC under 18 and the under 19 tourney.
2 gold medals.

But somehow you see a bust...

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01-06-2013, 05:31 PM
  #497
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Exactly, this is why if its close, I'd go with the forward.

You have ST? Who do you think is best long term? Drouin or Nate? I honestly think Drouin but will take longer to develop, follow Girouxs path.

What about Barkov? Do you have him 4th? Just curious. I'd love 2 Mooseheads in top 3.
I lean MacKinnon. He has so much more responsibility every shift as a center and drives incredible amounts of puck possession and turnovers. Battling behind your own goalline and still having legs to produce at the other end is huge. He's improving every day on his defensive game and has a ++ attitude and motor.

Drouin's hands really are unreal though. Pure offense he has the edge but as I said above I just think MacKinnon has a greater overall affect on a game.

I've seen Barkov play once. My opinion on him isn't worth much.

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01-06-2013, 05:37 PM
  #498
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So your reasoning is let's pick a guy that is playing left wing for Mackinnon and RNH and excelling at it, turn him into center after he is drafted, all because you are worried that Seth Jones is going to turn into the next Erik Johnson. While ignoring all the expert opinions and or their paths to the NHL are completely different. This is less risk to you?

Again I love Drouin, but your point was you take a C or in this case a maybe C playing left wing over a D man if prospects are close. Jones is going to be #1 on most lists after the tournament, he may even rise higer if the Winterhawks have a good playoff run, and he is now excelled at 2 WJC under 18 and the under 19 tourney.

But you see bust...
I like how you reword everything when it was never said. Everybody knows D's take longer to develop and have more risk. I never even said I'd take Drouin before Jones, I said Nate. I said maybe Drouin. But yes I'd switch him back to center. Worst case, doesn't work out but not sure who I'd take, Jones or Drouin. I think Drouin might be better than Nate long term. But Nate is ready for the NHL where Drouin is not.

Nates stock could also go up after the playoffs. Remember he's the number 1 center on possibly the best (or at least top 2) team in the CHL and a great shot at memorial cup. I'd be surprised if we don't win the Presidents Cup. Easily best team in the Q.

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01-06-2013, 05:43 PM
  #499
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I lean MacKinnon. He has so much more responsibility every shift as a center and drives incredible amounts of puck possession and turnovers. Battling behind your own goalline and still having legs to produce at the other end is huge. He's improving every day on his defensive game and has a ++ attitude and motor.

Drouin's hands really are unreal though. Pure offense he has the edge but as I said above I just think MacKinnon has a greater overall affect on a game.

I've seen Barkov play once. My opinion on him isn't worth much.
I agree with the assessment I just find defence is easier to teach than the hands, hockey sence and vision of Drouin (but Nate does have these qualities too, just not as good) but both should do well. If Drouin excels as a center (I'd be surprised if he isn't atleast tried there) that could make the difference. But if he doesn't, Nate should be better. His all around game is very good. Best 2 Mooseheads I've seen, their games compliment each other very well, if somebody does a Burke type move from 99, oh boy.

I was curious because I haven't seen him play. Wasn't sure how Drouin compared to him.

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01-06-2013, 05:47 PM
  #500
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I like how you reword everything when it was never said. Everybody knows D's take longer to develop and have more risk. I never even said I'd take Drouin before Jones, I said Nate. I said maybe Drouin. But yes I'd switch him back to center. Worst case, doesn't work out but not sure who I'd take, Jones or Drouin. I think Drouin might be better than Nate long term. But Nate is ready for the NHL where Drouin is not.

Nates stock could also go up after the playoffs. Remember he's the number 1 center on possibly the best (or at least top 2) team in the CHL and a great shot at memorial cup. I'd be surprised if we don't win the Presidents Cup. Easily best team in the Q.
Not that it matters, but you are from Halifax, I would be a little biased on behalf of Nate and Drouin also I guess, but I am not and I can rate them fairly.

For the record, I think all 3 are slam dunk stars in the NHL, you see risk in Jones. I have these 3 pretty much separated at the mid way point. There are always players coming out of nowhere that may move into the top 10, can't see these top 3 though. Any team drafting any of them will have done well IMO.

I just don't see how you can dismiss what we saw of Jones these past 2 weeks and say he is more risky then Mackinnon or Drouin. To equate it to an Eric Johnson situation is a stretch, as laid out Jones is far more accomplished than Johnson was going into his draft year.

Jones could probably play in the NHL next year, that's what scouts think of him. Even if he never improves beyond this year, he will be a NHL player. Now we all know he is not going to stay at this level, he's going to get better. That's why he is the #1 rated player as the lists will indicate soon at this present time.

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