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When the NHL cancels the season, Fehr will Fight to Repeal the Cap

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Old
12-23-2012, 02:30 PM
  #351
Stickmata
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Originally Posted by schminksbro View Post
The deal would have been done already if the owners granted the players a 10% raise too. What is your point?
My point is that the middle ground in this negotiation that would have gotten a deal done between the players and the owners is south of what DF has requested, and the only reason we're not there yet is Fehr.

In any negotiation, there is a balance point where the leverage held by each side reaches a natural equilibrium and a deal is worked out. Don Fehr is the sole reason why this negotiation has not reached this point, as he has totally overestimated the amount of leverage his side had in these negotiations and done a major disservice to his own constituents and the game of hockey.

Honestly, debating the role of Fehr is moot at this point anyway, as his failed leadership has led us to a point where the only option the NHLPA has is to decertify and essentially take him out of the equation. From the NHL's perspective, he is no longer an issue.

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Old
12-23-2012, 02:30 PM
  #352
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Originally Posted by Dado View Post
This has been stated and refuted many times. There is, in fact, enough league-wide revenue to support a cap of $65M-$70M. The owners could fix this problem completely by themselves without involving the players at all - if they wanted to.
and why would they want to? revenues in the NHL are locally generated. why would an owner like Darryl Katz in Edmonton, who sells out every game at an average ticket of $100, who's fan base supports the team during a difficult rebuild, send money to Florida, who has to hire people to go outside and give tickets away. Then Florida (or Phoenix, Tampa, Dallas, Anaheim), having a comfy climate and annonimity for the players, is able to sign Edmonton's free agents with Katz's money.

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12-23-2012, 02:49 PM
  #353
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Originally Posted by RustE View Post
and why would they want to? revenues in the NHL are locally generated. why would an owner like Darryl Katz in Edmonton, who sells out every game at an average ticket of $100, who's fan base supports the team during a difficult rebuild, send money to Florida, who has to hire people to go outside and give tickets away. Then Florida (or Phoenix, Tampa, Dallas, Anaheim), having a comfy climate and annonimity for the players, is able to sign Edmonton's free agents with Katz's money.
The same reason the Yankees give money to the KC Royals.

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12-23-2012, 02:56 PM
  #354
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Originally Posted by ScottyBowman View Post
The same reason the Yankees give money to the KC Royals.
I'd say the Yankees give the Royals money in return the Royals let the Yankees spend whatever they like on their team. Seems fair. Drop the cap and receive cash.

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12-23-2012, 03:52 PM
  #355
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Originally Posted by Stix and Stones View Post
I'd say the Yankees give the Royals money in return the Royals let the Yankees spend whatever they like on their team. Seems fair. Drop the cap and receive cash.
And fans of the Royals realize that they will NEVER be a contender, year after year. Yeah, that seems fair.


or did you just forget the smilie?

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12-23-2012, 04:15 PM
  #356
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Originally Posted by RustE View Post
and why would they want to? revenues in the NHL are locally generated. why would an owner like Darryl Katz in Edmonton, who sells out every game at an average ticket of $100, who's fan base supports the team during a difficult rebuild, send money to Florida, who has to hire people to go outside and give tickets away. Then Florida (or Phoenix, Tampa, Dallas, Anaheim), having a comfy climate and annonimity for the players, is able to sign Edmonton's free agents with Katz's money.
To promote socialism, I guess.

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Old
12-23-2012, 04:24 PM
  #357
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National tv contracts and national sponsors mean big revenues to split among teams who cover the entire country. Then the rich teams keep their LOCAL tv and radio cash. The NHL shares their national tv cash already--just not the billions that are not available them that is available to other sports. Fehr did not get the Yankees or Dodgers to give up their hundreds of millions of dollars a year in local media revenue to the other teams in the league--but would like the Leafs, Rangers etc. to do just that. Bettman had the green light to try to get the rich national media profits by "growing the game". Is it working? The PA should tel lus if they think it is worthwhile trying to keep teams in the large market areas that are losing money for now--and tell us how they will help if it is worthwhile--not tell the teams in good areas to support the teams struggling while they wait with their hands out for the day when those efforts might pay off. A large percentage of PA is making hundreds of millions of dollars in those areas so they have a rationale for trying to keep those teams not just solvent, but earning enough of a return on the investment to make it worthwhile.

