HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The Business of Hockey
The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, and NHL revenues.

NHL lockout: Fehr unafraid of long fight

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
12-20-2012, 10:50 PM
  #101
Fugu
Administrator
HFBoards
 
Fugu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 28,998
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
Fehr isn't afraid to sacrifice the players in the short term to get what he wants long term. He set baseball back years with his reckless strike in 94. Remember he was an (unpaid and not under employment by the NHLPA) advisor to Goodenow 2004-05 where players lost a year they never got back.

Goodenow: "There will never be a salary cap. I've told the players to be prepared for a long lockout by the owners. It may last a year, it may last two or three years, but we will never accept a salary cap."

So of course Fehr isn't afraid of a long fight. Players are ammo.

He was not an adviser just because he and Goodenow chatted.

You people are as bad as the NHL and their incessant attacks on Fehr.

Fugu is offline  
Old
12-21-2012, 12:47 AM
  #102
Ogopogo*
 
Ogopogo*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 14,214
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Oh dear. You missed the part where NHL teams are owned by 30 capitalists who do whatever they can to ensure they are all profitable. Including staging a lockout. The NHL can be run like a politburo, sharing all revenues and costs, apportioning to each as they need; and the players would all have identical worker salaries, dictated by the central planning committee.
Employees don't get to participate in capitalism - they work for the capitalists. Always has been that way, always will be. Trying to give players the same benefits of capitalism with the guarantees of employment contracts is idiotic.


Last edited by Killion: 12-21-2012 at 01:23 AM. Reason: Lets not go there...
Ogopogo* is offline  
Old
12-21-2012, 12:56 AM
  #103
Fugu
Administrator
HFBoards
 
Fugu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 28,998
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo View Post
Employees don't get to participate in capitalism - they work for the capitalists. Always has been that way, always will be. Trying to give players the same benefits of capitalism with the guarantees of employment contracts is idiotic.
I think you should read the post sequence again.

Fugu is offline  
Old
12-21-2012, 02:07 AM
  #104
Jossipov
Patty's Better
 
Jossipov's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: North Arlington, NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 3,421
vCash: 50
I think the real point is....this lockout is completely unnessicary and trivial nonsense. Nobody is getting screwed. Everyone is making out like bandits already.
Now they are having a war with lots of collateral damage over making out like bandits a little bit more. It's stupid, and in the end no matter what it costs more than its worth



This isn't like some coal miners strike or something...FFS, nobody feels sorry for the players cause none of us care if Zach Parise can't buy a space shuttle or not, and nobody feels bad for the owners because they run business like drunken sailors. The only people in this mess who deserve anything are the fans who keep getting held hostage by a **** up league that lives off us anyway. Pox on everyone.


That felt good


Last edited by Jossipov: 12-21-2012 at 02:14 AM.
Jossipov is offline  
Old
12-21-2012, 02:23 AM
  #105
Twilight Sparkle
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 374
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo View Post
Employees don't get to participate in capitalism - they work for the capitalists. Always has been that way, always will be. Trying to give players the same benefits of capitalism with the guarantees of employment contracts is idiotic.
That's not even true. Workers participate in capitalism with their human capital in the job market.

Capitalism is not exclusive to business owners. It's also reflected in the consumer market.

Twilight Sparkle is online now  
Old
12-21-2012, 03:18 AM
  #106
Ragamuffin Gunner
Lost in The Flood
 
Ragamuffin Gunner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Boston
Country: United States
Posts: 15,444
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
That's right, I don't think he does. He'll fight to get the union all that he can, even if there isn't a League left to employ most of the players in the end. Hopefully the players won't let him take it that far.
I honestly think a "win" in Fehr's mind is a deal that is better than what the league offered before the lockout, on paper.

He can go, "see this here? That's an extra 89M in make whole I got the union and 7 year contracts for some players!" He doesn't give a **** that the players lost ~600M in wages to get that extra 89M.

