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NHL Lockout Discusion XXXIII: It's the same old song. **MOD WARNING POST 274

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12-20-2012, 04:23 PM
  #501
vanwest
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Originally Posted by Chelios View Post
No, I don't have to show anything. I don't even necessarily disagree that what you propose wouldn't address the owners needs. I have also said time and time again, that had the PA negotiated these things in October there would have been more flexibility on the owners part if it meant saving an 82 game season. But all that matters is that the owners feel very strongly about this, rightly or wrongly. There is literally no reason for these issues to hold up an agreement for 85% of the PA.

You have yet to explain why the players should let these issues hold up an agreement.
I haven't shown it because I don't think they should let these issues hold up a deal. And I also don't think the owners should either. I hold both sides responsible. Maybe we just aren't speaking the same language.

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12-20-2012, 04:23 PM
  #502
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https://twitter.com/reporterchris/st...87114793193473

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A court summons says the NHLPA has until Jan. 7 to respond to the NHL's class-action lawsuit filed in New York last week.

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12-20-2012, 04:23 PM
  #503
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Bettman said no season under 48 games and no games until January 14th takes us very close to that. People are thinking this is the last cancellation of games until the owners shutdown the season entirely.
Right...and realistically they have to have an agreement 8-10 days before that to start by January 15 (a payday, and the 'last' target date imo).

@darenmillard
"Bottom line to @nhl announcement. Partners told puck must drop jan 14th, means D.D. Date 8 to 10 earlier. Let's hope for a ny eve resolution"


That means no agreement by the end of the first week in January, no season. And we're two weeks away from that.

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12-20-2012, 04:24 PM
  #504
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Originally Posted by vanwest View Post
See if you can figure out the difference between trying to show 'you are in charge' and acting responsibly for the good of the league. I am an employer of a number of people, I don' get results by showing them I'm in charge.
82 game proposal

There's one example of acting in the best interests of the league.

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12-20-2012, 04:24 PM
  #505
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Originally Posted by Chelios View Post
You have been told numerous reasons why the owners want a cap on terms and a cap on variance. You disagree. Fine. But they are reasons none the less. 15% of the NHLPA, those that would actually be affected by these changes, have a legitimate reason not to want these restrictions. 85% don't. My point is, and has always been, that the entire PA should not be resisting restrictions that only affect a very small % of its constituents.
Represents a small amount of their constituents in what way? I would say those who astand to be impacted represent the league in a disproportionate manner.

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12-20-2012, 04:25 PM
  #506
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Originally Posted by Chelios View Post
You have been told numerous reasons why the owners want a cap on terms and a cap on variance. You disagree. Fine. But they are reasons none the less. 15% of the NHLPA, those that would actually be affected by these changes, have a legitimate reason not to want these restrictions. 85% don't. My point is, and has always been, that the entire PA should not be resisting restrictions that only affect a very small % of its constituents.
And I agree they should have that. Both the PA and the NHL say that this is a critical issue and won't move. You say this means that the players should give in. I don't see the logic in that. I argue that both sides are being unreasonable.

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12-20-2012, 04:26 PM
  #507
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Originally Posted by CommonMeans View Post
I would look at the contractual issues within this context: The CBA hurts the all-star players in the end. It limits their earning potential in an environment that would otherwise be higher. Of course, the CBA protects players who are not stars of the league. That is, most of the players. Yet, many of the faces of the lockout (and NHL) are those players who could, potentially, thrive outside of (any) the CBA.

And as you have argued previously, these contract lengths will impact only a small percentage of players. Those players being the ones who are required to expand the game. So I would counter your question with another. Why is the league hell-bent on hurting the players they require to grow the game?

It can go both ways.
This would only be a valid argument if these restrictions would actually force the "faces of the game" to go elsewhere... which they will not. Even with these restrictions in place, the stars are going to get paid, and are going to continue to be the "faces" of the league.

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12-20-2012, 04:26 PM
  #508
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No... I should have explained that better.

Weber gets a 13m signing bonus. 50% of that is 6.5 mil.


13 years 98 mil is the full contract. Add 6.5 to the 98 mil. Cap hit right now is 7.58 I think... it would become 8.0.
So Shea Weber got a 14 year, 110M contract with 68M in bonuses so his cap hit would be 10.28M per year? Right?

Interesting proposition. However, the only problem I see is that the total amount of money wasn't the real issues with the Weber contract, it was the 13M at the moment of signing and then another 13M prior to being able to move Weber that presented the problem. So while it might give a higher cap hit that could potentially curtail using bonuses the way Philly did it, I don't think it cures the real issues with bonuses and that's the upfront money. Interesting though.

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12-20-2012, 04:28 PM
  #509
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Apples and oranges. The PA has agreed to 50/50.
No they have not. 50/50 when funneling out large amounts of money through other items (cap exemptions, escrow cap, min salary cap) is not legitimate. It is like being sort of pregnant.

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12-20-2012, 04:28 PM
  #510
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Originally Posted by vanwest View Post
And I agree they should have that. Both the PA and the NHL say that this is a critical issue and won't move. You say this means that the players should give in. I don't see the logic in that. I argue that both sides are being unreasonable.
If we were in August, I would say "have at er" to the PA when it comes to contractual restrictions. But at this point in the negotiations, these issues should not be whats holding up a deal when it only affects such a small portion of players.

