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12'/13' Draft Thread: Offensive flash is a beauty but defensive presence rules.

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01-07-2013, 07:22 PM
  #626
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Originally Posted by Leaf Rocket View Post
That's an understatement. A lot disagree with him, he gets it right once in a while but then again so does eklund. He does it to be unique nothing more nothing less.
He likes a lot of players posters here like. Gally and Barkov, Scouts rarely agree, I don't hold this against him like you guys do.

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01-07-2013, 07:48 PM
  #627
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Then why listen to scouts? I think he is an excellent evaluator of talent, he had your boy Gally high last year. So if he is an idiot as you say so, then he is wrong on Gally.

You can't pick and choose your battles Ernie, Button loves Barkov last I read, he's an idiot again.

I can atleast disagree with him but still respect his knowledge, this doesn't make me an idiot or him an idiot. It's a difference of opinions, that's a norm when you talk with hockey scouts.

BTW How is your research on US amateur hockey going, I know you need to catch up since you were only born in 85, did you know in 1980 US hockey was on the map on every scouts list after my late friend Herb Brooks coached a bunch of US Collegians to gold at Lake Placid? Scouting has sure changed in 30 odd some years.
I don't care if he ranks my guys high. His general lists are for conversation, and should be looked at as such.

I'll take my experience, my Masters in History, and my NINETEEN EIGHTY FOUR birthdate over what you think you know, any day of the week.

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01-07-2013, 07:49 PM
  #628
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Huh? I'm sorry I understand goaltending is important, but our D was outmatched every game against a good team. It's the reason why we don't have the puck against a team like Boston or Vancouver cause they can cycle on us for days because we don't have a player like Jones?

Let me get this straight. We have ONE line that does anything offensively, and rather that addressing our weaknesses we should improve our only good line? You can make the playoffs with a top line of Kessel and Lupul. You can't make the playoffs with a top pairing of Phaneuf and Gunnarsson.
You also can't make the playoffs with a team who can't possess the puck. And having a center that can play a puck possession game is much more important than a super strong defense. Great defense is good and all, but if they don't have any forwards that can take the puck and keep it, try and see if they can win. For proof, look at Nashville, a team that had superstar defense (until Suter left). And they were good, but they couldn't go all that far because they lacked a top line center (not to mention a top line).

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01-07-2013, 08:12 PM
  #629
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Originally Posted by ErnieLeafs View Post
Is there an asterisk next to AP's incredible year, after having his knee almost completely re-constructed, and dominating as a running back?

He didn't make excuses, and everyone was ready to make them for him, but he STILL stepped up. I don't buy it.
he's the exception. Serious injuries are not simple things that everyone can back from. ANd injuries are different. You can't look at one player, compare it to another and say player B should have done what player A did, especially when the two players are from completely different sports.

It would be pure and absolute folly to not look at Johnson and take his injury into account. It happened, it's entirely logical (and actually a generally accepted developmental challenge in young players within the hockey industry) that it affected his potential. Why in any world would you ignore it? That doesn't make any sense, especially coming from someone who has his master's in history.

Could it be less of an issue then I'm saying it is? Yeah, probably and maybe even likely but you can't outright ignore it.

And it's not like Johnson is old or anything. He's a dman, dman are notorious for taking a long time to develop and he's only played 4 NHL seasons. This conversation could be very different in a couple years.

The reason I pointed this out was merely to caution against comparing Jones to Johnson. I'm not sure the comparison is a completely fair one because of extenuating circumstances.

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01-07-2013, 08:45 PM
  #630
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Most popular comparsion seems toi be M Koivu with perhaps more offensive upside. Not sure that excites me too much, not for a top 3 pick this draft when the worst is Drouin if you are picking better than 3. Drouin looks like a special player to most. Me included.
Well I was talking about Morgan Rielly but I guess I'll speak to the Koivu comparison.

Koivu is a decent comparison. Barkov has a similar defensive game in that its very strong and they are both considered two-way players that are very defensively responsible. They also can play an offensive game that is better than the average 2nd liner. In fact Koivu is a pretty damn good offensive player in his own right.

Since his rookie season of 21 points in 64 games (26 prorated to an 82 game season) which is pretty ok for a rookie in his first season, he increased his point per game pace in the next four seasons.

