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NHL Lockout Discusion XXXIII: It's the same old song. **MOD WARNING POST 274

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Old
12-20-2012, 03:32 PM
  #301
Hullois
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Quote:
Originally Posted by njdevil26 View Post
Gary Lockout Bettman? This is the problem with how many people view this whole thing. Gary is the figurehead for the owners. He is doing what they want... and in some cases being more generous than what some owners want him to do.
... and don't tell me about how involved Gary is with lockouts considering how many labor issues Fehr went through with the MLB. The players (Fehr) offered to bargain while playing. Want to tell me who won the 1994 World Series?
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Quote:
Please tell me where Gary Bettman has screwed up this process.... Bettman and Daly are the only people (including the owners!) that are interested in getting this game back on the ice. The league is losing sponsorship dollars right now because Gary is trying to ensure the financial stability of the league going forward. In a sense Gary is trying to keep the owners in line to make sure they can't keep making those crazy crazy deals with players.
Amazing, I can't believe you wrote that. Obviously, only the owners, who get a small proportion of their income from their hockey team, want to play. The players, who's only source of revenue is from playing, are not.



Quote:
Owners have to bid against themselves and drive the price up for star players... and I can confidently tell you that no player in the history of this league has said to a GM..." No no no no, I'll take less than that... let's preserve the integrity of the game with a fair contract shall we?"
Please give me an exemple of another pro sports league where it isn't the case.


Last edited by Beef Invictus: 12-20-2012 at 03:36 PM. Reason: nope
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Old
12-20-2012, 03:32 PM
  #302
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanklite View Post
Show me the quote that says this from the NHL... Good luck finding it because it doesn't exist.

They have made offers contingent on playing a set number of games, and even then have said they are willing to discuss certain terms of that deal...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Daly
We’ve already made our best offer[s],” NHL deputy commissioner Bill Daly wrote in an email Tuesday. “Maybe its too late to trust them.”
http://sports.nationalpost.com/2012/...-trust-issues/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Bettman
If you remember correctly, the make-whole came at our attempt to save an 82-game season back in early November, and that offer was given virtually no consideration, and lapsed. It was our best offer, it was the best that we could do...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Daly
We had previously said we had made our best offer, but we wanted to get a deal done.
http://slapshot.blogs.nytimes.com/20...-disappointed/


Perhaps I inferred the "We aren't willing to negotiate further" part, but there are a couple right there.

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12-20-2012, 03:33 PM
  #303
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Originally Posted by Kopistar View Post
Seems as though they are setting Jan 15th up to be the drop dead date....
I think this is fair to say.

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12-20-2012, 03:33 PM
  #304
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Originally Posted by Kopistar View Post
Seems as though they are setting Jan 15th up to be the drop dead date....
I've heard that date before as well. It's a shame that they couldn't have both settled this weeks ago so that we could have a more meaningful season. I'll be interested to see what any final deal looks like and how far off it is from what many have been predicting.

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12-20-2012, 03:34 PM
  #305
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OccupySheen View Post
https://twitter.com/BillSimmons/stat...57601011081216
Bill Simmons


JUST CANCEL THE DAMN SEASON ALREADY
Jan 14th they will do just that

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12-20-2012, 03:34 PM
  #306
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedMenace View Post
http://sports.nationalpost.com/2012/...-trust-issues/



http://slapshot.blogs.nytimes.com/20...-disappointed/





Perhaps I inferred the "We aren't willing to negotiate further" part, but there are a couple right there.

Ya think?!

Just read your last quote, it goes against your argument...

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12-20-2012, 03:34 PM
  #307
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Expect word today\tonight the NHL will cancel regular season games thru Jan 14th. End of the line after that...I suspect.

https://twitter.com/DarrenDreger/sta...59625169608705

There it is! Jan 15th or prob a few days after will the the end all date.

Bank on it

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12-20-2012, 03:35 PM
  #308
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanklite View Post
And the Union is unwilling to move off their demands of 8 years and limited variance.

Yet, it is just the NHL that is refusing to negotiate...
The Players moved from no limit to 8 years, the owners moved from 5 years to 5 years or 7 years for re-signing.

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12-20-2012, 03:35 PM
  #309
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Key points of the Lockout

1. Both sides harbor responsibility for it
2. Fehr and Bettman are ego maniacs
3. All this posturing is part of the stalling/negotiating process
4. Disclaimer of Interest is a ploy
5. The players vote to allow the PA exec to disclaim interest will pass
6. The deal will get done ONLY at the last possible moment and on the NHL terms

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12-20-2012, 03:36 PM
  #310
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That stalling is really working hey, PA?

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12-20-2012, 03:36 PM
  #311
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Quote:
Originally Posted by njdevil26 View Post
You have to believe that everything is in play. Do you really think Daly and Bettman would DEMAND 5 year term limits if the PA came back and said "you know what? we only need 200 in make whole... not 300. let's get to 50-50 faster like you wanted and we'll take your CBA term."
I honestly don't know. I can only go off of the language being used by Bettman and Daly. The "final" deal is off the table for good (strong language) and length of contract is the hill they will die on (also strong language).

Honestly, given these strong sentiments, why does it comes as a surprise that Fehr tables the possibility of a disclaimer of interest? How is he to represent the players' wishes if the league refuses to move? Additionally, don't you find it odd that the league uses this strong language only to go to the courts once talks of a disclaimer of interest are brought up?

