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Old
01-15-2013, 01:18 PM
  #126
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01-15-2013, 02:32 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
Like others have said that wasn't the WWF's greatest hour there was major competition from WCW, the rise of the NWO was huge, McMahon was more content to take shots at Ted Turner than to improve his product, etc. Without taking those things into account you aren't looking at the whole picture. And if drawing fans is your favorite metric for measuring how good a champion is then why watch matches? Just read attendance figures. In the ring he was far from the worst, in the ring is what matters the most to me.
Because drawing/ making money in any business venture is the most important thing, perhaps?

So, if somebody makes above average pizza, its ok that nobody buys it on account its above average pizza? Really?

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01-15-2013, 03:01 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by Martini View Post
Because drawing/ making money in any business venture is the most important thing, perhaps?

So, if somebody makes above average pizza, its ok that nobody buys it on account its above average pizza? Really?
Actually, the ****y pizza (Pizza Hut, Domino's, etc) are the biggest sellers in this country, so if you like ****y pizza and ****y workers, bully on you. Everyday must be a party for you.

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01-15-2013, 03:03 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by TyutinMyOwnHorn View Post
Yeah...you really don't know wrestling from that era at all. That much is already obvious.
Actually, I do. And the fact remains Hart didnt draw.


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Originally Posted by TyutinMyOwnHorn View Post
Kevin Nash has a resume of headlining WCW PPV's from A) Being the booker for the damn company, B) Being one of, if not THE highest paid guys in the company not named Hollywood Hogan, and C) Backstage stroke. Bret Hart had none of these in any company and yet was on top of the mountain in WWF, unfortunately during their down years, as was Shawn Michaels, which you failed to mention.
Nash's reign as booker is a fountain of mis-information. He didnt become booker until Feb of 1999. He wasnt the one who booked himself to beat Goldberg, nor the fingerpoke.

B) He earned his money, Irrelevent.

C) Hart was just as bad as HBK in terms of being a diva behind the scenes, with Harts claim to fame being his refusal to job out in Canada. Again, known fact and had to refute.


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Originally Posted by TyutinMyOwnHorn View Post
Now you sound even more stupid than before. This has absolutely no basis in reality, as there's no way to prove who drew what in the context you're bringing up. "Oh this guy was champion at this particular time so I'm using those numbers." Seriously? I guess that means with the current product, everyone attends Raw to see CM Punk and no one else.
No, they go to see John Cena. Dont get ahead of yourself. In that time frame, the champion was the draw and the person who was on the A house shows on account of the WWE ran two tours, one with the WWE champion, one with the IC champ. Using the factual numbers I provided, Hart didnt draw. Hogan drew, Yokozuna, while champion, drew almost 1000 more paid then Hart. Again, numbers back this up and cant be refuted.


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Originally Posted by TyutinMyOwnHorn View Post
See above.
Use the numbers provided as a guide.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TyutinMyOwnHorn View Post
I guess that means wrestlers who held more WWF/World Championships than Bret Hart, such as Steve Austin (6 times), the Rock (9 times), Triple H (12 times) are even bigger transitional champions, using your logic.

The attitude era is a different beast altogether. Different time period and Austin, Rock, and HHH didnt need a belt to draw money as they were above the belt. Hart needed the belt and still wasnt anything more then a transitional champ. You need to understand the time frame and what the belt meant at the respected time. The belt, by the time the attitude era came, was worthless on account of wrestlers like Hart who did nothing with it, relevent to his poor drawing power as champion.


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I didn't use Dave Meltzer's list, I used PWI's.
PWI is a worked magazine that to this day is still Kayfabing. It has no credibility.