2006/2007 = 20 goals, 54 points, 82 games
2007/2008 = 11 goals, 42 points, 57 games (prorates to 60 points, 16 goals)
2008/2009 = 20 goals, 67 points, 79 games
2009/2010 = 22 goals, 71 points, 80 games

And then had two, injury shortened seasons, and yet still was pretty effective.

2010/2011 = 17 goals, 62 points, 71 games (prorates to 71 points, 19 goals)
2011/2012 = 12 goals, 44 points, 55 games (prorates to 65 points, 18 goals)

So we're talking about a guy that's been a two-way top line center capable of putting up 18-22 goals, and 65 to 71 points a year. That's not really that bad. Especially if you consider (and you should) that injuries have hampered his ability to possibly break past that 70 points. It's even more impressive when you look at the past 3 seasons he's played on the Wild, and see how devoid of proper offensive talent the team is. Koivu's been 1st in points for 3 of those seasons, and 2nd in the past season (while being injured in the past two).

Toss in Koivu's leadership skills and work ethic and you have yourself a pretty damn impressive player.

And Barkov is supposed to be a very comparable player, just with better offensive potential? AND YOUR NOT EXCITED BY THAT?!?!?! What the hell does excite you? An 80 plus point center with a very good two-way game isn't exactly something you get your hands on often. And that's what Barkov is.

Barkov last season had almost identical numbers to Koivu's draft plus 2 season. I might add that Barkov was only 16 at the time and a rookie in the league. And Koivu was surrounded by more offensively adept players than Barkov currently is (and Barkov looks like he could pass Koivu's draft plus 3 season numbers...in his draft season no less. As an aside, this looks like a pretty effective player the SM-Liiga produced...).

But your not excited by that. Insanity.

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01-07-2013, 08:54 PM
  #631
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Admittedly, I only watched him 2 times (I know, small sample), but barkov looked soft. Big boy, high hockey iq, good shot and passing, but soft.

To the faithful who watch barkov often, is he normally friendly giant? Because as much as kessel needs a big center, he needs a guy who will dig pucks out of corners. Barkov didnt look like that guy, which is why he dropped in my personal rankings.

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01-08-2013, 02:01 AM
  #632
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Originally Posted by Beleafer4 View Post
Admittedly, I only watched him 2 times (I know, small sample), but barkov looked soft. Big boy, high hockey iq, good shot and passing, but soft.

To the faithful who watch barkov often, is he normally friendly giant? Because as much as kessel needs a big center, he needs a guy who will dig pucks out of corners. Barkov didnt look like that guy, which is why he dropped in my personal rankings.
His game doesn't involve seeking out contact, but then again, does Joe Thornton's? He protects the puck well, is a GREAT distributor, and plays in the corners, as well as in front of the net.

How we arent missing that, along with the game that kind of player brings in the other two zones, is beyond me.

But yes, he handles contact fine, he just doesn't look for/dish it out often.

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01-08-2013, 07:45 AM
  #633
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Originally Posted by TheFinnishKulemin View Post

So we're talking about a guy that's been a two-way top line center capable of putting up 18-22 goals, and 65 to 71 points a year. That's not really that bad. Especially if you consider (and you should) that injuries have hampered his ability to possibly break past that 70 points. It's even more impressive when you look at the past 3 seasons he's played on the Wild, and see how devoid of proper offensive talent the team is. Koivu's been 1st in points for 3 of those seasons, and 2nd in the past season (while being injured in the past two).

Toss in Koivu's leadership skills and work ethic and you have yourself a pretty damn impressive player.

And Barkov is supposed to be a very comparable player, just with better offensive potential? AND YOUR NOT EXCITED BY THAT?!?!?! What the hell does excite you? An 80 plus point center with a very good two-way game isn't exactly something you get your hands on often. And that's what Barkov is.

But your not excited by that. Insanity.
Sean Monahan is exactly the 2 way Center Toronto needs, he's a Brampton kid that just wracked up 4 assists this Sunday in a comeback win over Brampton. The more I watch him the more I am convinced he will be a top 6 C, solid #1C where you can plug in with Kessel.

He will go into dirty areas and get the puck for his wingers, an excellent distributer of the puck who has excellent vision of the ice, creates space, is a natural leader, a high IQ player(sound familiar?), he's playing on a pretty bad team this year and his numbers are still very respectable.

