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NHL Lockout Discusion XXXIII: It's the same old song. **MOD WARNING POST 274

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Old
12-20-2012, 05:38 PM
  #526
Whakahere
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CommonMeans View Post
I don't believe any of your points are relevant save for possibly your brother, who works in an industry that has historically had major impacts to worker/employer relationships. Dare I say even geopolitical impacts - see coal workers strike in the UK and the Atacama mines during the 50s. But I digress.

If you believe that your rec league hockey, or job of teaching kids, is equivalent to NHL players then we will simply agree to disagree.
it was there to prove a point and I hope you see what I mean. It is a bit unfair to say they should get paid more than the owners and everyone else for that matter because they risk their health. Take a look at early death rates and you will notice teachers being among the highest. The noise environment and stress kills more teachers at a younger age than hockey players. sad but strangely true.

I am not saying the players should get crap wages though. good for them but they seem to me to be fighting something the many of the people I talk to as unfair for everyone.

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12-20-2012, 05:38 PM
  #527
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Originally Posted by CommonMeans View Post
Then I ask, why would these star players support any CBA?
Maybe they don't. Unless you think they control the majority.

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12-20-2012, 05:39 PM
  #528
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Originally Posted by vanwest View Post
And I agree they should have that. Both the PA and the NHL say that this is a critical issue and won't move. You say this means that the players should give in. I don't see the logic in that. I argue that both sides are being unreasonable.
Honestly, this type of thinking is the reason we are where we are. I don't even disagree from an idealogical perspective with you when it comes to who should be compromising, or where the final compromise should be. Be it 7 years, 8 years, whatever. But the issue is that we are in December. Games are being lost. Money is being lost by the PA everyday. They have lost more than they ever will get back. There comes a time when they have to cut their losses and pick their battles. Now is that time. Lets say the owners agree to 8 year contract limits in mid January. Can you really tell me it was worth it to the PA to lose a months wages to get an extra 3 (or 1) years on contract limitations? Really?

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12-20-2012, 05:40 PM
  #529
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Originally Posted by CommonMeans View Post
Then I ask, why would these star players support any CBA?
What do you mean?

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12-20-2012, 05:42 PM
  #530
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For all the people worried about the future of the league with a 2nd season missed, my concern is actually the opposite. What happens if they cancel the season and revenues the next 5-6 years don't take a hit and actually the league does well? In that situation after seeing how 2 lockouts didn't affect them, I could see these clowns giving themselves the greenlight to do this every time a CBA expires every 6 years...

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12-20-2012, 05:42 PM
  #531
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You guys are Still defending your views despite neither side caring what u think?

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12-20-2012, 05:42 PM
  #532
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Originally Posted by vanwest View Post
Snotbubbles,
"Do you let them dictate the terms of their employment with you."

No, we sit down regularly and agree on their targets and tasks to be completed. A strange concept I know.
What happens when (1) the employees feel your targets and tasks are unreasonable; and, (2) they fail to meet the targets and don't complete the tasks?


Last edited by Boltsfan2029: 12-20-2012 at 05:57 PM. Reason: Because I can't type
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12-20-2012, 05:42 PM
  #533
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Originally Posted by CommonMeans View Post
Again, Daly has stated that they will NOT move off their length of contract. Why is this hard to understand?

In doing so, they are unwilling to negotiate.
Just my perspective, but the NHL determined how far they were willing to go, and made their "best offer" on the combined package. As others have said - they are attempting to address the core.economic issues of the league.

Their overall offer was contingent on acceptance. They feel like the NHL can support everything they offered if they have 5 year contract limits and a 10 year CBA. There are several pro-PA posts blasting Bettman for having financial issues after 2 previous lockouts. This is what he's trying to fix right now.

I don't see the owners currently not willing to negotiate. I see it more as they went as far as they think they could. We'll see if they've got something left to offer, because that seems to be the story that Fehr sold the PA.