Ragamuffin Gunner is offline  
Old
12-21-2012, 03:56 AM
  #107
HabsByTheBay
Registered User
 
HabsByTheBay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: London
Country: United States
Posts: 1,156
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Melrose Munch View Post
I won't take it that far. Tarheel points out baseball ratings have dropped and they have. The NBA is on the heels everyday. Baseball's biggest problems is demographics. And to be fair attendance was nasty for some parts of the summer.
Attendance sagged for parts of summer, but that was only in comparison to MLB killing it through July - attendance was up almost 10 percent from that time last year. Attendance ended 2012 up 2 percent from the year before.

If you want demographics, there are two things in favor of MLB.

1) MLB has a 50 year old record of enticing older viewers. This demographic is increasingly the only one in America with any money; 18-34 might as well be called the "Living at home and working part-time with student loan debt" demographic.

2) The NBA has a 30 year record of its fans dropping the league like a hot potato once they get married and buy a house. The hottest league of the 80s turns into "The NHL is hot, the NBA is not" 90s, turns into the Thug Life 2000s turns into Everybody Who Isn't A Heat or Lakers Fan Hates Our Biggest Stars 2010s. The NBA has less than 60% of MLB's annual revenue and this is despite the NBA having possibly the biggest international footprint of any big 4 US sport. The NHL is actually closer to the NBA in revenue than the NBA is to MLB.

Football is king, but baseball is queen.

HabsByTheBay is offline  
Old
12-21-2012, 05:32 AM
  #108
NORiculous
Registered User
 
NORiculous's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,656
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
I think Fehr cares about the people that pay him to look out for their collective interests.
“We have to remind people that the words we use — free agency, the reserve system, the amateur draft and all that stuff — are simply economic devices to control prices,” Fehr said. “That is all they are. Owners like them, because the way they control the price is to lower the price of what they buy and to increase the price of what they sell. That is what cartels do.”
Then the old baseball guy reached back for one last fastball.
“Player rights are not inconsistent with a booming industry,” Fehr said. “The proof is what the Dodgers sold for.”
We have to remind Ferh that players are not in a bad economical situation here... and until the ones paying the salaries get a deal which enables them as a majority to make a profit then there is no reason to have a league, from a business stand point.

Ferh could win the battle if the owners give in but, with the attitude he has, he will never win the war; the players are also losers if the league isn't a solide business matrix.

It is so easy and unresponsible to blame everything on the big bad owners. I think he is fighting the bad fight. The NHL is not like, let's say tennis, where the tournement owners make 40 mill in profit while the players get much much less.


I have no idea how the players can get lead by such ideas that are stuck with a mindset that is no longer valide for its industry.

The players are losing more by holding out and the more they wait, the worst it gets, no matter what concessions they get from the owners; concessions that will criple some franchises and in the end come back to hurt the players. Way to go Ferh, your "leadership" is more on the destructive side of things, if you ask me.

NORiculous is offline  
Old
12-21-2012, 06:49 AM
  #109
Number8
Registered User
 
Number8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,967
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stickmata View Post
And you don't think the owner of a private, for-profit business should be in it for their own gain?
MOD a team in the NHL (or NFL, NBA, etc.,) is a typical "private" business?

Why on earth do you think there is a CBA to begin with?????? Good Lord.


Last edited by Fugu: 12-21-2012 at 03:04 PM. Reason: ...
Number8 is offline  
Old
12-21-2012, 06:56 AM
  #110
Number8
Registered User
 
Number8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,967
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
Fehr isn't afraid to sacrifice the players in the short term to get what he wants long term. He set baseball back years with his reckless strike in 94. Remember he was an (unpaid and not under employment by the NHLPA) advisor to Goodenow 2004-05 where players lost a year they never got back.

Goodenow: "There will never be a salary cap. I've told the players to be prepared for a long lockout by the owners. It may last a year, it may last two or three years, but we will never accept a salary cap."