Call it a preference, but someone mentioned Finland does not historically produce elite top 6 fwds. Koivu with perhaps more offence does not excite me, as mentioned by other posters, Barkov may be too slow to adjust playing in the NHL, you can improve skating but he will never be an elite skater, he's also a perimeter player from my limited viewings, stays on the fringes, hard to see him and Kessel 2 players being a Burke type player complimenting each other on a line. We are trying to be a bigger and grittier team, Barkov and Monahan bring bigger to the table, but only one is gritty.

Now Barkov can be a good PP guy when he is in the zone set up, I do see this in him. But I would take Monahan, from a more proven producer of NHL talent. He's the best prospect from the OHL, and we know how much Burke and Mo like to go OHL/WHL.

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01-08-2013, 07:54 AM
  #634
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Originally Posted by ErnieLeafs View Post
His game doesn't involve seeking out contact, but then again, does Joe Thornton's? He protects the puck well, is a GREAT distributor, and plays in the corners, as well as in front of the net.

How we arent missing that, along with the game that kind of player brings in the other two zones, is beyond me.

But yes, he handles contact fine, he just doesn't look for/dish it out often.
You know it might be Joe that Grigorenko reminded me of during the WJC. Joe that will shoot more.

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01-08-2013, 07:56 AM
  #635
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Originally Posted by Beleafer4 View Post
Admittedly, I only watched him 2 times (I know, small sample), but barkov looked soft. Big boy, high hockey iq, good shot and passing, but soft.

To the faithful who watch barkov often, is he normally friendly giant? Because as much as kessel needs a big center, he needs a guy who will dig pucks out of corners. Barkov didnt look like that guy, which is why he dropped in my personal rankings.
Good point.

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01-08-2013, 08:07 AM
  #636
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Originally Posted by ErnieLeafs View Post
His game doesn't involve seeking out contact, but then again, does Joe Thornton's? He protects the puck well, is a GREAT distributor, and plays in the corners, as well as in front of the net.

How we arent missing that, along with the game that kind of player brings in the other two zones, is beyond me.

But yes, he handles contact fine, he just doesn't look for/dish it out often.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lo6C6A6e7cg

Remind me of anyone? Hmmm?

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01-08-2013, 08:19 AM
  #637
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But can he skate like him? Comparison could be closer to another leaf drafted in 1998.

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01-08-2013, 08:29 AM
  #638
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But can he skate like him? Comparison could be closer to another leaf drafted in 1998.
Antropov was once considered a top 5 prospect in the NHL by THN (when THN actually did hockey).

Hard to say how he would have turned out if he had 2 knees. Only thing lacking was quickness, not speed. His top end speed was fine, getting there was the issue.

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01-08-2013, 08:33 AM
  #639
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Antropov was once considered a top 5 prospect in the NHL by THN (when THN actually did hockey).

Hard to say how he would have turned out if he had 2 knees. Only thing lacking was quickness, not speed. His top end speed was fine, getting there was the issue.
I liked Antropov as a player, played a tougher game than he was given credit for. Took too many bad penalties however, but had great vision and 2 way play attributes. But it's his skating that reminds me of Barkov that prevented him from being an elite NHL fwd. Had all the rest of the skills.

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01-08-2013, 08:38 AM
  #640
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
Sean Monahan is exactly the 2 way Center Toronto needs, he's a Brampton kid that just wracked up 4 assists this Sunday in a comeback win over Brampton. The more I watch him the more I am convinced he will be a top 6 C, solid #1C where you can plug in with Kessel.

He will go into dirty areas and get the puck for his wingers, an excellent distributer of the puck who has excellent vision of the ice, creates space, is a natural leader, a high IQ player(sound familiar?), he's playing on a pretty bad team this year and his numbers are still very respectable.

Call it a preference, but someone mentioned Finland does not historically produce elite top 6 fwds. Koivu with perhaps more offence does not excite me, as mentioned by other posters, Barkov may be too slow to adjust playing in the NHL, you can improve skating but he will never be an elite skater, he's also a perimeter player from my limited viewings, stays on the fringes, hard to see him and Kessel 2 players being a Burke type player complimenting each other on a line. We are trying to be a bigger and grittier team, Barkov and Monahan bring bigger to the table, but only one is gritty.