Last edited by Beukeboom Fan: 12-20-2012 at 05:49 PM.
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12-20-2012, 05:42 PM
  #534
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Originally Posted by Snotbubbles View Post
Totally irrelevant.
Very relevant. And sadly completely understated.

Lawyers and businessmen have proven to all of us that they are too blinded by the mighty dollar to really do what is best for the league. They are only in it for themselves.

They are petty, sad, small human beings who will hold on to their egos and clutch their dollar signs despite the ship sinking around them. They are willing to completely destroy a 3.3 billion dollar industry and the legacy that is (was) the NHL over peanuts.

In my opinion, if there is a silver lining in all of this, is that one day NHL owners will recognize this and hire hockey people who also know how to run a business to grow the league. And I mean really grow the league.

Sure, you have to be good at something to do it well. But you need to be passionate about something to excel in it. Get some people in there who are passionate about the sport of hockey, passionate about the history of the NHL and it's future who also know how to run a business and watch what happens.

Also it could be what "saves" the NHL should fans not be back. They could sell it as a complete overhaul of the NHL. Just imagine Ken Dryden for example as commish. They'd get my attention back in a hurry.


Last edited by Jigger77: 12-20-2012 at 05:51 PM.
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12-20-2012, 05:46 PM
  #535
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Originally Posted by CommonMeans View Post
No offense, but this is nonsense in my opinion. The league is a partnership and should be treated as such. Without the players the owners have nothing. Inversely, without the owners the players have nothing.

It's a union that should not be so dis functional. Both sides rely on one another.
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Originally Posted by T-Funk View Post
On the plus side, I don't think there's anyone who doesn't think this season's fate will be decided within the next few weeks.
As a Coyotes fan, I can assure you this will all be settled within the next 2 weeks. Guaranteed.

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12-20-2012, 05:46 PM
  #536
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Originally Posted by Chelios View Post
Honestly, this type of thinking is the reason we are where we are. I don't even disagree from an idealogical perspective with you when it comes to who should be compromising, or where the final compromise should be. Be it 7 years, 8 years, whatever. But the issue is that we are in December. Games are being lost. Money is being lost by the PA everyday. They have lost more than they ever will get back. There comes a time when they have to cut their losses and pick their battles. Now is that time. Lets say the owners agree to 8 year contract limits in mid January. Can you really tell me it was worth it to the PA to lose a months wages to get an extra 3 (or 1) years on contract limitations? Really?
No, I can't tell you that. Both sides have lost more than they would gain by simply agreeing to something in the middle and acting reasonably. It's baffling and I agree that it is exactly why we are where we are at. Too many lines in the sand on both sides. It's the way Fehr and Bettman have always acted in the past so I can't say I'm shocked. More disappointed in the lack of leadership on both sides, TBH.
To add though. By your logic, the PA should always just cave on all issues because financially the owners can win. I can see that ogic but I just don't agree that all of the onus is on them.


Last edited by vanwest: 12-20-2012 at 05:53 PM.
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Old
12-20-2012, 05:53 PM
  #537
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The negotiations have hit ground zero for the NHL. They have given the PA their final terms and the PA refuses to believe them.

Fact is, as the NHL continued to move away from demands from offer to offer, their credibility suffered with the PA. Don sits back and says "don't worry, we can get a little more", they wait and the NHL moves a bit more.

Bill Daly coming out and saying "it's a hill they would die on" may come down to the single biggest utterance in the whole process. Since that point there have been no negotiations. The mediators came by last week, took one look, shook their heads and left.

At this point its all about credible threat. Do the players, and more importantly, does Fehr believe that the NHL has tabled their "final offer"? I believe they have. I think the NHL wanted to approve a deal at the BOG meetings after American Thanksgiving and get the season started by Christmas. Failing that, at least by New Years Eve.

Now that we are 2 weeks away from game over, they have nothing left to target. They may be better suited to cancel the season, show the players they mean it, watch Fehr back peddle, get a deal by next year and spend the next 10 months repairing the brand in the eyes of the fans and sponsors.