So of course Fehr isn't afraid of a long fight. Players are ammo.
You act as if Fehr is a dictator -- swooping in with a coup under cover of darkness and now running his country however he sees fit.

You do understand that the PA has hired Fehr, right?

Number8 is offline  
Old
12-21-2012, 07:58 AM
  #111
txpd
Registered User
 
txpd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 39,816
vCash: 500
lets not blame this on donald fehr. the players knew who he was and what he was being hired for. the recent nba and nfl cba's were hard on the players as was the last nhl cba. fehr was hired to turn the tables.

i have been saying this for a while. there was almost no chance of hockey this season and i'd be surprised if there was hockey before this place in the calender next season.

the players are making money playing somewhere if they need it. most players after a couple of nhl seasons should have enough money to live on for a long time. this is important to them.

i think its a mistake, but thats the reality

txpd is offline  
Old
12-21-2012, 08:03 AM
  #112
Confucius
Registered User
 
Confucius's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,460
vCash: 500
Well I'm glad the lockout will go on and not play havoc with the rosters at the WJC's.

Confucius is offline  
Old
12-21-2012, 08:28 AM
  #113
KingsFan7824
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 3,790
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by txpd View Post
lets not blame this on donald fehr. the players knew who he was and what he was being hired for. the recent nba and nfl cba's were hard on the players as was the last nhl cba. fehr was hired to turn the tables.

i have been saying this for a while. there was almost no chance of hockey this season and i'd be surprised if there was hockey before this place in the calender next season.

the players are making money playing somewhere if they need it. most players after a couple of nhl seasons should have enough money to live on for a long time. this is important to them.

i think its a mistake, but thats the reality
Yeah, you don't hire Donald Fehr by accident.

The players have to be willing to destroy the league, or else they will have wasted everyone's time, and especially their own in terms of short playing careers. If it takes 1, 2 or 3 years, or long court battles, or the subtraction of jobs through contraction at some point, or less revenue to pull a salary from, then that's what it has to take. That's the price of principle.

The players seem to hate Bettman, and don't trust the owners, but they've been signing contracts to play in the NHL since 2005, when the players were, as they define it, screwed over. Taking the NHL's dirty money all this time, and waiting until now to give the league the finger, that's sort of a principled stand I guess.

It's their careers though. It's their choice. Owners have interests elsewhere, and it's a businessman's fantasy league to them. Fans don't matter either way. I hope that whatever ends up happening will be worth it to the players.

KingsFan7824 is offline  
Old
12-21-2012, 08:38 AM
  #114
hockeyfan2k11
Registered User
 
hockeyfan2k11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 9,045
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingsFan7824 View Post
Yeah, you don't hire Donald Fehr by accident.

The players have to be willing to destroy the league, or else they will have wasted everyone's time, and especially their own in terms of short playing careers. If it takes 1, 2 or 3 years, or long court battles, or the subtraction of jobs through contraction at some point, or less revenue to pull a salary from, then that's what it has to take. That's the price of principle.

The players seem to hate Bettman, and don't trust the owners, but they've been signing contracts to play in the NHL since 2005, when the players were, as they define it, screwed over. Taking the NHL's dirty money all this time, and waiting until now to give the league the finger, that's sort of a principled stand I guess.

It's their careers though. It's their choice. Owners have interests elsewhere, and it's a businessman's fantasy league to them. Fans don't matter either way. I hope that whatever ends up happening will be worth it to the players.
I side with the players in some respects, but how do you get "screwed over" when you more than double your salary? I'd love to get "screwed over" like that.