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Originally Posted by TyutinMyOwnHorn View Post
Where to begin on how wrong this is? Austin was gaining momentum (in large part BECAUSE of the earlier matches he had with Bret Hart, such as Survivor Series 1996) at that time, but it was his match with Bret at Wrestlemania 13 that cemented it for him from there on in. If you think it was just because of Austin 3:16, you'd be wrong (again). Austin being in a memorable feud with Bret is what made his career in late 1996-early 1997. Austin himself has given Bret Hart no end to the amount of credit for their matches together.
Austin at the time could have had a match with anybody at the time and put the other guy over as a heel. Bret Hart, doesnt matter. The fact remains Hart wouldnt job to a red hot Austin, and Austin and only Austin, again, with a huge amount of momentum by himself, made the match a classic.

Its funny, but Bret Hart seems to put himself in every picture as to why this person or that person suddenly became huge. I mean, the guy said he had something to do with Cena being a huge star.




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Originally Posted by TyutinMyOwnHorn View Post
Earlier you spoke about transitional champions, and then you bring up Flair. Over 20 time World Champion (16 is a false number).
Flair was always a main guy, thinking otherwise is folly. Flair put butts in seats. Nor was he ever just a pawn until McMahon could find another gimmick to try and get over, unlike Hart.

You are reaching with Flair, and would have been better off saying Austin considering Austin was a bigger draw chasing the title then actually having it.


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Originally Posted by TyutinMyOwnHorn View Post
Flair's just mad after Bret called he and Hogan the most overrated wrestlers in history, relying on doing the same 4-5 moves every single night, which is true.
Considering Hart had the five moves of doom, its actually hypocritical for him to say such things.
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Originally Posted by TyutinMyOwnHorn View Post
Never heard anything like that from Orndorff or Vader, and I'd take anything HTM says with a grain of salt, or in his case, gram of coke.
http://www.wrestlezone.com/news/2538...warrior-a-more

As for THM, he has been dead on in many of his shoots. Hardly just a bitter wrestler when Hart was writing his bitterness thru the media without reprisal. Greg Valentine has knocked Hart also, Savage did, Harley Race, Dynamite Kid, the list is endless.


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Originally Posted by TyutinMyOwnHorn View Post
With false info, sure.
Actually, I have provided fact. I understand the truth sometimes for fans can be hard to hear, but fact cannot be refuted.

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Old
01-15-2013, 03:04 PM
  #130
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Martini, you don't use stats to back up your opinion, you manipulate them. You see, this is why not one person takes you seriously because you have instantly become a laughingstock.

How can I manipulate facts?

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01-15-2013, 03:05 PM
  #131
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Actually, the ****y pizza (Pizza Hut, Domino's, etc) are the biggest sellers in this country, so if you like ****y pizza and ****y workers, bully on you. Everyday must be a party for you.
Irrelevent considering it doesnt answer the question.

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01-15-2013, 03:05 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by Martini View Post
Because drawing/ making money in any business venture is the most important thing, perhaps?

So, if somebody makes above average pizza, its ok that nobody buys it on account its above average pizza? Really?
If someone makes the worlds best pizza but not many are sold because the business owner doesn't know how to advertise very well or his store is in a piss poor location and someone else has the greatest advertising campaign for pizza in the history of the world and sells many more than the other guy while their pizza tastes like someone put dog poop on wet cardboard are you saying that the dog poop pizza is the best? If you ate at both places would you continue eating the dog poop pizza because they are the busier eatery? Or would you say "damn that other guys pizza is awesome, it's really too bad that he doesn't market his product very well, meanwhile the other guy claims to have the est pizza but it tastes like dog poop"

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01-15-2013, 03:08 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
If someone makes the worlds best pizza but not many are sold because the business owner doesn't know how to advertise very well or his store is in a piss poor location and someone else has the greatest advertising campaign for pizza in the history of the world and sells many more than the other guy while their pizza tastes like someone put dog poop on wet cardboard are you saying that the dog poop pizza is the best? If you ate at both places would you continue eating the dog poop pizza because they are the busier eatery? Or would you say "damn that other guys pizza is awesome, it's really too bad that he doesn't market his product very well, meanwhile the other guy claims to have the est pizza but it tastes like dog poop"
Vince McMahon didnt advertise?

WCW wasnt on Vinces level in terms of advertsing at the time. Everybody knew what the WWE was, they just didnt tune in or go to matches on account of who was on the top of the card.