There is nothing left for the owners to gain by resolving this without their terms being met this season. One final look from Gary and Bill to Don and Steve and say guys, we are serious. If they baulk at it, walk out to the famous NHL podium (or lectern) and cancel the season on the spot and walk away.

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Old
12-20-2012, 05:54 PM
  #538
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Originally Posted by NJDevs26 View Post
Right...and realistically they have to have an agreement 8-10 days before that to start by January 15 (a payday, and the 'last' target date imo).

@darenmillard
"Bottom line to @nhl announcement. Partners told puck must drop jan 14th, means D.D. Date 8 to 10 earlier. Let's hope for a ny eve resolution"


That means no agreement by the end of the first week in January, no season. And we're two weeks away from that.
My read as well. But I expect NHLPA to read it as a decision must be made by Jan 15th, and some of the hardliners to still push the mid Feb date based on '94-'95.

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12-20-2012, 05:56 PM
  #539
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Originally Posted by Slatsmsg View Post
The negotiations have hit ground zero for the NHL. They have given the PA their final terms and the PA refuses to believe them.

Fact is, as the NHL continued to move away from demands from offer to offer, their credibility suffered with the PA. Don sits back and says "don't worry, we can get a little more", they wait and the NHL moves a bit more.

Bill Daly coming out and saying "it's a hill they would die on" may come down to the single biggest utterance in the whole process. Since that point there have been no negotiations. The mediators came by last week, took one look, shook their heads and left.

At this point its all about credible threat. Do the players, and more importantly, does Fehr believe that the NHL has tabled their "final offer"? I believe they have. I think the NHL wanted to approve a deal at the BOG meetings after American Thanksgiving and get the season started by Christmas. Failing that, at least by New Years Eve.

Now that we are 2 weeks away from game over, they have nothing left to target. They may be better suited to cancel the season, show the players they mean it, watch Fehr back peddle, get a deal by next year and spend the next 10 months repairing the brand in the eyes of the fans and sponsors.

There is nothing left for the owners to gain by resolving this without their terms being met this season. One final look from Gary and Bill to Don and Steve and say guys, we are serious. If they baulk at it, walk out to the famous NHL podium (or lectern) and cancel the season on the spot and walk away.
Nothing to be gained for the owners? What about the millions of dollars they will lose. These astute businessmen are going to cancel the season and lose millions over contracting rights? I'm not buying it.

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Old
12-20-2012, 05:57 PM
  #540
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Originally Posted by quackquackquack View Post
Was that before or after you heard about the rumored Jan 15 Drop Date? I don't understand how anyones expectations fluctuate after this announcement. If a deal isn't reach by a few days after Jan 1, they your chances can waver. There needs to be a 2 week buffer for teams to prepare for the season.
Honestly I completely forgot about the Jan. 15 rumor, just a gut feeling I have. I understand teams need a few weeks to get things fired back up, I just think the court case will drag on too long to fit a season in. I do think the NHL will put out the drop dead date before New Years though.

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Old
12-20-2012, 06:01 PM
  #541
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Originally Posted by vanwest View Post
Nothing to be gained for the owners? What about the millions of dollars they will lose. These astute businessmen are going to cancel the season and lose millions over contracting rights? I'm not buying it.
Whatever traction the NHL may have gained by getting the season started has, in my opinion, been lost. Sponsors leaving, fan apathy, the ire of many berating the lawyers, owners and players. The people who have lost their jobs because of the lock out, the Christmas's lost by people because they have no money.


If the players don't back down, there will be no season.

And these astute businessmen have already lost 96 days of the season and damaged the brand so significantly that the once 3.38 billion dollar HRR will be significantly reduced. If you are going to do that much damage may as well go for exactly what you feel the business needs.

Also, the players aren't buying it and that is their folly


Last edited by Slatsmsg: 12-20-2012 at 06:02 PM. Reason: Add to...
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Old
12-20-2012, 06:08 PM
  #542
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Originally Posted by Nailor Hopberle View Post
I think the problem is that both Bettman and Fehr aren't hockey guys.
I hate this line of thinking.

This is a business decision, not a hockey decision.