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12-23-2012, 04:47 PM
  #358
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Originally Posted by Stickmata View Post
My point is that the middle ground in this negotiation that would have gotten a deal done between the players and the owners is south of what DF has requested, and the only reason we're not there yet is Fehr.

In any negotiation, there is a balance point where the leverage held by each side reaches a natural equilibrium and a deal is worked out. Don Fehr is the sole reason why this negotiation has not reached this point, as he has totally overestimated the amount of leverage his side had in these negotiations and done a major disservice to his own constituents and the game of hockey.

Honestly, debating the role of Fehr is moot at this point anyway, as his failed leadership has led us to a point where the only option the NHLPA has is to decertify and essentially take him out of the equation. From the NHL's perspective, he is no longer an issue.
There is virtually nothing that reflects reality in this post. It's actually quite incredible really!

If you think the players voted the disclaimer of interest because everyone is looking to find a way to ditch Fehr, then you need to read more.

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12-23-2012, 04:53 PM
  #359
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Originally Posted by hizzoner View Post
Fehr did not get the Yankees or Dodgers to give up their hundreds of millions of dollars a year in local media revenue to the other teams in the league...
Fehr got the Yankees to pay nearly as much in revenue sharing as the Leafs gross in total.

That is an incredible accomplishment, and even *more* than what he and the PA are trying to get the NHL owners to do.

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12-23-2012, 04:56 PM
  #360
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why would an owner like Darryl Katz in Edmonton, who sells out every game at an average ticket of $100, who's fan base supports the team during a difficult rebuild, send money to Florida, who has to hire people to go outside and give tickets away.
Because it's the cost of a system that lets him produce a crappy product for years and years and years in order to collect lots of ELC and RFA constrained high end draft picks.

If you want to play the "no socialism!" card for Edmonton, the FIRST step is to advocate revamping a draft system that rewards teams for sheer suckage.

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12-23-2012, 05:07 PM
  #361
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Originally Posted by Butch 19 View Post
And fans of the Royals realize that they will NEVER be a contender, year after year. Yeah, that seems fair.


or did you just forget the smilie?
Like Tampa? Like...Philly?


Or incompetence is only a Leafs thing to you.

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Originally Posted by RustE View Post
and why would they want to? revenues in the NHL are locally generated. why would an owner like Darryl Katz in Edmonton, who sells out every game at an average ticket of $100, who's fan base supports the team during a difficult rebuild, send money to Florida, who has to hire people to go outside and give tickets away. Then Florida (or Phoenix, Tampa, Dallas, Anaheim), having a comfy climate and annonimity for the players, is able to sign Edmonton's free agents with Katz's money.
This is the players argument.

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Originally Posted by rfournier103 View Post
Yup. The BoG would cry if their ice cream was cold.
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Originally Posted by schminksbro View Post
Exactly. The owners refuse to fix the actual problems. Their greed won't allow them to share revenue in any meaningful way. Cutting player compensation yet again won't put more butts in seats. Bettman has failed to make the game relevant. His marketing strategies have been abysmal. Sure he instantly lined owner's pockets with the big expansion but he hasn't really improved anything. If the NHL continues down the road they insist on traveling they will simply be right back here again at the end of whatever deal they eventually sign. All the union hate in the world won't change that. The ill advised expansion into markets that will never support the game is the problem and the players can never concede enough to support them. Only the owners have pockets that deep and they are too blinded by short sighted greed to ever do anything about it.
Exactly.

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Old
12-23-2012, 05:11 PM
  #362
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Originally Posted by schminksbro View Post
And the owners want to crush this generation so they can further crush the next generation.
What's so "crushing" about 50% of $3B in revenue?