Reaching is still reaching.

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01-15-2013, 03:40 PM
  #134
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I don't see how whoever is the champ brings in ratings. It depends on writing and feuds more than it does on who's champion.

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01-15-2013, 04:12 PM
  #135
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I don't see how whoever is the champ brings in ratings. It depends on writing and feuds more than it does on who's champion.
Really? You dont understand that during that time frame the champion was considered the guy Vince was trying to push as the face of his brand? I mean, Hulk Hogan was a draw and was champion during that time frame but suddenly Hart gets a pass for his failure only because he was an above average worker?

Lets see;

Bruno- Huge draw and champion
Superstar- huge draw and champion
Backlund- huge draw and champion
Shiek- transition champ
Hogan- mega draw and champion
Warrior- draw and champion
Savage- huge draw and champion
Sarge- transition champion
Yoko- draw and champion
Flair- draw and champion
Bret Hart- transition champion

Hart didnt even hold the title any longer then a few months at a time, the pure definition of a transitional champion. Couple that with his first reign not even being shown on TV, and was more about Flair wanting to leave so they put the title on him, and the fact Hart was nothing more then a glorified transitional champion gets much, much clearer.

His first reign, after beating Flair, was seven months. Flair wanted to leave and the WWE had no alternative to put the belt on Hart considering he was working a program with Flair at the time. More right place at the right time then somebody they brainstormed as their hand picked champion. They used that time to build up Yoko, not so much for Hart, but to make Yoko seem like a monster for Hogan. Again, sad but true.

Hogan, in turn, didnt want the title so they put it back on Yoko months after Hogan won it. Then, put it back on Hart because the E wanted to run with Nash. Hart didnt want to job the title to Nash, even with all this blather he wasnt a diva behind the scenes, so they put Backlund in and if Hart got any ideas, Backlund could twist him into a pretzel. Which in turn, brought about the 8 second match.

Learn your WWE history, because if you did, you would know Bret Hart is the worst WWE champion of all time.

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01-15-2013, 05:17 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by Martini View Post
Learn your WWE history, because if you did, you would know Bret Hart is the worst WWE champion of all time.
I suggest you learn WWE history instead of telling others to do so, since you have the most backwards interpretation of what constitutes a great champion I've ever seen.

Using your logic, Bret Hart was a worse WWF/E Champion than these guys.



You mentioned how great Flair is and that he doesn't think much of Bret? He thinks much much less of Warrior.





(Note: This is not a knock on Andre himself, but of the reign)

Next you'll be telling me Kane drew better in his 24 hours as WWE Champion than Bret Hart ever did.

It would be nice if someone polled 100 random wrestlers on who they thought was the worst WWE Champion of all time. I would be willing to bet a grand total of ZERO would say "Bret Hart".

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01-15-2013, 05:46 PM
  #137
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I suggest you learn WWE history instead of telling others to do so, since you have the most backwards interpretation of what constitutes a great champion I've ever seen.
Drawing money? You know, the reason why many get into the business to begin with?

Dont take my word for it, take Bobby Heenans;
"With myself, I don't care if you win or lose, I don't care about personalities. Like Monsoon told me, if you’re in this business for anything else than money you’re a fool."

What other reason why you be in this business?
Quote:
Originally Posted by TyutinMyOwnHorn View Post
Using your logic, Bret Hart was a worse WWF/E Champion than these guys.

It's Vinces company. And last time I checked he did it to transition the title.
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Originally Posted by TyutinMyOwnHorn View Post
You mentioned how great Flair is and that he doesn't think much of Bret? He thinks much much less of Warrior.
Warrior drew money. And where have I stated Flair as "great" when I never have said something such as that.

