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NHL Lockout Discusion XXXIII: It's the same old song. **MOD WARNING POST 274

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Old
12-20-2012, 06:02 PM
  #576
CerebralGenesis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sharks9 View Post
Except they've already agreed to 50%...
Not really

They can say 50/50 but all of their extra limits like cap monimims barely dent the 57

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12-20-2012, 06:04 PM
  #577
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Originally Posted by CerebralGenesis View Post
Not really

They can say 50/50 but all of their extra limits like cap monimims barely dent the 57
Think the lowest that they had actually offered was 56.5%

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12-20-2012, 06:04 PM
  #578
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Originally Posted by Canadian Guy View Post
As much as we all hate Fehr to think they don't have an endgame is beyond ridiculous.
He probably has one, but is it logical? This is the same guys who fought AGAINST steroid testing.

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12-20-2012, 06:06 PM
  #579
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Originally Posted by Legionnaire11 View Post
He probably has one, but is it logical? This is the same guys who fought AGAINST steroid testing.
Well let's be at least fair here. The MLB itself turned a blind eye to steroids because it brought lots of revenue.

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Old
12-20-2012, 06:08 PM
  #580
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Originally Posted by Pilky01 View Post
He must be referring to the owners as they are the ones who are unwilling to accept anything but immediate and outright capitulation.

It should be plainly obvious to anybody who followed the league through the last lockout that the owners have no intention of staying at 50% and as soon as the yet to be determined CBA expires they will do this exact same thing again.
How do you see that the last lockout is anything similar. And how the next agreement would be the exact same as this one, or even similar to the last time? Last time, even though the NHL was trying to get the percentages to a reasonable number. No business of any kind can survive giving their employees 74% of revenue. Even the current 57% would be difficult for only the top half of sports franchises would be able to maintain.

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12-20-2012, 06:10 PM
  #581
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One question keeps bugging me about the relationship between the last CBA and the one currently being negotiated: Fehr was hired, presumably, because the NHLPA felt that the implementation of the salary cap and other concessions constituted a 'defeat'. Given what players' salaries have done in the years since that perceived defeat, I wonder what terms would've been looked back on fondly as a 'win'?

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12-20-2012, 06:18 PM
  #582
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Originally Posted by i gregory View Post
One question keeps bugging me about the relationship between the last CBA and the one currently being negotiated: Fehr was hired, presumably, because the NHLPA felt that the implementation of the salary cap and other concessions constituted a 'defeat'. Given what players' salaries have done in the years since that perceived defeat, I wonder what terms would've been looked back on fondly as a 'win'?
Complete world domination and omnipotence.

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Old
12-20-2012, 06:21 PM
  #583
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I have a bad feeling season gets cancelled and this thing ends up being dragged out in court for months and months... NHL just needs to tell the players, this is it..This is our final offer, this is the date we cancel season, take it or leave it.. Just can't see how there will be a season next year if neither side will budge on their stance..you know if he PA rejects the deal this year the offer next year won't be better...

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12-20-2012, 06:48 PM
  #584
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CheerstoBeers View Post
I have a bad feeling season gets cancelled and this thing ends up being dragged out in court for months and months... NHL just needs to tell the players, this is it..This is our final offer, this is the date we cancel season, take it or leave it.. Just can't see how there will be a season next year if neither side will budge on their stance..you know if he PA rejects the deal this year the offer next year won't be better...
If this season is cancelled, I almost want this to be the ugliest, most painful lockout in sports history so that both sides are afraid of it happening again the next time the CBA expires.

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Old
12-20-2012, 06:55 PM
  #585
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Originally Posted by Scoobs View Post
If this season is cancelled, I almost want this to be the ugliest, most painful lockout in sports history so that both sides are afraid of it happening again the next time the CBA expires.
Like last time.

That formula really works.

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Old
12-20-2012, 06:57 PM
  #586
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nailor Hopberle View Post
I think the problem is that both Bettman and Fehr aren't hockey guys.
Bettman has been involved with hockey longer then basketball. Hes as much a hockey guy as anything else.

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12-20-2012, 06:59 PM
  #587
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Originally Posted by blasted_Sabre View Post
Bettman has been involved with hockey longer then basketball. Hes as much a hockey guy as anything else.
He does an hour radio call-in show every week during the season.

Tell me, what other sports commissioner has done anything remotely similar?

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12-20-2012, 07:01 PM
  #588
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When should we know the results of the poll? I'd imagine the NHLPA would be extremely excited to announce decertification...

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12-20-2012, 07:03 PM
  #589
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Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
When should we know the results of the poll? I'd imagine the NHLPA would be extremely excited to announce decertification...
They should be just as excited as Bear Grylls was when news got out that he was sleeping in hotels and not in the wild.

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12-20-2012, 07:09 PM
  #590
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Funny how in order to be a hockey guy one has to work in the sport from the cradle. That's horse ****. Bettman grew up a fan. He's a hockey guy as much as any of us.

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Old
12-20-2012, 07:19 PM
  #591
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Originally Posted by vanwest View Post
Logically you are right. But I can tell you that I have dealt with many wealthy people before and I don't know any of them that view millions as the equivalent of toonies. In the end most of them make decisions based on sound business, even if they sometimes play hardball to get there. I think that what you are saying is that it may make good business sense to cancel the season over contracting issues. I really can't see that TBH.
Aye, few would throw away millions for the sake of it, however the owners may feel they have lost enough at this point the difference is negligible should the season be lost. Those contracting rights allow them to save an obscene amount on insurance, whereas the players' demand would necessitate three years out of pocket for long term contracts.