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12-20-2012, 03:37 PM
  #312
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hullois View Post
I am starting to think you are a little too naive to debate seriously.



Amazing, I can't believe you wrote that. Obviously, only the owners, who get a small proportion of their income from their hockey team, want to play. The players, who's only source of revenue is from playing, are not.





Please give me an exemple of another pro sports league where it isn't the case.
No I meant that possibly Bettman and Daly are interested and the owners aren't. I would bet that Vanderbeek is happy to get a break on Kovalchuk's highest earning year not having to pay him right now. A few owners are in that position.

Go ahead and dismiss me as someone who you can debate with since my opinion is different than yours. That's mature right?

I didn't say other sports leagues don't have that owner/bidding problem... but we can't talk about baseball because there's no salary cap and guys are making 15+ million all over the place. Basketball has a different structure because the small amount of players that are "starters." Football, the contracts aren't guaranteed! I'm sure some owners would like to call some players into their offices after and say "hey, remember this tweet? This tweet? Or this comment you made? Yeah I don't feel like paying you anymore... go find another job" Players have much more protection in hockey than other sports.

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12-20-2012, 03:38 PM
  #313
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deebo View Post
The Players moved from no limit to 8 years, the owners moved from 5 years to 5 years or 7 years for re-signing.
Ok.

So now it is up to the Players to move to the NHLs five year limit and 10 year CBA, which was part of the $300M make whole.

Its simple negotiating but apparently hard for the PA to grasp. You get $100M for those two takes from the NHL.

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12-20-2012, 03:38 PM
  #314
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrimper View Post
That stalling is really working hey, PA?
Don't worry we can still play 82games. Those cancellations are just false deadlines.

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12-20-2012, 03:39 PM
  #315
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adater ‏@adater
If a season will happen at all, expect startup date to be Jan. 15. That's a paycheck date, and league doesn't want Feb. start

https://twitter.com/adater/status/281860236728475648

So tomorrow isn't the end of the world, Jan 15th is also a possibility.

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12-20-2012, 03:39 PM
  #316
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kopistar View Post
Expect word today\tonight the NHL will cancel regular season games thru Jan 14th. End of the line after that...I suspect.

https://twitter.com/DarrenDreger/sta...59625169608705

There it is! Jan 15th or prob a few days after will the the end all date.

Bank on it
Well, they are cancelling games until Jan 14th. That would mean a deal would need to be finalized or agreed upon roughly 10 days before that to play Jan. 15th. So we have about two more weeks to get a deal done.

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12-20-2012, 03:39 PM
  #317
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That gives the two sides roughly 25 days to get this settled, I for one, have 0% confidence that they can get it done in 25 days. Basically, my winter will be spent living my life instead of caring about my team.

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12-20-2012, 03:39 PM
  #318
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slatsmsg View Post
Key points of the Lockout

1. Both sides harbor responsibility for it
2. Fehr and Bettman are ego maniacs
3. All this posturing is part of the stalling/negotiating process
4. Disclaimer of Interest is a ploy
5. The players vote to allow the PA exec to disclaim interest will pass
6. The deal will get done ONLY at the last possible moment and on the NHL terms
Agree on all points except 6. I think that the PA will get some concessions on contract terms but will still 'lose' the most financially which was inevitable once games started to get cancelled.

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12-20-2012, 03:39 PM
  #319
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Look at it this way. This will all be over in a month, one way or another.

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Old
12-20-2012, 03:39 PM
  #320
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deebo View Post
The Players moved from no limit to 8 years, the owners moved from 5 years to 5 years or 7 years for re-signing.
The players haven't moved from ANYTHING! As of Sept 15, the old CBA no longer exists and it is not a starting point for right now. The old rules and guidelines do not exist present day.

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12-20-2012, 03:40 PM
  #321
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Originally Posted by scott99 View Post
That gives the two sides roughly 25 days to get this settled, I for one, have 0% confidence that they can get it done in 25 days. Basically, my winter will be spent living my life instead of caring about my team.
16 days most likely.
I'm happy the season will finally get cancelled. This has been a complete waste of everyone's time.

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12-20-2012, 03:40 PM
  #322
Shrimper
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So if nothing's sorted by Jan 14th. That's it?

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12-20-2012, 03:41 PM
  #323
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kopistar View Post
adater ‏@adater
If a season will happen at all, expect startup date to be Jan. 15. That's a paycheck date, and league doesn't want Feb. start

https://twitter.com/adater/status/281860236728475648

So tomorrow isn't the end of the world, Jan 15th is also a possibility.
This coming from the guy that said to Bank on a Dec. 15th start date...

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12-20-2012, 03:41 PM
  #324
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanklite View Post
Ok.

So now it is up to the Players to move to the NHLs five year limit and 10 year CBA, which was part of the $300M make whole.

Its simple negotiating but apparently hard for the PA to grasp. You get $100M for those two takes from the NHL.
Why is it up to the NHLPA to do so? Because the owners lessened some of their other demands? Awe, how sweet of them.

I think the NHLPA, and specifically Fehr, understand the negotiating process just fine. It would be incredibly naive for one to think otherwise.

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12-20-2012, 03:42 PM
  #325
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanklite View Post
This coming from the guy that said to Bank on a Dec. 15th start date...
Don't shoot the messenger

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