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NHL lockout: Fehr unafraid of long fight

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Old
12-20-2012, 04:33 PM
  #76
tarheelhockey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HabsByTheBay View Post
That has the square root of fudge all to do with the health of the game.
People caring about the championship series has nothing to do with the health of the game.

I mean, even just typing that sounds ridiculous.

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Local TV ratings have never been better; almost all teams are seeing long-term rises and hardly any MLB games are not televised in both markets.
Yes, technology has advanced and increased exposure. This has happened in every sport and, as has been pointed out many times in this forum in relation to the NHL, that in and of itself is not evidence of increasing popularity. The same can be said of attendance figures when there are far more elements in play than the popularity of the game.

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Furthermore, since I know you like your anecdotal evidence about how nobody in NC cares about baseball,
You can make your point without mischaracterizing what I've said.

There has been a very clear generational shift away from baseball not just in NC, but in Middle America in general. Great for SF that baseball is popular after being in the spotlight for about a decade straight, but that's one city measured against a whole nation of kids who aren't playing the game the way they used to.

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12-20-2012, 04:50 PM
  #77
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Fehr isn't afraid to sacrifice the players in the short term to get what he wants long term. He set baseball back years with his reckless strike in 94. Remember he was an (unpaid and not under employment by the NHLPA) advisor to Goodenow 2004-05 where players lost a year they never got back.

Goodenow: "There will never be a salary cap. I've told the players to be prepared for a long lockout by the owners. It may last a year, it may last two or three years, but we will never accept a salary cap."

So of course Fehr isn't afraid of a long fight. Players are ammo.


Last edited by Freudian: 12-20-2012 at 06:12 PM.
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12-20-2012, 05:00 PM
  #78
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Perhaps confusion over stewards of the game vs the league vs owner interests.
I was actually having trouble following what you meant by;

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You're saying that there is no self-interest just because you're in the position to influence something.
But I wasn't clear in saying so.

No biggie...

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12-20-2012, 05:09 PM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
Fehr isn't afraid to sacrifice the players in the short term to get what he wants long term. He set baseball back years with his reckless strike in 94. Remember he advised Goodenow 2004-05 where players lost a year they never got back.

Goodenow: "There will never be a salary cap. I've told the players to be prepared for a long lockout by the owners. It may last a year, it may last two or three years, but we will never accept a salary cap."

So of course Fehr isn't afraid of a long fight. Players are ammo.
Funny enough, Fehr just recently pointed out again, that it was the membership calling for that strike, not he himself. He just went along with the players' decision back then.

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12-20-2012, 05:20 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Stickmata View Post
And you don't think the owner of a private, for-profit business should be in it for their own gain?
They should without tax money.


Last edited by Melrose Munch: 12-20-2012 at 05:30 PM.
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Old
12-20-2012, 05:22 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by KINGS17 View Post
MLB, perhaps the first bubble that will burst in professional sports.

Franchise values will drop, player salaries will drop, it will get ugly and it will be fun to watch.
You keep saying that but you don't give hard evidence. Right at this second the NHL will not touch the MLB. And because of this situation it never will. The only reason why salaries are going do are because of the strict lux tax rules for 2013.

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12-20-2012, 05:24 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by HabsByTheBay View Post
That has the square root of fudge all to do with the health of the game. Local TV ratings have never been better; almost all teams are seeing long-term rises and hardly any MLB games are not televised in both markets. Following one single team is a job in and of itself, since the season is 162 games long. I'd argue that is largely responsible for the decline in national ratings for the postseason: people only time to get wrapped up in their team, once their team is out, nobody cares.

It's worth pointing out too that we've had a really bad run of crappy World Series: there's been only one 7-game series since 2002 and that 7th game did a 25 share nationally. It's been true forever that ratings rise the longer a series goes.

Attendance is still excellent, just a shade below the 2008 all-time high.

Furthermore, since I know you like your anecdotal evidence about how nobody in NC cares about baseball, I am from a market (SF) that nobody regarded until last year as one of America's top baseball markets and people are insane about baseball there. You see thousands of kids at the game, almost all of the little brothers and sisters in my social circle love the game...it's a way of life now in SF.