And im willing to bet Bettman has been a hockey guy longer than 50% of this board has been alive... Hell he has been running this league longer than some of the draft players... Saying he isnt a hockey guy is a bunch of Bull.

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12-20-2012, 06:10 PM
  #543
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Originally Posted by vanwest View Post
Nothing to be gained for the owners? What about the millions of dollars they will lose. These astute businessmen are going to cancel the season and lose millions over contracting rights? I'm not buying it.
Billionaires losing millions hurt them a lot less than Millionaire players losing millions.

Lets see who crumbles first.

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Old
12-20-2012, 06:11 PM
  #544
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I'm starting to question the PA's game of chicken here. We all know how this ends if the season is lost. They'll accept a deal that would have gotten them on the ice back in November in the first place.

The longer this goes on, I just throw my hands in the air and cannot understand it. The kicking and screaming going on to get a little more from the owners doesn't add up when you run rough numbers of what they lost. And the same does not apply for the owners as they can figure a way through taxes to make sure it's not a loss.

It just completely and utterly boggles my mind why the players are playing this game of chicken.

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Old
12-20-2012, 06:13 PM
  #545
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Originally Posted by ColePens View Post
I'm starting to question the PA's game of chicken here. We all know how this ends if the season is lost. They'll accept a deal that would have gotten them on the ice back in November in the first place.

The longer this goes on, I just throw my hands in the air and cannot understand it. The kicking and screaming going on to get a little more from the owners doesn't add up when you run rough numbers of what they lost. And the same does not apply for the owners as they can figure a way through taxes to make sure it's not a loss.

It just completely and utterly boggles my mind why the players are playing this game of chicken.
Fehr got the judge to rule in his favour last time he was involved in something this nasty: I think he rolls the dice again.

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Old
12-20-2012, 06:17 PM
  #546
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Originally Posted by TylerSVT View Post
Billionaires losing millions hurt them a lot less than Millionaire players losing millions.

Lets see who crumbles first.
I don't know any businessman who will happily lose millions, whether they are billionaires or mere millionaires.

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12-20-2012, 06:19 PM
  #547
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Originally Posted by Canadian Guy View Post
Fehr got the judge to rule in his favour last time he was involved in something this nasty: I think he rolls the dice again.
I'm not even talking about the decertification circus. That's a lot of garbage that is terrible for the long-term game.

I'm just speaking in general. Every single day the players suffer lost wages of an already very short career in the NHL. I could see if there was one major stance where we all 100% agree on, but there isn't that situation going on. If this was a simple discussion about life... they lose more by trying to win a battle as opposed to just going with the deal on the table. It's beyond my understanding.

And nobody in the world could sell me that the majority of the players care about winning this battle on principles of the future of the game than getting paid. My first question as an NHL player would be "Don... will we make more if we sit out this season and get the CBA we want?" That answer is HELL no... not in a million years!

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Old
12-20-2012, 06:20 PM
  #548
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Originally Posted by vanwest View Post
I don't know any businessman who will happily lose millions, whether they are billionaires or mere millionaires.
Lose millions now, lose 100's of millions going forward with a system that's not fixed going forward. Pretty easy decision no?

And when we qualify which businessmen we are talking about, we should keep in mind how many NHL owners were actually making a profit under the old CBA. I would lose a season to profit for 10.

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12-20-2012, 06:25 PM
  #549
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Originally Posted by Slatsmsg View Post
Lose millions now, lose 100's of millions going forward with a system that's not fixed going forward. Pretty easy decision no?

And when we qualify which businessmen we are talking about, we should keep in mind how many NHL owners were actually making a profit under the old CBA. I would lose a season to profit for 10.
Why would you look at how many were profitable under the old CBA. You should see how many would be profitable if the owners met the players, say half way, on the remaining issues. Then see whether most are profitable and should give up on the season.

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12-20-2012, 06:27 PM
  #550
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Sorry if this has been answered already but what ever happened to that vote for disclaimer of interest? I thought the players were supposed to be done with that today. Do we know the results yet?

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