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NHL Lockout Discusion XXXIII: It's the same old song. **MOD WARNING POST 274

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12-20-2012, 04:46 PM
  #451
Lacaar
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Originally Posted by vanwest View Post
Because they ultimately folded. All of which led to the hiring of Fehr and a determination not to fold this time. I think you can argue whether the strategy will work but that is what I read as the sentiment of many of the players.
So what are you saying?

That if the players didn't fold and won out last time. (Which would mean they'd be getting even more money now. boat loads more)

Which would result in more poor teams this team.

That the even broker teams now wouldn't lock them out?

You suggest that NHL owners would think "Geez I know we're losing money but there's nothing we can do about it. This PA is just too unified. We can't lock them out again."

That's what I understand from your statement. Can you clarify further please? I just fail to understand the rationale of how having 25 broke teams means less chance of a lockout over 15 broke teams.

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Old
12-20-2012, 04:48 PM
  #452
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Originally Posted by Noob616 View Post
I still can't believe that both sides of this are pissing away hundreds of millions of dollars of revenue over secondary issues worth comparatively peanuts. It's unbelievable, the players have got down to 50/50, owners have offered 300M in make whole, yet 5 year contracts is the "hill we will die on!". Similarly, the players are willing to keep letting games slip away over variance limits and whatever Fehr decides is the key issue of the day.

Ludicrous.
That is news to me and the NHL!

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12-20-2012, 04:49 PM
  #453
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Originally Posted by vanwest View Post
People insult him for doing a poor job. It's possible for other leagues to settle disputes without losing full seasons. Do the players bear their share of the balme? Absolutely. But why is it a bad thing to hold the guy who is supposed to run the league to a high standard. What would it take for people to actually come out and criticize Bettman? One more lost season? Two? Three?
I hate Gary Bettman with a passion especially because of the way the Phoenix situation is being handled, but he is doing what is best for the game in this particular case. The PA is being unreasonable in this particular case.

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12-20-2012, 04:49 PM
  #454
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Originally Posted by vanwest View Post
This time around, I'd move on the contracting issues and get a deal. He can stop backdiving contracts already under a more moderate proposal. He can make moderate demands next go round. My ideal commissioner doesn't piss away half a season trying to break the PA or satisfy his own personal ego. Had he acted reasonably on these issues he could very well have forced Fehr's hand and had the players put Fehr in line to get a deal if Fehr had not also moved. Bettman doesn't undertsand any way to negotiate but confrontation and demands and hills to die on. It's in his DNA. The NHL needs a commissioner who can look at the bigger picture. Time for Bettman to go. His record for work stoppages is worse than any other commissioner in any other sport. How peole can rise to his defence is simply baffling to me.
So basically llet the PA have a salary party at the leagues expense?
You have no real ideas what to do if you were commish and had to deal with hardliners like Fehr and Goodenow. As you seen these guys are willing to piss away seasons to get what they want....it's not as easy as you think it is.

I always like how people talk about "Bettmans work stoppages" but yet fail to acknowledge the PA's part in them. Do you think it's possible the PA forced the league to lock them out so they could use it as a PR stunt....you know the "this is a lockout not a strike" I didn't realize that people so easily fall for the PA's pr.

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Old
12-20-2012, 04:50 PM
  #455
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Originally Posted by Erik Estrada View Post
Elliotte Friedman ‏@FriedgeHNIC
Hearing NHL will cancel up to Jan. 14. No more BS, we're at the end.

https://twitter.com/FriedgeHNIC/stat...64179206483968
According to the Canadian Press, all games have been cancelled up to January 14th.

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Old
12-20-2012, 04:51 PM
  #456
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Originally Posted by Hanklite View Post
You simply said he should give in now and worry about stuff later on in future negotiations. That is caving. And according to you, looking at the big picture. However, that is the exact opposite of looking at the bigger picture. You dont make compromises now that jeopardize you down the road.
Again read my post. I said this time around I would 'move' on the contracting issues. Move to me, doesn't imply caving, but rather comrpomisng. I'd expect Fehr to also move on those issues. A solution that stops cap circumventing contracts and shortens contract terms gets the NHL most of what they want.

