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The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, and NHL revenues.

NHL lockout: Fehr unafraid of long fight

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Old
12-21-2012, 10:29 AM
  #126
tantalum
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Originally Posted by Crease View Post
They don't need anything. But if the owners wish to take some money off the table, they need to offer what the players deem acceptible counterterms or prove to the players that its in the best interest of everyone if they make less money. Thats what collective bargaining is. The NHL is learning the hard way that they have to play ball with their employees if they wish to legally impose salary restrictions.
That's the philosophy difference between the two camps. The players continually look at what they had before and compare. The owners, as with any business, don't really much care what came before. It's a whole new pie to divide up and they try to do so in a fair manner.

And the fact of the matter is when you have 4 teams driving ALL of the league profit and teams needing basement payrolls and/or extended playoff runs to break even or make a pittance that comparison isn't likely to look very good....but it doesn't mean it's not fair. And that is what the players are hung up on...fair to them is based on a comparison rather than the reality that is today.

Next time around, if you have 24 or 25 truly healthy teams (i.e. able to make a bit of money with good payroll levels and minimal playoffs) there is no drive to lock the players out and get further monetary concessions etc and in all likelihood the comparison for the players will look better.

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12-21-2012, 10:42 AM
  #127
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Originally Posted by tantalum View Post
That's the philosophy difference between the two camps. The players continually look at what they had before and compare. The owners, as with any business, don't really much care what came before. It's a whole new pie to divide up and they try to do so in a fair manner.

And the fact of the matter is when you have 4 teams driving ALL of the league profit and teams needing basement payrolls and/or extended playoff runs to break even or make a pittance that comparison isn't likely to look very good....but it doesn't mean it's not fair. And that is what the players are hung up on...fair to them is based on a comparison rather than the reality that is today.

Next time around, if you have 24 or 25 truly healthy teams (i.e. able to make a bit of money with good payroll levels and minimal playoffs) there is no drive to lock the players out and get further monetary concessions etc and in all likelihood the comparison for the players will look better.
I would agree with that if the mechanics of professional sports teams were not completely different than other more traditional business environments -- that, I agree, require the ability to look at each year and each contract more in terms of what it means to their business today (and to the extent they can predict tomorrow) than yesterday.

However the fact that there are drafts, free agency restrictions, salary caps, etc., (much of which benefits and restricts BOTH players and owners, I admit) means that this is a "business" unlike most others.

Typically businesses would no more share revenues (or even information) with their competitors. However, given that without a viable league no one will succeed (even Toronto, Philly, Montreal, Boston, etc.) then part of a "fair" solution might mean that the Toronto's need to be a part of the solution as well -- not just the players.

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12-21-2012, 11:41 AM
  #128
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You act as if Fehr is a dictator -- swooping in with a coup under cover of darkness and now running his country however he sees fit.

You do understand that the PA has hired Fehr, right?
Would the term 'pied piper' or 'puppet master' be a little more accurate?

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12-21-2012, 01:09 PM
  #129
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LOL CG, LOL

You are right, he was wrong on that call but history has shown he was right in the result for both players and owners. MLB franchise values are at record highs and still going up.

As for courts not being the battleground for morality and ehtics, I would prefer them over most boardrooms I've been in. LOL

If you mean to call in question the morality or ethics of the PA dispute with the NHL ownership, you are entitled to your opinion but it's not really the point is it.

Fehr had it right when he listed the purposes of all the constraints that a CBA places on player rights and pay. It's about owners paying the least and charging the most.

The old adage of buy low sell high is the simple version.

And while I have no problem with anyone trying to get the most for their services or efforts, trying to stake out a moral high ground as justification for actions is highly disingenuous. IMHO.

And perhaps for those that think what is separating the parties is a few sticking points (legnth of CBA, length of contract, % variation from year to year), you may want to take a deep breath. there are a number of other points, some of which have been alluded to or briefly spoken about here that remain to be negotiated.

And Fehr, quite properly, will raise them when opportunity presents itself.

Unfortuantely, a number of posters here will again lambast Fehr for trying to derail the negotiations etc. When it simply isn't true. He's just making sure that every aspect of the CBA gets negotiated and he gets the best possible deal for his constituancy. Just as Bettman is doing for his.

Nothing more, nothing less.
Definitely agree, I just don't like the way Fehr is going about getting results but what do I know, I've never run a union nor negotiated multi billion dollar deals!
But that has no bearing on the court case and it shouldn't. I am very much in agreeance with the rule of law and the importance of courts and judges, I hope I didn't give the impression that I thought of them as trivial!