So we've probably finished with the World Series as a sporting event unsurpassed by anything but the Super Bowl. The Final Four, the NFL playoffs and maybe the World Cup are above it now. But I don't think that has happened at the expense of the long-term health of the game.
I won't take it that far. Tarheel points out baseball ratings have dropped and they have. The NBA is on the heels everyday. Baseball's biggest problems is demographics. And to be fair attendance was nasty for some parts of the summer.

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Old
12-20-2012, 05:37 PM
  #83
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it's the law that matters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadian Guy View Post
He was wrong then, he could very well be wrong now.

He beat MLB with the help of a judge so I am thinking he's telling NHL players that the same will happen.
Canadian guy,

You understand that the law of the land as per the McNeil verdict supports the position that players have a right to bring anti trust suits in matters such as these absent a union to represent them. Don't you?

It's the law here in the states.

For clarity purposes there are two types of laws:

Statutes - basically laws passed by the Congress and approved by the Senate and then signed into law by the President.

Case Law - this is basically the refinement or clarification of statutes that are applied to specific areas that have ben brought before the courts as questions of viability. Not sure a law professor would define things precisely that way but cut me some slack on that part please.

In anti trust actions such as McNeil, you have anti trust statutes, The Sherman Anti Trust Act for example wherein the law passed by the legislature and signed into LAW by the POTUS defined certain behaviors as unlawful. The lawyers representing the players sought relief from the courts stating that the bahaviour of the NFL in the use of Plan B free agency was unlawful.

The court found that the behaviours did violate anti trust statutes and where they determined there were damages allowed them.

What's important in this ruling, particularly as it pertains to the matter that troubles us all so much, is that in McNeil, the court recognized that while the players were in a union they couldn't ask for relief under anti trust. Subsequent cases have cited the decision in McNeil in granting the relief or not. More importantly, when the players removed the union bar to their action (in the NHL case it would be either a DOI or a decertification) and DESPITE the court knowing that they had done so IN ORDER TO BRING ANTI TRUST ACTION, the court allowed it.

The similarities to the current fiasco are quite obvious (IMHO) and that is why I think that the law (and remember thats where the court looks for guidance in rendering a judgement) favors the PA.

You may not like it, you may be in a very large crowd of people who think like you, but for all intents and purposes it will be the US court and it's interpretation of the laws of the US that will decide the matter. The court will consider precident, case and statutes and opinions rendered by other justices including the "Supremes" (not the singing group) in deciding.


F1

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Old
12-20-2012, 06:04 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Gm0ney View Post
World Series ratings since 1984:



Just more evidence of a "booming industry" I guess.
Of course, ALL broadcast TV ratings (except possibly the Superbowl) have dropped drastically since 1980 (and before) - thanks to the advent of cable and then the internet.

Top rated network shows used to be in the 30's - now they're in the single digits. The top rated show in 2010 (American Idol) pulled in a 7.9 avg. Last Week, Sunday Night Football pulled in an 8.7 - the next best show pulled in a 5.4.

http://www.popculturemadness.com/Tri...-Ratings1.html

1971-1972 All in the Family (CBS) rating 34.0
1972-1973 All in the Family (CBS) rating 33.3
1973-1974 All in the Family (CBS) rating 31.2
1974-1975 All in the Family (CBS) rating 30.2
1975-1976 All in the Family (CBS) rating 30.1
1976-1977 Happy Days (ABC) rating 31.5
1977-1978 Laverne & Shirley (ABC) rating 31.6
1978-1979 Laverne & Shirley (ABC) rating 30.5
1979-1980 60 Minutes (CBS) rating 28.2
1980-1981 Dallas (CBS) rating 31.2
1981-1982 Dallas (CBS) rating 28.4
1982-1983 60 Minutes (CBS) rating 25.5
1983-1984 Dallas (CBS) rating 25.7
1984-1985 Dynasty (ABC) rating 25.0
1985-1986 The Cosby Show (NBC) rating 33.8
1986-1987 The Cosby Show (NBC) rating 34.9
1987-1988 The Cosby Show (NBC) rating 27.8
1988-1989 The Cosby Show (NBC) rating 25.5
1989-1990 Roseanne (ABC) rating 23.4
1990-1991 Cheers (NBC) rating 21.3
1991-1992 60 Minutes (CBS) rating 21.9
1992-1993 60 Minutes (CBS) rating 21.9
1993-1994 60 Minutes (CBS) rating 20.9
1994-1995 Seinfeld (NBC) rating 20.6
1995-1996 E.R. (NBC) rating 22.0
1996-1997 E.R. (NBC) rating 21.2
1997-1998 Seinfeld (NBC) rating 21.7
1998-1999 E.R. (NBC) rating 17.8
1999-2000 Who Wants To Be A Millionaire (ABC) rating 18.6
2000-2001 Survivor (CBS) rating 16.9
2001-2002 Friends (NBC) rating 15.6
2002-2003 CSI (CBS) rating 14.6
2003-2004 CSI (CBS) rating 16.4