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12-20-2012, 07:28 PM
  #592
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
When should we know the results of the poll? I'd imagine the NHLPA would be extremely excited to announce decertification...
Even if the vote passes (it will), it doesn't mean the NHLPA is actually going to decertify. The players are voting to allow their bargaining committee to disclaim interest if it comes to that point eventually - it doesn't mean the committee is going to announce it's disclaiming interest the instant the votes are in.

In fact, both Mike Johnson and Jamie McLennan expressed doubt that the players even want things to come to that on That's Hockey tonight, because it would certainly kill this season and the players would be much more affected by that than would the owners.

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12-20-2012, 07:34 PM
  #593
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Originally Posted by Noob616 View Post
They're willing to go to 50/50 over the life of the deal, we can skip the semantics.
So hundreds of millions of dollars are "semantics"? That's news to me.

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12-20-2012, 07:36 PM
  #594
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Bill Daly's take on the 50-50

http://www.torontosun.com/2012/12/20...ith-qmi-agency

QMI: I get the sense you feel that while they say they are at 50-50, you don't feel they are at 50-50?

DALY: "That's been an issue from the start. They want to characterize their position is 50-50, when in reality with the transition payments, add to that compliance buyouts, a cap on escrow, they're a long way away from 50-50. I'm not suggesting that's the only issue. The phenomena you just pointed out really does shape our current position: Maybe there is some flexibility around the issues here, but let us know what it is you're prepared to do. If you have a proposal, make the proposal. If it's something we can deal with, we'll deal with it. If it's not, then we'll go back and start re-trading issues."

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12-20-2012, 07:38 PM
  #595
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Langdon Alger View Post
Even if the vote passes (it will), it doesn't mean the NHLPA is actually going to decertify. The players are voting to allow their bargaining committee to disclaim interest if it comes to that point eventually - it doesn't mean the committee is going to announce it's disclaiming interest the instant the votes are in.

In fact, both Mike Johnson and Jamie McLennan expressed doubt that the players even want things to come to that on That's Hockey tonight, because it would certainly kill this season and the players would be much more affected by that than would the owners.
thats such a myth.... nba and nfl players both did it and they had agreements shortly there after. its all propaganda pushed by the league that decert means season is done. if they proceed with decert, its not done immediately anyways, which means things can still be bargained during the process

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12-20-2012, 07:42 PM
  #596
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Quote:
QMI: Why is the five-year limit and 5% variance so important?

DALY: "They are both ways to deal with the long-term backdiving contract issue and a bigger issue from the league-wide perspective which is long-term liability that our clubs can accumulate with long-term contracts. It's been something that's been important to us from the start. The five and seven (offer) were important because they were part of the package our owners felt like they bought. That's why 5/7 are magic numbers. It's not really my quote, but that's why it's the hill our owners will die on."

QMI: It's something the owners feel they have to have?

DALY: "It's clearly something they have to have. But, the insistence on 5/7 was, 'This is what we need in order to put $300 million into 'make whole', to walk away from arbitration, entry-level and UFA.' What the union did was say, 'That's very nice. We're glad you walked away from all those things and you have gave us an extra $100 million but, you know what, 5/7 doesn't work, we've got to negotiate it.' That wasn't an acceptable answer.
Seems to me like Daly pretty much came right out and said they could have traded the $100M in make whole for 6/8 contracts or something of that ilk. Or they could have traded ELC or something of that nature.

Essentially - we can put extra money in current contracts if you want but in exchange we don't want to pay insurance premiums on long contracts. But if you lessen the amount of make whole, we could go longer on contracts.

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Old
12-20-2012, 07:53 PM
  #597
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Originally Posted by Snotbubbles View Post
So you let the workers dictate their terms.

Again, I'm for hire. I'll let you know what tasks and targets I will complete.
Don't forget to demand a guaranteed contract with guaranteed raises each year, regardless of whether or not van's company makes a profit.

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12-20-2012, 08:00 PM
  #598
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepty View Post
Bill Daly's take on the 50-50

http://www.torontosun.com/2012/12/20...ith-qmi-agency

QMI: I get the sense you feel that while they say they are at 50-50, you don't feel they are at 50-50?

DALY: "That's been an issue from the start. They want to characterize their position is 50-50, when in reality with the transition payments, add to that compliance buyouts, a cap on escrow, they're a long way away from 50-50. I'm not suggesting that's the only issue. The phenomena you just pointed out really does shape our current position: Maybe there is some flexibility around the issues here, but let us know what it is you're prepared to do. If you have a proposal, make the proposal. If it's something we can deal with, we'll deal with it. If it's not, then we'll go back and start re-trading issues."
So basically when the PA says "their not negotiating, it's a take it or leave it" that's because unless the league gives the PA what they want they are not negotiating.

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Old
12-20-2012, 08:02 PM
  #599
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FUNNY NHL parody song!!

This is hilarious!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSs1mz9g6i8

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12-20-2012, 08:06 PM
  #600
CerebralGenesis
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The league has openly stated what they can trade pieces around for but the union just says, "forget it how bout this "50/50" deal instead. Don't mind the scribbled napkin scan, we were testing the numbers and quit."

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