It's ego now...and what both sides are forgetting are the fans. For those who thought the fans mattered, it should be crystal clear now. The only thing that matters is your $$. Wasn't like that before.

hockeyfan2k11 is offline  
Old
12-21-2012, 08:50 AM
  #115
atomic
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 287
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Melrose Munch View Post
I won't take it that far. Tarheel points out baseball ratings have dropped and they have. The NBA is on the heels everyday. Baseball's biggest problems is demographics. And to be fair attendance was nasty for some parts of the summer.
the decline in national ratings are like the other poster stated because your local team is on tv everyday. why would I want to see the dodgers on tv when i could watch my orioles instead. local tv contracts are going through the roof. Baseball is not on decline. And there are tons of young fans at baseball games. Almost every team makes a profit in baseball.

atomic is offline  
Old
12-21-2012, 08:50 AM
  #116
Crease
Registered User
 
Crease's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,773
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
I side with the players in some respects, but how do you get "screwed over" when you more than double your salary? I'd love to get "screwed over" like that.
The argument is that they would have made even more money under the 1995 CBA. Yes, the average yearly salary doubled from 2005 to 2011 but that ignores the money left on the table under the old system and also ignores the 24% rollback they took to get to the starting line in 2005.

Crease is offline  
Old
12-21-2012, 08:51 AM
  #117
atomic
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 287
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
I side with the players in some respects, but how do you get "screwed over" when you more than double your salary? I'd love to get "screwed over" like that.

It's ego now...and what both sides are forgetting are the fans. For those who thought the fans mattered, it should be crystal clear now. The only thing that matters is your $$. Wasn't like that before.
yeah the greed is horrible. i wish that congress would tax any income over a million a year at 50 percent. At least then part of the huge salaries would come back to the people.

atomic is offline  
Old
12-21-2012, 08:52 AM
  #118
atomic
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 287
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crease View Post
The argument is that they would have made even more money under the 1995 CBA. Yes, the average yearly salary doubled from 2005 to 2011 but that ignores the money left on the table under the old system and also ignores the 24% rollback they took to get to the starting line in 2005.
but why do they need more money? they are making more than enough. If they cause teams to fold how will that help them? There would be a lot less money available.

atomic is offline  
Old
12-21-2012, 08:53 AM
  #119
hockeyfan2k11
Registered User
 
hockeyfan2k11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 9,045
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crease View Post
The argument is that they would have made even more money under the 1995 CBA. Yes, the average yearly salary doubled from 2005 to 2011 but that ignores the money left on the table under the old system and also ignores the 24% rollback they took to get to the starting line in 2005.
I still think they came out pretty well. The NHL is a much more successful business now than it was 8 years ago. Without the rollback and no cap, where would the league be today? Who knows?

I just don't think they got "screwed". They lost 24% to make 200%. Players are getting up front bonus money and 10+ year guaranteed contracts now. I think they did alright.

hockeyfan2k11 is offline  
Old
12-21-2012, 08:56 AM
  #120
Crease
Registered User
 
Crease's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,773
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by atomic View Post
but why do they need more money? they are making more than enough. If they cause teams to fold how will that help them? There would be a lot less money available.
They don't need anything. But if the owners wish to take some money off the table, they need to offer what the players deem acceptible counterterms or prove to the players that its in the best interest of everyone if they make less money. Thats what collective bargaining is. The NHL is learning the hard way that they have to play ball with their employees if they wish to legally impose salary restrictions.

Crease is offline  
Old
12-21-2012, 08:59 AM
  #121
Freudian
Patty likes beef
 
Freudian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Country: Sweden
Posts: 28,498
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crease View Post
The argument is that they would have made even more money under the 1995 CBA. Yes, the average yearly salary doubled from 2005 to 2011 but that ignores the money left on the table under the old system and also ignores the 24% rollback they took to get to the starting line in 2005.
That assumes no teams went out of business had not the system changed. With two teams declaring bankruptcy in the 2002-03 season (Ottawa and Buffalo), several other teams under significant financial pressure and there was no sign of player salaries going down under the old system I don't think that is a reasonable assumption.

With folding/contraction, the player collective would take a massive hit even if they had a high share of revenues.