Now Barkov can be a good PP guy when he is in the zone set up, I do see this in him. But I would take Monahan, from a more proven producer of NHL talent. He's the best prospect from the OHL, and we know how much Burke and Mo like to go OHL/WHL.
Blow all the hot air you please. He's not a perimeter guy, and he's by far the more skilled player of the two. They have very similar traits, only Sasha's on another level.

I'll take the more talented workhorse everytime. And yes, even if he isn't a "hometown boy". People's boner for GTA kids has to stop. It blinds them sometimes.

The better player is just a preference of mine.

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01-08-2013, 08:40 AM
  #641
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Blow all the hot air you please. He's not a perimeter guy, and he's by far the more skilled player of the two. They have very similar traits, only Sasha's on another level.

I'll take the more talented workhorse everytime. And yes, even if he isn't a "hometown boy". People's boner for GTA kids has to stop. It blinds them sometimes.

The better player is just a preference of mine.
Is it Sasha or Nik 2.0? I'm still waiting for Finland to contend for a gold.

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01-08-2013, 08:59 AM
  #642
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Is it Sasha or Nik 2.0? I'm still waiting for Finland to contend for a gold.
Awesome troll job, fool.

I guess we'll just have to do it like we did with Galchenyuk, right?

Suit yourself..... Lol....

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01-08-2013, 09:05 AM
  #643
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Awesome troll job, fool.

I guess we'll just have to do it like we did with Galchenyuk, right?

Suit yourself..... Lol....
Let's be serious here, Barkov's skating doesn't worry you, but Monahan's does? From what I have seen Monahan is far less risky, he can make tight turns and dish off the puck, he can take a hit, do they hit in the FEL league? Will Barkov go into a corner with Chara? I know Monahan will to get a puck for Kessel or Lupul, you thought this over? Obcourse I am basing it on the WJC, but you will admit, Barkov away from the FEL was not as impressive as billed by you.

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01-08-2013, 09:18 AM
  #644
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Let's be serious here, Barkov's skating doesn't worry you, but Monahan's does? From what I have seen Monahan is far less risky, he can make tight turns and dish off the puck, he can take a hit, do they hit in the FEL league? Will Barkov go into a corner with Chara? I know Monahan will to get a puck for Kessel or Lupul, you thought this over? Obcourse I am basing it on the WJC, but you will admit, Barkov away from the FEL was not as impressive as billed by you.
Just a liiiiitle longer.....

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01-08-2013, 09:20 AM
  #645
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Monahan really reminds me of Toews in terms of style of play.

He probably won't put up superstar numbers in the NHL but his play away from the puck and intangibles make him a potential franchise forward to go along with his good offensive skill.

Monahan definitely has #1 center potential.

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01-08-2013, 09:22 AM
  #646
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Of the Euros, I have Nichuskin and Lindolm on top this draft.

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01-08-2013, 09:24 AM
  #647
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Monahan really reminds me of Toews in terms of style of play.

He probably won't put up superstar numbers in the NHL but his play away from the puck and intangibles make him a potential franchise forward to go along with his good offensive skill.

Monahan definitely has #1 center potential.
Yep, he does not do one thing outsanding but he is the complete package that does everything very well. Tell me the Leafs couldn't use a C with his skillset.

I do think Toews is a little out of reach though, but this is a good player.

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01-08-2013, 09:27 AM
  #648
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Monahan really reminds me of Toews in terms of style of play.

He probably won't put up superstar numbers in the NHL but his play away from the puck and intangibles make him a potential franchise forward to go along with his good offensive skill.

Monahan definitely has #1 center potential.
Agreed! I have seen the kid play a few times and every time he was the best player on the ice.

Not a flashy player but does everything well, has good size, speed and hands.

He reminds me of Jordan Staal a lot.

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01-08-2013, 09:30 AM
  #649
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If he didn't play for a terrible Ottawa 67's team, I think his trade stock would be better than what it is (top 3).

I can't say much about Barkov and the rest because I don't know much about them other than their WJC's performances. I highly doubt either one of you have either, so I'm not sure how you can bicker back and forth so much.

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01-08-2013, 09:33 AM
  #650
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I'm a very big fan of Monahan as well. I'd be over the moon if we ended up with him. Total package, and has great intangibles and leadership qualities.

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