Curiously enough, the World Series ratings track pretty closely with those of the top network show of that year.

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Old
12-20-2012, 06:17 PM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Falconone View Post
Canadian guy,

You understand that the law of the land as per the McNeil verdict supports the position that players have a right to bring anti trust suits in matters such as these absent a union to represent them. Don't you?

It's the law here in the states.

For clarity purposes there are two types of laws:

Statutes - basically laws passed by the Congress and approved by the Senate and then signed into law by the President.

Case Law - this is basically the refinement or clarification of statutes that are applied to specific areas that have ben brought before the courts as questions of viability. Not sure a law professor would define things precisely that way but cut me some slack on that part please.

In anti trust actions such as McNeil, you have anti trust statutes, The Sherman Anti Trust Act for example wherein the law passed by the legislature and signed into LAW by the POTUS defined certain behaviors as unlawful. The lawyers representing the players sought relief from the courts stating that the bahaviour of the NFL in the use of Plan B free agency was unlawful.

The court found that the behaviours did violate anti trust statutes and where they determined there were damages allowed them.

What's important in this ruling, particularly as it pertains to the matter that troubles us all so much, is that in McNeil, the court recognized that while the players were in a union they couldn't ask for relief under anti trust. Subsequent cases have cited the decision in McNeil in granting the relief or not. More importantly, when the players removed the union bar to their action (in the NHL case it would be either a DOI or a decertification) and DESPITE the court knowing that they had done so IN ORDER TO BRING ANTI TRUST ACTION, the court allowed it.

The similarities to the current fiasco are quite obvious (IMHO) and that is why I think that the law (and remember thats where the court looks for guidance in rendering a judgement) favors the PA.

You may not like it, you may be in a very large crowd of people who think like you, but for all intents and purposes it will be the US court and it's interpretation of the laws of the US that will decide the matter. The court will consider precident, case and statutes and opinions rendered by other justices including the "Supremes" (not the singing group) in deciding.


F1
By "he was wrong" I meant that in response to someone saying Fehr was quoted as saying that the MLB will not dare to cancel the World Series.

I don't have much of an opinion on the legal side of things, that's why we have judges: they are the ones who's job is to make sure the law is correctly interpreted and applied; courts are not the battleground for morality or ethics.

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12-20-2012, 06:20 PM
  #86
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Well they still do have to compete on ice. And it seems that Nashville got just as far as Phily last year in the Playoffs. And both teams have made the Playoffs fairly regularly in recent years. So ok, they're in different Conferences, but on-ice-wise, but teams have been fairly equal competitively.

They put things in the CBA to try to help each other, but once the teams hit the ice, of course everyone is out for himself. And assembling your team, within the rules that exist, is part of that on-ice competition.
So you are suggesting the owners only care about the health of the league and its members at CBA negotiation time, then its about screwing your buddy?

While many have made these negotiations about Bettman or Fehr they have missed the boat IMO.

This CBA is about owners fighting owners.

How could anyone blame the revenue challenged franchise for wanting tighter contracting rules, a rollback in costs and/or some form of penalties on existing back diving contracts?

The effect of all these things has been a cost driver, something at least a dozen franchises can't afford, nor obviously willing to tolerate.

IMO this is why the NHL lockout continues, its not about $100M added here or there, nor is it about Fehr and the players being unreasonable.