Strawman.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TyutinMyOwnHorn View Post
Transition champ as I stated.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TyutinMyOwnHorn View Post
Transition champ to Hogan who drew a huge WM.
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Originally Posted by TyutinMyOwnHorn View Post
(Note: This is not a knock on Andre himself, but of the reign)
He was never even being considered for a run with the belt with Hogan on top. He was a great challenger for Hogan and nothing but. Again, strawman.
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Originally Posted by TyutinMyOwnHorn View Post
Next you'll be telling me Kane drew better in his 24 hours as WWE Champion than Bret Hart ever did.
Again, Kanes reign as champion was to put him over as a monster, not as a viable champion.
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Originally Posted by TyutinMyOwnHorn View Post
It would be nice if someone polled 100 random wrestlers on who they thought was the worst WWE Champion of all time. I would be willing to bet a grand total of ZERO would say "Bret Hart".
Hogan, Orndorf, Flair,etc.

This isnt real life. It was about making money, something Hart didnt nor could do while champion. He just wasnt credible and was nothing but a transitional champion until Vince came up with something better. Proven countless times in this thread. Making money trumps anything and lo and behold, those who are considered the best are the ones who made money. I highly doubt wrestlers in this day and age in the E have no problem with Cena considering he is making them solid paychecks, but you do hear alot about how the underneath guys didnt want to be on the B shows when Hogan was on the A ones. Sad but true. The greatest are the ones who could make the casual fan pull those dollars out their pockets and get them to buy tickets.

You want to talk workrate? Hogan wasnt a good worker but I will bet you if you polled 100 random wrestlers if they had to chose between working a card with Hogan or Hart on top, each and every one are choosing Hogan. It works both ways. And the bottom line is money and always will be, sad but true. People want the real mcoy, not the kidzbop versions.

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01-15-2013, 06:01 PM
  #138
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Warrior was ****. Excuse my Francais.

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01-15-2013, 06:05 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by Martini View Post
Drawing money? You know, the reason why many get into the business to begin with?
Bret made millions in wrestling, and unlike many of his peers, didn't piss it all away.

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Originally Posted by Martini View Post
Hogan, Orndorf, Flair,etc.
They would never say Bret Hart was the WORST WWE Champion in history.

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Originally Posted by Martini View Post
This isnt real life. It was about making money, something Hart didnt nor could do while champion. He just wasnt credible and was nothing but a transitional champion until Vince came up with something better. Proven countless times in this thread. Making money trumps anything and lo and behold, those who are considered the best are the ones who made money.
If Bret Hart never drew any money for the WWE (I guess the legions of younger fans wearing Hitman shades and shirts in the early-mid 90's meant nothing), why did Vince McMahon give him a TWENTY year contract worth over 10 million dollars in late 1996? Vince wanted to have Bret in the WWF for life. Why would he shell out such an exorbitant amount of money and term for a guy who, according to your logic, didn't draw any money for the company?

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You want to talk workrate? Hogan wasnt a good worker but I will bet you if you polled 100 random wrestlers if they had to chose between working a card with Hogan or Hart on top, each and every one are choosing Hogan. It works both ways. And the bottom line is money and always will be, sad but true. People want the real mcoy, not the kidzbop versions.
I bet if wrestlers like Lance Storm, Kurt Angle, etc were polled, they'd pick Bret Hart.

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01-15-2013, 06:12 PM
  #140
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Sarge only "drew" a) b/c he was with Hogan in a program and b) the storyline they had him involved in with the iraqi war was good timing...otherwise i'm pretty sure (in my own opinion) the title would have never gone on him...

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Old
01-15-2013, 06:17 PM
  #141
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Bret made millions in wrestling, and unlike many of his peers, didn't piss it all away.
But didnt make money for, you know, Vince.

Vince never would have let him leave if he did. Sad, but true, especially at the time he has kicked to the side in favor of HBK.


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They would never say Bret Hart was the WORST WWE Champion in history.
Lemmes see, Flair said he never drew a dime, Orndorf said he was not only the worng choice, but a joke as champ. What does that say?