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12-21-2012, 03:12 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by copperandblue View Post
Would the term 'pied piper' or 'puppet master' be a little more accurate?

No, it would be hyberbole and also would fail to address any of the actual negotiation issues substantively. Not to mention, imo, a baseless conclusion unless you're privy to the inner sanctum.

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12-21-2012, 03:17 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by tantalum View Post
That's the philosophy difference between the two camps. The players continually look at what they had before and compare. The owners, as with any business, don't really much care what came before. It's a whole new pie to divide up and they try to do so in a fair manner.
Right. If it were so fair, the lockout would have ended a long time ago. Way to 'load' the statement.

Quote:
And the fact of the matter is when you have 4 teams driving ALL of the league profit and teams needing basement payrolls and/or extended playoff runs to break even or make a pittance that comparison isn't likely to look very good....but it doesn't mean it's not fair. And that is what the players are hung up on...fair to them is based on a comparison rather than the reality that is today.

Next time around, if you have 24 or 25 truly healthy teams (i.e. able to make a bit of money with good payroll levels and minimal playoffs) there is no drive to lock the players out and get further monetary concessions etc and in all likelihood the comparison for the players will look better.

Maybe next time the owners who made the decisions to buy certain teams (and the amount they paid is reflective of their profit level) need to live with those decisions. It's not the players' fault the league came up with an absurd system last time that hastened the economic losses for several teams, nor that the NHL made the location and ownership decisions it made. Nor the fact that certain owners gave out ridiculous contracts right on the eve of a lockout.


What would be fair would be a reallocation of money that doesn't keep increasing the massive profits of the wealthiest teams solely at the players' expense. The big teams are prevented from paying what they indeed would want to pay, forcing players to get paid at a level only the weakest and most mis-managed teams can afford. And you label this as fair.


Please do NOT overlook that an owner paid $1 billion-ish for the Leafs, while Vinik paid less than $100 million for Tampa. They each are paying for an opportunity to gain or lose based on the local conditions.

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12-21-2012, 03:29 PM
  #132
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MOD a team in the NHL (or NFL, NBA, etc.,) is a typical "private" business.

Why on earth do you think there is a CBA to begin with?????? Good Lord.
Are you joking?

You think every industry that has a CBA in place isn't a private enterprise?

MOD

All of these franchises are private, for-profit enterprises. With investors who expect a return on their investment. The presence or lack of a CBA has absolutely nothing to do with anything except for the legal aspects of labor relations and negotiation. And a CBA is not unique to the NHL or to sports for that matter.

MOD


Last edited by Fugu: 12-21-2012 at 04:06 PM. Reason: watch the personal assaults
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12-21-2012, 03:33 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Right. If it were so fair, the lockout would have ended a long time ago. Way to 'load' the statement.




Maybe next time the owners who made the decisions to buy certain teams (and the amount they paid is reflective of their profit level) need to live with those decisions. It's not the players' fault the league came up with an absurd system last time that hastened the economic losses for several teams, nor that the NHL made the location and ownership decisions it made. Nor the fact that certain owners gave out ridiculous contracts right on the eve of a lockout.


What would be fair would be a reallocation of money that doesn't keep increasing the massive profits of the wealthiest teams solely at the players' expense. The big teams are prevented from paying what they indeed would want to pay, forcing players to get paid at a level only the weakest and most mis-managed teams can afford. And you label this as fair.


Please do NOT overlook that an owner paid $1 billion-ish for the Leafs, while Vinik paid less than $100 million for Tampa. They each are paying for an opportunity to gain or lose based on the local conditions.
well i am guessing the league wouldn't do very well with just one team in it. there is a league with 30 teams and you have deal with that reality.

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12-21-2012, 04:03 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by atomic View Post
well i am guessing the league wouldn't do very well with just one team in it. there is a league with 30 teams and you have deal with that reality.

No, I don't. The league has to deal with their current reality of failing teams among their 30. Exaggerating to say only one would survive gives you the luxury of avoiding a reality-based discussion.

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12-21-2012, 04:15 PM
  #135
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So many people here just don't get it. Either the NHL wakes up and makes a deal the NHLPA will be happy with or there will not be anymore hockey, anymore NHL, ever again. Every franchise will be worth $0.

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12-21-2012, 04:25 PM
  #136
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No, it would be hyberbole and also would fail to address any of the actual negotiation issues substantively. Not to mention, imo, a baseless conclusion unless you're privy to the inner sanctum.
Yes calling Fehr a dictator is hyperbole, but you can't deny that he spins facts and that the players are easily mislead.

How many tweets and quotes have there been from players calming thinks like, "we've accepted 50/50 already..." have you seen? Hell, half the posters here think the NHLPA has accepted linked 50/50.