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Old
12-20-2012, 04:51 PM
  #457
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Yep... Story is up on ESPN.

http://espn.go.com/nhl/story/_/id/87...l-games-jan-14
Quote:
During a news conference Dec. 6 in New York after talks broke up again, NHL commissioner Gary Bettman suggested that anything less than a 48-game season would not be acceptable. Given that the league has said it is willing to push a season into late June, a 48-game season would likely have to begin around the third week of January.

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Old
12-20-2012, 04:52 PM
  #458
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Originally Posted by Boltsfan2029 View Post
Negotiating is a game. I worked in the legal field for decades and it's just how it's played.

Proof the PA isn't willing to negotiate? They refused to start talks in November, 2011. They refused to start talks in January, 2012. They took forever to even respond to the league's first offer. They didn't submit their first (and perhaps only) formal proposal for months. It was reported after the last mediation that they refused to discuss compromising on any of the issues. Saying you want to meet and then refusing to talk isn't negotiating.
Be that as it may, but we're talking about now. The PA may have stalled previously, but the NHL are the ones flat-out refusing to meet on anyone else's terms.

But reported by whom?

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12-20-2012, 04:53 PM
  #459
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Originally Posted by vanwest View Post
People insult him for doing a poor job. It's possible for other leagues to settle disputes without losing full seasons. Do the players bear their share of the balme? Absolutely. But why is it a bad thing to hold the guy who is supposed to run the league to a high standard. What would it take for people to actually come out and criticize Bettman? One more lost season? Two? Three?
Personally I'll criticize him when his proposals give the players dramatically worse compensation packages than what the players in other leagues get. That isn't the case this time around.

I'll also admit a certain selfishness, because the things being fought for by the NHL will all benefit Anaheim (lower cap for at least a while, eligible for revenue sharing, no more circumvention contracts, a brake on RFA salaries - actually good for EVERY team in the league), whereas the things being fought for by the NHLPA will turn Anaheim into a feeder system for the top 8 teams in the league. A 7% overall pay cut when I've personally taken a 20-25% hit from the recession just doesn't resonate as tremendously unfair to me. Intelligent people can disagree, and I understand fans of rich teams want their teams to be like the Yankees - I just don't care

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12-20-2012, 04:54 PM
  #460
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Originally Posted by JAX View Post
So basically llet the PA have a salary party at the leagues expense?
You have no real ideas what to do if you were commish and had to deal with hardliners like Fehr and Goodenow. As you seen these guys are willing to piss away seasons to get what they want....it's not as easy as you think it is.

I always like how people talk about "Bettmans work stoppages" but yet fail to acknowledge the PA's part in them. Do you think it's possible the PA forced the league to lock them out so they could use it as a PR stunt....you know the "this is a lockout not a strike" I didn't realize that people so easily fall for the PA's pr.
Well, there you go, a couple of posts above I acknowledged the PA's role:

"People insult him for doing a poor job. It's possible for other leagues to settle disputes without losing full seasons. Do the players bear their share of the balme? Absolutely. But why is it a bad thing to hold the guy who is supposed to run the league to a high standard. What would it take for people to actually come out and criticize Bettman? One more lost season? Two? Three?"

Maybe if there were a couple or more work stoppages even you would start to place some blame on Bettman. Clearly 3 work stoppages isn't enough.

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12-20-2012, 04:54 PM
  #461
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Originally Posted by njdevil26 View Post
Signing bonuses (a la Parise/Suter) are allowed but 50% of the bonus amount gets added to the player's cap number. This lets owners still give out signing bonuses... but it is less of a tool to circumvent the cap as some of it is accounted for in the cap number.
So I understand you right. Of Weber's $13M signing bonus and additional 6.5M would be added to his 7M+ cap hit?