Quote:
Originally Posted by TyutinMyOwnHorn View Post
If Bret Hart never drew any money for the WWE (I guess the legions of younger fans wearing Hitman shades and shirts in the early-mid 90's meant nothing), why did Vince McMahon give him a TWENTY year contract worth over 10 million dollars in late 1996? Vince wanted to have Bret in the WWF for life. Why would he shell out such an exorbitant amount of money and term for a guy who, according to your logic, didn't draw any money for the company?
In McMahons own words, it was about loyalty. Blind loyalty thats eyes opened the second McMahon found a loop hole to get that out of the equation, and rightfully so. He knew Hart wasnt a money maker and found a mark with money (Bish) to take on that problem while he reaped the rewards for not having Hart there. It isnt coincidense the E took off to another level once Hart left.


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Originally Posted by TyutinMyOwnHorn View Post
I bet if wrestlers like Lance Storm, Kurt Angle, etc were polled, they'd pick Bret Hart.


Sure, making huge money over scraps is the thing wrestlers get into this business for.

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01-15-2013, 06:19 PM
  #142
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Sarge only "drew" a) b/c he was with Hogan in a program and b) the storyline they had him involved in with the iraqi war was good timing...otherwise i'm pretty sure (in my own opinion) the title would have never gone on him...
They needed somebody to transition the title to for Hogan to beat. Sarge was a perfect choice to be a trasitional Bret in that reguard.

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01-15-2013, 06:22 PM
  #143
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They needed somebody to transition the title to for Hogan to beat. Sarge was a perfect choice to be a trasitional Bret in that reguard.
right...which would make Sarge a far worse champion...he had the title only to get it back to Hogan...

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01-15-2013, 06:25 PM
  #144
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right...which would make Sarge a far worse champion...he had the title only to get it back to Hogan...
Which was worse then Harts legacy as a transitional champion every time he had the belt?

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01-15-2013, 06:28 PM
  #145
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So the question to the 100 random wrestlers is "would you rather be on a card where Bret is headlining or Hogan is headlining?"

I bet most pick Bret.
If the question is "your personal paycheck is tied into how much the show makes..." then maybe Hogan wins.
But if the wrestlers paycheck has no bearing on the main event then Bret would win.




Also by your logic Yokozona was a transitional champ as he beat Bret only to lose to Hogan minutes later.


Last edited by Xenophobia Catalyst: 01-15-2013 at 06:41 PM.
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01-15-2013, 06:29 PM
  #146
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Originally Posted by Martini View Post
But didnt make money for, you know, Vince.

Vince never would have let him leave if he did.
Hence the 20 year contract.

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Lemmes see, Flair said he never drew a dime, Orndorf said he was not only the worng choice, but a joke as champ. What does that say?
Flair has said many things that never made sense.

"I do!"
"I'll pay my bar tab!"

As for Orndorff, a guy who was never close to being a World Champion has no room to talk.

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In McMahons own words, it was about loyalty. Blind loyalty thats eyes opened the second McMahon found a loop hole to get that out of the equation, and rightfully so. He knew Hart wasnt a money maker and found a mark with money (Bish) to take on that problem while he reaped the rewards for not having Hart there. It isnt coincidense the E took off to another level once Hart left.
Strange how McMahon wasn't as loyal to the other guys that supposedly made him so much more money than Bret then, eh?

Vince wanted out of the contract because quite simply, he couldn't afford it. Business was on a downturn (which you'll probably blame Bret for, even though Shawn Michaels was WWF Champion for a large portion of this period), WCW was kicking the WWF's ass in every measurable sense, so Vince thought the best thing was for Bret to go to WCW.

By the way, the "E"'s business picked up drastically after Steve Austin became WWF Champion at Wrestlemania 14 and the whole Austin/McMahon feud kicked off, not because of Bret Hart's departure a whole 4 months earlier.

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01-15-2013, 06:50 PM
  #147
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It isnt coincidense the E took off to another level once Hart left.
Oh come on, everything else you've said has been plausible except this. It was two things: Heel Vince and Steve Austin.

Vince was seen as a corrupt control freak. So they used that heat and booked him in storylines as a corrupt control freak. It made him one of the best wrestling villains ever and made his feud with Austin seem believable.