Freudian is offline  
Old
12-21-2012, 09:04 AM
  #122
pld459666
Registered User
 
pld459666's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Danbury, CT
Country: United States
Posts: 15,976
vCash: 873
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lacaar View Post
Ahh the old FREE market crap that is sinking the American economy. American's are raised to have holy reverence to the capitalist and free market system/ideology. Fehr is preying on those misgivings that American's are in the midst of finding out about right now.


Where's the" proof is what the Coyote's can't sell for?"For every team that sells for a great return. There's one that has lost money consistently and sold for a pittance of a return on original investment. Cherry picking works for both sides of that argument.
And yet, since the last lo0ckout, the Yotes franchise value has risen 69%.

Interesting.

pld459666 is offline  
Old
12-21-2012, 09:13 AM
  #123
KingsFan7824
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 3,790
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by atomic View Post
but why do they need more money? they are making more than enough. If they cause teams to fold how will that help them? There would be a lot less money available.
I think it's more about the freedom than the money. At least with Fehr on board. Players were signing those huge contracts, in both money and years. More financial and contractual security than they know what to do with, and all at an earlier age than ever before. They weren't getting screwed. Just go to the fact that the UFA age went down from 31 to 27 after 2005.

But Fehr hates salary caps. I think the owners could offer 77% of revenue, and UFA at 22, and if there was a cap involved, Fehr wouldn't sign off on that deal. He'd say just wait, there's a better offer to be had.

Not that the PA hasn't fought the cap idea without Fehr as their leader. The PA didn't want it in 94-95. They were just as willing(and rich enough to afford) to go toe to toe with the owners in 04-05, which is why the season got cancelled. Now, the PA, which didn't want the cap before, hires Mr. Anti-Salary Cap.

It seems to me that as ideological as the last lockout was(so was the first one really), it's no different this time. It's not just about how to divide the pie. It can't be. It wouldn't have gone this long if it was.

Maybe Fehr agrees to a deal in the next few weeks. However, until Fehr actually agrees to a deal that involves a cap, what would lead anyone to think that Fehr will agree to a deal that involves a cap?

KingsFan7824 is offline  
Old
12-21-2012, 09:24 AM
  #124
Greyhounds
Registered User
 
Greyhounds's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Nashua
Country: United States
Posts: 11,047
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingsFan7824 View Post
I think it's more about the freedom than the money. At least with Fehr on board. Players were signing those huge contracts, in both money and years. More financial and contractual security than they know what to do with, and all at an earlier age than ever before. They weren't getting screwed. Just go to the fact that the UFA age went down from 31 to 27 after 2005.

But Fehr hates salary caps. I think the owners could offer 77% of revenue, and UFA at 22, and if there was a cap involved, Fehr wouldn't sign off on that deal. He'd say just wait, there's a better offer to be had.

Not that the PA hasn't fought the cap idea without Fehr as their leader. The PA didn't want it in 94-95. They were just as willing(and rich enough to afford) to go toe to toe with the owners in 04-05, which is why the season got cancelled. Now, the PA, which didn't want the cap before, hires Mr. Anti-Salary Cap.

It seems to me that as ideological as the last lockout was(so was the first one really), it's no different this time. It's not just about how to divide the pie. It can't be. It wouldn't have gone this long if it was.

Maybe Fehr agrees to a deal in the next few weeks. However, until Fehr actually agrees to a deal that involves a cap, what would lead anyone to think that Fehr will agree to a deal that involves a cap?
I don't believe that another nhl game will be played, until Fehr is removed.

Greyhounds is offline  
Old
12-21-2012, 09:28 AM
  #125
Number8
Registered User
 
Number8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,967
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by atomic View Post
yeah the greed is horrible. i wish that congress would tax any income over a million a year at 50 percent. At least then part of the huge salaries would come back to the people.
Exactly....... if only the "National People's Liberation Hockey Collective" would curb their capitalistic ways and toss those of us in line for our daily potato rations a few Rubels.......

Number8 is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:19 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.