This negotiation is about a sufficient number of owners wanting iron clad rules to prevent their partners from putting them out of business.

Personally I don't blame them, unfortunately they need the players to roll over to be successful.

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12-20-2012, 06:26 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
Fehr isn't afraid to sacrifice the players in the short term to get what he wants long term. He set baseball back years with his reckless strike in 94. Remember he was an (unpaid and not under employment by the NHLPA) advisor to Goodenow 2004-05 where players lost a year they never got back.

Goodenow: "There will never be a salary cap. I've told the players to be prepared for a long lockout by the owners. It may last a year, it may last two or three years, but we will never accept a salary cap."

So of course Fehr isn't afraid of a long fight. Players are ammo.
What??? Did I read this correctly, are you saying Fehr was advising the NHLPA in 2004/05?

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12-20-2012, 06:35 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Holdurbreathe View Post
What??? Did I read this correctly, are you saying Fehr was advising the NHLPA in 2004/05?
We know he and Goodenow were close and Fehr advising him during the last lockout has been mentioned.
I don't think there are any official statements though

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12-20-2012, 06:37 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by HabsByTheBay View Post
I think anybody who thinks Fehr is running the NHLPA by diktat is ill-informed. Fehr is Marvin Miller's protege, and there are hundreds of MLB players from Miller's era who will tell you that the MLBPA was run as a democracy. Miller came in, educated the players on the issues, and they made the decisions. I have the utmost confidence that's exactly what Fehr does.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...ehr/index.html

After more than a quarter of a century of serving as the executive director of the Major League Baseball Players Association, and on his way out the door, Donald Fehr still marveled at what he called the "freedom" of the position. What other lawyer or labor leader, he said, is given the power "to get to do what you think is the right thing to do." It is a union not run by the rank and file, but by its executive director, "as long as you make a reasonable case for doing what you think is the right thing to do," Fehr said.

It is a powerful responsibility, and one Fehr exercised well, always guided by what he believed to be in the best interests of all those ballplayers who gladly ceded operational and philosophical control to him. The way Fehr spoke in gratitude about this "freedom" yesterday, as he announced his pending retirement, he unintentionally put a spotlight on his personal responsibility for The Steroid Era, one of the darkest and most fraudulent eras in baseball history.


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12-20-2012, 06:44 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Holdurbreathe View Post
What??? Did I read this correctly, are you saying Fehr was advising the NHLPA in 2004/05?
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/201...lpa/index.html

Fehr had developed something of a reputation with the "contest everything" crowd. You can see it in his fundamental dealings with Major League Baseball and his longtime association with Goodenow as a kitchen cabinet-type adviser when Fehr led the baseball players and Goodenow was in charge of the hockey players. The two are known to have spoken often and, according to some in the PA, Goodenow modeled his approach to NHL owners based on Fehr's tactic of never conceding a point without at least an attempt to get something in return

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12-20-2012, 06:45 PM
  #91
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...2004-05 where players lost a year they never got back.
The PA did stunningly well with that lockout, generating huge amounts more income for themselves than they would have with any of the "last offers" prior to the season being lost.

 
Old
12-20-2012, 06:45 PM
  #92
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Fehr isn't a hockey fan, so why would he care?

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12-20-2012, 06:56 PM
  #93
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Fehr is the worst thing to happen to the sport since Gary Bettman.

How the players can possibly be so disillusioned as to throw their own interests out the window is beyond me.

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12-20-2012, 07:01 PM
  #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepty View Post
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/201...lpa/index.html

Fehr had developed something of a reputation with the "contest everything" crowd. You can see it in his fundamental dealings with Major League Baseball and his longtime association with Goodenow as a kitchen cabinet-type adviser when Fehr led the baseball players and Goodenow was in charge of the hockey players. The two are known to have spoken often and, according to some in the PA, Goodenow modeled his approach to NHL owners based on Fehr's tactic of never conceding a point without at least an attempt to get something in return

That's just the good old "horse trading" approach to negotiating, requires hard bargaining and reciprocity in concessions.

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12-20-2012, 07:08 PM
  #95
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By "he was wrong" I meant that in response to someone saying Fehr was quoted as saying that the MLB will not dare to cancel the World Series.