Yes, the genesis of Heel Vince was the kayfabe events in Montreal, but that had absolutely nothing to do with Hart's drawing rate.

You could just as easily say "It isn't coincidence WWE took off when Shawn Michaels injured his back." You make it seem like Bret Hart, even when he wasn't champion, was an anchor holding WWE down singlehandedly.

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01-15-2013, 07:24 PM
  #148
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I can't believe I tried to read all of this. My head hurts.

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01-15-2013, 11:30 PM
  #149
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Originally Posted by TyutinMyOwnHorn View Post
Hence the 20 year contract.
Which was honored when?


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Originally Posted by TyutinMyOwnHorn View Post
Flair has said many things that never made sense.

"I do!"
"I'll pay my bar tab!"
Irelevent to this discussion.
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Originally Posted by TyutinMyOwnHorn View Post
As for Orndorff, a guy who was never close to being a World Champion has no room to talk.
Orndorf didnt need a title to be effective. I mean, if headlining the first ever WM or having the biggest run chasing Hoagn while Hogan on top wasnt proof enough.


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Originally Posted by TyutinMyOwnHorn View Post
Strange how McMahon wasn't as loyal to the other guys that supposedly made him so much more money than Bret then, eh?
Like who? Hogan who did pretty much whatever he wanted? Superstar who blasted him durning the streoid trials yet came back? Austin who pulled a hissy fit three times yet is still on Vinces payroll? HBK who refused to outright do jobs? Hall who was a complete drunk his last run and has cost McMahon hundreds of thousands in rehab visits? Snuka who allegedly killed his girlfriend at the time and Vince was the one who bailed him out? The Rock who sold out and left Vince without a number one guy for a few months? Do you even know what you are talking about?
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Originally Posted by TyutinMyOwnHorn View Post
Vince wanted out of the contract because quite simply, he couldn't afford it. Business was on a downturn (which you'll probably blame Bret for, even though Shawn Michaels was WWF Champion for a large portion of this period), WCW was kicking the WWF's ass in every measurable sense, so Vince thought the best thing was for Bret to go to WCW.
Vince had the new model in Austin to be the face of his brand and that left Hart, the transition champion, without a job in the WWE. Vince had nothing for the guy in terms of storylines. He was used up.

As for HBK, after he won the title business started to pick up.PPV's buy rates climed to levels Hart never could get to. So again, fact proves me correct in this reguard considering PPV's started to be more important then house tours and McMahon finally had a marquee name to showcase for them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TyutinMyOwnHorn View Post
By the way, the "E"'s business picked up drastically after Steve Austin became WWF Champion at Wrestlemania 14 and the whole Austin/McMahon feud kicked off, not because of Bret Hart's departure a whole 4 months earlier.
Hart was nowhere near the main event. Right there, factually speaking, business picked up without Hart crying for a ME spot he didnt deserve.

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01-15-2013, 11:34 PM
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Originally Posted by AfroThunder396 View Post
Oh come on, everything else you've said has been plausible except this. It was two things: Heel Vince and Steve Austin.

Vince was seen as a corrupt control freak. So they used that heat and booked him in storylines as a corrupt control freak. It made him one of the best wrestling villains ever and made his feud with Austin seem believable.

Yes, the genesis of Heel Vince was the kayfabe events in Montreal, but that had absolutely nothing to do with Hart's drawing rate.

You could just as easily say "It isn't coincidence WWE took off when Shawn Michaels injured his back." You make it seem like Bret Hart, even when he wasn't champion, was an anchor holding WWE down singlehandedly.
He was.

Simply by being a backstage diva he brought down the WWE at a time when they didnt need him doing such. Hart had issues with storylines and the way Vince wanted to go in terms of them, which singlehandedly strapped them. Once Hart was gone, they went full on with the Attitude era and the rest id history.

Even now, while Hart cried about the direction then, he says he he was a major influance in it and how he wishes the E would go that route again. Not to be hypocritical or anything.....

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