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12-21-2012, 04:26 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by coldsteelonice84 View Post
So many people here just don't get it. Either the NHL wakes up and makes a deal the NHLPA will be happy with or there will not be anymore hockey, anymore NHL, ever again. Every franchise will be worth $0.
That's probably true - but it hurts the players more than it hurts the owners.

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12-21-2012, 04:34 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by Stickmata View Post
Are you joking?

You think every industry that has a CBA in place isn't a private enterprise?

MOD

All of these franchises are private, for-profit enterprises. With investors who expect a return on their investment. The presence or lack of a CBA has absolutely nothing to do with anything except for the legal aspects of labor relations and negotiation. And a CBA is not unique to the NHL or to sports for that matter.

MOD
No, I'm saying that you cannot compare an industry that has things such as a draft, free agency restrictions, and operates as a monopoly (that's not a criticism, just a reflection of fact) to the typical private business enterprise.

Whether you like it or not, NHL players (like other professional athletes and other entertainment stars) are not even remotely in the same category as the typical "worker".

I love going to high school hockey games and enjoy them immensely. However, I won't pay $75 for a ticket, buy Center Ice, etc., etc., to watch them.

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12-21-2012, 04:37 PM
  #139
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yeah the greed is horrible. i wish that congress would tax any income over a million a year at 50 percent. At least then part of the huge salaries would come back to the people.
Wrong. Greed is driving force behind any business, thus the economy... If everybody will sit and wait for a handout from the government eventually there will be no reason to work, as it's been happening more and more... Few month ago caught a show, about families in the 2nd and 3rd generation who have never worked... popping out bunch of kids at early age and then just collect welfare, why work?

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12-21-2012, 04:47 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by Vladiator16 View Post
Wrong. Greed is driving force behind any business, thus the economy... If everybody will sit and wait for a handout from the government eventually there will be no reason to work, as it's been happening more and more... Few month ago caught a show, about families in the 2nd and 3rd generation who have never worked... popping out bunch of kids at early age and then just collect welfare, why work?
I think's important to differentiate greed and ambition

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12-21-2012, 04:49 PM
  #141
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I think's important to differentiate greed and ambition
Semantics.

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12-21-2012, 04:52 PM
  #142
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Originally Posted by Vladiator16 View Post
Wrong. Greed is driving force behind any business, thus the economy... If everybody will sit and wait for a handout from the government eventually there will be no reason to work, as it's been happening more and more... Few month ago caught a show, about families in the 2nd and 3rd generation who have never worked... popping out bunch of kids at early age and then just collect welfare, why work?
Positively dead-on accurate^. Why on earth would anyone want to overtax the very people that create jobs and industry? Imagine if the government did this to people like Henry Ford, JP Morgan, John Rockefeller, Andrew Carnegie, George Westinghouse, etc...where would this country be right now?

You don't overburden the entrepreneurs and risk takers.....you ASSIST them in their endeavors. Why? Because they are the folks that fuel the industry that creates jobs and prosperity for all.

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12-21-2012, 05:31 PM
  #143
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Semantics.
You can call it that but I'm fairly confident that ambition is commendable whereas greed isn't.

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12-21-2012, 05:33 PM
  #144
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Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
Yes calling Fehr a dictator is hyperbole, but you can't deny that he spins facts and that the players are easily mislead.

How many tweets and quotes have there been from players calming thinks like, "we've accepted 50/50 already..." have you seen? Hell, half the posters here think the NHLPA has accepted linked 50/50.

The PA isn't responsible for the conclusions others draw. In fact, I doubt we have a clear view of either side's positions because the reporting is piecemeal, a snapshot here and there, and prone to be abused by someone wanting to leak info that favors their position.

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12-21-2012, 05:37 PM
  #145
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Positively dead-on accurate^. Why on earth would anyone want to overtax the very people that create jobs and industry? Imagine if the government did this to people like Henry Ford, JP Morgan, John Rockefeller, Andrew Carnegie, George Westinghouse, etc...where would this country be right now?

You don't overburden the entrepreneurs and risk takers.....you ASSIST them in their endeavors. Why? Because they are the folks that fuel the industry that creates jobs and prosperity for all.
Because taxing super rich people leads to super rich amount of cash and is more beneficial to population than not taxing.

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12-21-2012, 05:37 PM
  #146
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Because taxing super rich people leads to super rich amount of cash and is more beneficial to population than not taxing.
Not it doesn't, look at France to find out what happens when rich people get taxed to high hell. The key is balance: finding the right amount of taxes that does not discourage anybody but also helps finance government appropriately

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