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12-20-2012, 04:29 PM
  #511
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Originally Posted by T-Funk View Post
82 game proposal

There's one example of acting in the best interests of the league
.
Sure. Had the players made an 82 game proposal that didn't address the NHL's issues would you then say they are acting responsibly. I have this wierd concept that a league commissioner is actually supposed to put a product on the ice. One lost season? Sure I'll give him a pass. Three work stoppages? I'm starting to see a paatern. Maybe if there are a couple more a few more people will start to wonder about the coincidence of it all.

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12-20-2012, 04:30 PM
  #512
Snotbubbles
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Originally Posted by vanwest View Post
See if you can figure out the difference between trying to show 'you are in charge' and acting responsibly for the good of the league. I am an employer of a number of people, I don' get results by showing them I'm in charge.
Do you let them dictate the terms of their employment with you.

If so, I'm for hire. I let you know my employment demands shortly.

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12-20-2012, 04:30 PM
  #513
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Originally Posted by Canadian Guy View Post
Bettman said no season under 48 games and no games until January 14th takes us very close to that. People are thinking this is the last cancellation of games until the owners shutdown the season entirely.
Yeah but the question is why those who were hopeful yesterday would be surprised by these cancellations? I'll hit the panic button if games are cancelled after january 14th.

Can games get uncancelled? The january 12th date popped around a lot in rumors the last few weeks.

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12-20-2012, 04:31 PM
  #514
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I think the problem is that both Bettman and Fehr aren't hockey guys.

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12-20-2012, 04:32 PM
  #515
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Originally Posted by Snotbubbles View Post
Do you let them dictate the terms of their employment with you.

If so, I'm for hire. I let you know my employment demands shortly.
That only works if your services have high value and several other employers are eager to pay for them.

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12-20-2012, 04:32 PM
  #516
Snotbubbles
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Originally Posted by Nailor Hopberle View Post
I think the problem is that both Bettman and Fehr aren't hockey guys.
Totally irrelevant.

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12-20-2012, 04:32 PM
  #517
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Snotbubbles,
"Do you let them dictate the terms of their employment with you."

No, we sit down regularly and agree on their targets and tasks to be completed. A strange concept I know.

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12-20-2012, 04:33 PM
  #518
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Originally Posted by Snotbubbles View Post
Totally irrelevant.
Totally relevant.

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12-20-2012, 04:33 PM
  #519
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Originally Posted by Cheesesteak Invictus View Post
That only works if your services have high value and several other employers are eager to pay for them.
Players come and go. There are really only a small percentage that have any real value. The rest are expendable.

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12-20-2012, 04:34 PM
  #520
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Originally Posted by Snotbubbles View Post
Players come and go. There are really only a small percentage that have any real value. The rest are expendable.
Yes, and those expendable guys have the least say in how much they get. Unless they're Jody Shelley, apparently.

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12-20-2012, 04:35 PM
  #521
Snotbubbles
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Originally Posted by vanwest View Post
Snotbubbles,
"Do you let them dictate the terms of their employment with you."

No, we sit down regularly and agree on their targets and tasks to be completed. A strange concept I know.
So you let the workers dictate their terms.

Again, I'm for hire. I'll let you know what tasks and targets I will complete.

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12-20-2012, 04:36 PM
  #522
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Originally Posted by Chelios View Post
This would only be a valid argument if these restrictions would actually force the "faces of the game" to go elsewhere... which they will not. Even with these restrictions in place, the stars are going to get paid, and are going to continue to be the "faces" of the league.
Then I ask, why would these star players support any CBA?

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12-20-2012, 04:36 PM
  #523
Snotbubbles
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Originally Posted by Cheesesteak Invictus View Post
Yes, and those expendable guys have the least say in how much they get. Unless they're Jody Shelley, apparently.
Don't remind me.

Well, at least one good thing came from this. Jody Shelley's contract is up.

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12-20-2012, 04:36 PM
  #524
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Originally Posted by Snotbubbles View Post
Players come and go. There are really only a small percentage that have any real value. The rest are expendable.
True. I can't count the number of fans wearing Bettman or Aquilini jerseys at Canucks games.

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12-20-2012, 04:37 PM
  #525
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Be that as it may, but we're talking about now.
Ah, well, I look more at the overall picture, which shows that the PA has refused to negotiate and/or stalled for a far greater percentage of the time than the league has. Looking at it that way, it's easy to see why the league is hesitant to take Mr. Fehr at his word and that he really means it this time.

Quote:
The PA may have stalled previously, but the NHL are the ones flat-out refusing to meet on anyone else's terms.
I think this is a matter of interpretation. Daly saying he won't meet without knowing the agenda doesn't mean he won't meet unless it's on his terms. He just needs to know what the terms are. Will it be owners/players? With Bettman/Fehr or without? Discussion of 50/50 or international competition? I really think he's just saying they need to know what the PA is ready to discuss so they can prepare for it. That shouldn't offend anyone, that's a good thing, because one side having no idea what the other side wants to talk about and arriving unprepared can't lead to much meaningful discussion.

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But reported by whom?
I believe it was the mediator who said neither side was willing to budge. I'll see if I can find it.

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Originally Posted by Noob616 View Post
They're willing to go to 50/50 over the life of the deal, we can skip the semantics.
No semantics. If it's a 6-year deal but it goes 57%, 57%, 56%, 55%, 50%, 50%, not to mention the poison pills that have been included, then it's not over the life of the deal, it's by the end of the deal. Big difference.

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