I don't have much of an opinion on the legal side of things, that's why we have judges: they are the ones who's job is to make sure the law is correctly interpreted and applied; courts are not the battleground for morality or ethics.
LOL CG, LOL

You are right, he was wrong on that call but history has shown he was right in the result for both players and owners. MLB franchise values are at record highs and still going up.

As for courts not being the battleground for morality and ehtics, I would prefer them over most boardrooms I've been in. LOL

If you mean to call in question the morality or ethics of the PA dispute with the NHL ownership, you are entitled to your opinion but it's not really the point is it.

Fehr had it right when he listed the purposes of all the constraints that a CBA places on player rights and pay. It's about owners paying the least and charging the most.

The old adage of buy low sell high is the simple version.

And while I have no problem with anyone trying to get the most for their services or efforts, trying to stake out a moral high ground as justification for actions is highly disingenuous. IMHO.

And perhaps for those that think what is separating the parties is a few sticking points (legnth of CBA, length of contract, % variation from year to year), you may want to take a deep breath. there are a number of other points, some of which have been alluded to or briefly spoken about here that remain to be negotiated.

And Fehr, quite properly, will raise them when opportunity presents itself.

Unfortuantely, a number of posters here will again lambast Fehr for trying to derail the negotiations etc. When it simply isn't true. He's just making sure that every aspect of the CBA gets negotiated and he gets the best possible deal for his constituancy. Just as Bettman is doing for his.

Nothing more, nothing less.

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12-20-2012, 09:50 PM
  #96
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Fehr the evil beast , all the hate posts make me laugh Bettmans been the boss for 3 count em 3 work stoppages Fehr was brought in to make sure this ones Bettmans last and he will , the NHL itself has made it regular practice to try and blame its biggest asset [players]and anyone who dares lead them .

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12-20-2012, 09:57 PM
  #97
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And Fehr has never been involved in a work stoppage? Didn't MLB players go on strike, forcing the cancellation of their world series? Or was that Bettman's fault too?

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12-20-2012, 10:00 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by KINGS17 View Post
It's booming in the same three locations it has always boomed. Has anyone ever calculated what the salary cap would be without Toronto, Montreal, and New York in the equation. I am beginning to think the owners should be fighting to take these outliers out of the equation and substitute their numbers with the average of the other 27 franchises.

Maybe that's where negotiations should start from the NHL perspective after this season gets cancelled.
What is this guy even rambling about?

Take away franchises because they're too successful. This guy is a prophet of failure.

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12-20-2012, 10:25 PM
  #99
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What is this guy even rambling about?

Take away franchises because they're too successful. This guy is a prophet of failure.
... KINGS17 is playing around with a hypothetical; eliminate the financials of the top 3 teams from the equation, determine an average amongst the remaining 27, then add by three whatever that number might be. He is not suggesting that you wipe out the Leafs etc. Its an interesting thought really, as you have some giant Redwoods in a forest of 30, their profits casting a shadow over the finances of the rest of the tree's, causing problems really. As the Big 3's revenues increase, the Cap ceiling & basement on an escalator up that many simply cant catch up to, get on, compete. Eliminating those gaudy numbers at the top, coming back down to earth a more realistic approach.... but no, you dont kill the geese who lay the golden eggs.... least ways I dont believe thats what he meant. Doesnt strike me as a Lumberjack.

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12-20-2012, 10:26 PM
  #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
Fehr isn't afraid to sacrifice the players in the short term to get what he wants long term. He set baseball back years with his reckless strike in 94. Remember he was an (unpaid and not under employment by the NHLPA) advisor to Goodenow 2004-05 where players lost a year they never got back.

Goodenow: "There will never be a salary cap. I've told the players to be prepared for a long lockout by the owners. It may last a year, it may last two or three years, but we will never accept a salary cap."

So of course Fehr isn't afraid of a long fight. Players are ammo.
I will LOL at the players if Fehr has them out of hockey 1, 2, or more seasons for what he is essentially fighting for a 5-6 year CBA deal. In the end, Fehr will continue to fight to "win" while ultimately the players lose money they can never get back.

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