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Old
12-20-2012, 04:55 PM
  #462
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Originally Posted by Zoombie View Post
So clearly you agree the owners have made moves ("every single time") towards the players....
Oh, of course I do. Anyone who claims either side hasn't moved is just blind hating.

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12-20-2012, 04:56 PM
  #463
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Originally Posted by vanwest View Post
This time around, I'd move on the contracting issues and get a deal. He can stop backdiving contracts already under a more moderate proposal. He can make moderate demands next go round. My ideal commissioner doesn't piss away half a season trying to break the PA or satisfy his own personal ego. Had he acted reasonably on these issues he could very well have forced Fehr's hand and had the players put Fehr in line to get a deal if Fehr had not also moved. Bettman doesn't undertsand any way to negotiate but confrontation and demands and hills to die on. It's in his DNA. The NHL needs a commissioner who can look at the bigger picture. Time for Bettman to go. His record for work stoppages is worse than any other commissioner in any other sport. How peole can rise to his defence is simply baffling to me.
This is such a flawed and hypocritical argument. First of all, these contracting issues you speak of could most definitely been agreed to in October had the NHLPA actually negotiated off the NHL's offer for an 82 game season. To my knowledge, the NHLPA hasn't even touched on contracting issues until this latest proposal. If these issues were so important to them they should have negotiated them sooner while there was still chance of a full season. Secondly, to call out Bettman for his "confrontational" approach and not at least acknowledge the fact that Fehr is absolutely no better is laughable. One could argue that we don't even really know what Bettman's "approach" is since he has only ever been up against hardline, confrontational leaders in his time as commissioner. Had the PA not lynched Kelly in the middle of the night, and Bettman was still being "confrontational" I would agree with you.

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12-20-2012, 04:58 PM
  #464
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Originally Posted by Chelios View Post
This is such a flawed and hypocritical argument. First of all, these contracting issues you speak of could most definitely been agreed to in October had the NHLPA actually negotiated off the NHL's offer for an 82 game season. To my knowledge, the NHLPA hasn't even touched on contracting issues until this latest proposal. If these issues were so important to them they should have negotiated them sooner while there was still chance of a full season. Secondly, to call out Bettman for his "confrontational" approach and not at least acknowledge the fact that Fehr is absolutely no better is laughable. One could argue that we don't even really know what Bettman's "approach" is since he has only ever been up against hardline, confrontational leaders in his time as commissioner. Had the PA not lynched Kelly in the middle of the night, and Bettman was still being "confrontational" I would agree with you.
So you're of the school of thought that Bettman is blameless for three work stoppages? The words 'flawed and hypocritcal' are certainly apt. I can understand emotions running high, but the level of insult for posts that even dare lay part of the blame on Bettman are a little overboard. His record speaks for itself. As does Fehr's. I'll leave you at it so you can rant about the greedy players and praise Gary for doing what's best for the league during his 17 years of stewardship.

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12-20-2012, 05:00 PM
  #465
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Originally Posted by vanwest View Post
I'll agree to disagree my fellow Canuck fan.
After all it is the Canadian way.
No, we did it super-politely...THAT is the Canadian way

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Old
12-20-2012, 05:01 PM
  #466
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Are you talking before or after the 24% salary rollback?
During the CBA. 2005-present.

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Originally Posted by njdevil26 View Post
From what I understand, the players get paid a percentage based on the HRR split. I think players were getting somewhere between 94-96% of what their contract dicated?
That's interesting, I wasn't aware of that.

Has anyone done the math on how close the last NHL "make whole" offer was to the actual paid value of the contracts?

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12-20-2012, 05:01 PM
  #467
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So I understand you right. Of Weber's $13M signing bonus and additional 6.5M would be added to his 7M+ cap hit?
No... I should have explained that better.

Weber gets a 13m signing bonus. 50% of that is 6.5 mil.


13 years 98 mil is the full contract. Add 6.5 to the 98 mil. Cap hit right now is 7.58 I think... it would become 8.0.

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12-20-2012, 05:03 PM
  #468
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Originally Posted by vanwest View Post
Again read my post. I said this time around I would 'move' on the contracting issues. Move to me, doesn't imply caving, but rather comrpomisng. I'd expect Fehr to also move on those issues. A solution that stops cap circumventing contracts and shortens contract terms gets the NHL most of what they want.
You have still yet to explain to me why these contracting issues are so important to the PA that they would hold up an agreement. As I have pointed out repeatedly to you, contracting rights are something that the owners feel (rightly or wrongly) are very important to them. They affect each and every owner. The restrictions being proposed would only affect a tiny % of the players, why would this hold up a deal?

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12-20-2012, 05:03 PM
  #469
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Originally Posted by mossey3535 View Post
No, we did it super-politely...THAT is the Canadian way
Oh fiddlesticks kind sir, but your arguments are based on poppycock and tomfoolery. You shall not thimble-rig me henceforth.

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12-20-2012, 05:03 PM
  #470
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Originally Posted by vanwest View Post
And some owners, including a certain Mr. Aquilini, who can be none too happy with the money they are losing. The pressure should really be on both sides now. Mind you, I said that about a month ago too so what do I know.
You know what? You were right, one month ago. You know what happened around that time right? The doves took control on the owners side. You were right. Only, the PA pissed them off. So now that the doves failed(and I believe they gave it their best and most sincere shot), the 8 hardliners on the owners side are back in full control and they don't negociate, they dictate. The PA blew it for all of us. They had the owners where they needed and they missed their chance.

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12-20-2012, 05:04 PM
  #471
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Players take on a substantial risk every time they step onto the ice. Arguably their risk is greater if one were to value physical (and mental) welfare above that of monetary gain.

Both sides take on risk. Asserting otherwise is disingenuous in my opinion.
So in my rec league I should be paid to play cause I am taking a risk each time I go out on the field. Or everyday I go to work I should be paid a hell of a lot more because I'm a teacher and we have more deaths that hockey players do each year.

What about my brother who works in the mines, you need what he digs for and risks his life and health a hell of a lot more. He should get more money. Bottom fact is they get paid damn over the top if they claim that they are risking their health. Many of us do that in our everyday jobs.

Asserting otherwise is disingenuous in my opinion.

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12-20-2012, 05:04 PM
  #472
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You have still yet to explain to me why these contracting issues are so important to the PA that they would hold up an agreement. As I have pointed out repeatedly to you, contracting rights are something that the owners feel (rightly or wrongly) are very important to them. They affect each and every owner. The restrictions being proposed would only affect a tiny % of the players, why would this hold up a deal?
Ok, you argue that these are minor issues that should not hold up a deal. I agree with you. See we can agree on things.

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12-20-2012, 05:05 PM
  #473
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Ok, you argue that these are minor issues that should not hold up a deal. I agree with you. See we can agree on things.
minor issues to PA, major issues to the owners

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12-20-2012, 05:06 PM
  #474
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So you're of the school of thought that Bettman is blameless for three work stoppages? The words 'flawed and hypocritcal' are certainly apt. I can understand emotions running high, but the level of insult for posts that even dare lay part of the blame on Bettman are a little overboard. His record speaks for itself. As does Fehr's. I'll leave you at it so you can rant about the greedy players and praise Gary for doing what's best for the league during his 17 years of stewardship.
Did I say that? No. What I said is that you can't look solely at Bettman when judging the work stoppages. In his 3 CBA negotiations he has faced Goodenow twice and Fehr once (and another time as an advisor). It would be a challenge for any commissioner to avoid work stoppages with that opposition and still try to do whats best for the league going forward.

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12-20-2012, 05:07 PM
  #475
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After the cancellations today I'll say there's maybe a 5% chance of a season.

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