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Originally Posted by rfournier103 View Post
I think that's a GREAT idea. Let's say: Florida, Nashville, Tampa Bay, Phoenix, Anaheim, and Dallas. Some of these teams make money when they're championship contenders, but even when they're just "OK", you can hear crickets in their rinks... Maybe relocate a couple to Canada?
Can't speak for the others, but have you ever attended a game in Tampa? If you think you can hear crickets in our rink, you clearly haven't and probably should leave statements like yours for people who actually know what they're talking about.

MOD


Last edited by Fugu: 12-24-2012 at 01:55 AM. Reason: he's not the topic of the thread
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Old
12-23-2012, 05:20 PM
  #363
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Originally Posted by Stickmata View Post
My point is that the middle ground in this negotiation that would have gotten a deal done between the players and the owners is south of what DF has requested, and the only reason we're not there yet is Fehr.

In any negotiation, there is a balance point where the leverage held by each side reaches a natural equilibrium and a deal is worked out. Don Fehr is the sole reason why this negotiation has not reached this point, as he has totally overestimated the amount of leverage his side had in these negotiations and done a major disservice to his own constituents and the game of hockey.
You must mean that the recent last and best final offer that the owners gave, with the so called make-whole pot sweetened to $300mil was the best Fehrs leverage could garner? So obviously then he was doing just fine until he failed to accept that last offer i guess you are suggesting, as he ran out of leverage at that point and aggravated the moderate billionaires who gave up a whole day of their time to cajole players into accepting conditions behind their representatives' back only to be rebuffed thus turning them into hardliners too? Well, perhaps, we'll see i guess.

But this middle ground you are referring to, that is the halfway point between Bettman's last and final offer and what the players want?

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12-23-2012, 05:30 PM
  #364
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It is somewhat noteworthy i think that many had realized or argued that this cba may not be as much about owner-player disagreements as owner-owner ones. That, like a good coach deflecting from his team, seems to have been recently obfuscated.

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Originally Posted by RustE View Post
and why would they want to? revenues in the NHL are locally generated. why would an owner like Darryl Katz in Edmonton, who sells out every game at an average ticket of $100, who's fan base supports the team during a difficult rebuild, send money to Florida, who has to hire people to go outside and give tickets away. Then Florida (or Phoenix, Tampa, Dallas, Anaheim), having a comfy climate and annonimity for the players, is able to sign Edmonton's free agents with Katz's money.
The NHL is classified as a joint adventure. Its interesting reading some definitions:

Quote:
All joint ventures are initiated by the parties' entering a contract or an agreement that specifies their mutual responsibilities and goals. The contract is crucial for avoiding trouble later; the parties must be specific about the intent of their joint venture as well as aware of its limitations. All joint ventures also involve certain rights and duties. The parties have a mutual right to control the enterprise, a right to share in the profits, and a duty to share in any losses incurred. Each joint venturer has a fiduciary responsibility, owes a standard of care to the other members, and has the duty to act in Good Faith in matters that concern the common interest or the enterprise. A fiduciary responsibility is a duty to act for someone else's benefit while subordinating one's personal interests to those of the other person.
You dont say. It'd be fun to read that agreement eh.

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Old
12-23-2012, 05:53 PM
  #365
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And fans of the Royals realize that they will NEVER be a contender, year after year. Yeah, that seems fair.


or did you just forget the smilie?

Royals fans should pay Yankee Prices if they want Yankee talent

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12-23-2012, 06:04 PM
  #366
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You must mean that the recent last and best final offer that the owners gave, with the so called make-whole pot sweetened to $300mil was the best Fehrs leverage could garner? So obviously then he was doing just fine until he failed to accept that last offer i guess you are suggesting, as he ran out of leverage at that point and aggravated the moderate billionaires who gave up a whole day of their time to cajole players into accepting conditions behind their representatives' back only to be rebuffed thus turning them into hardliners too? Well, perhaps, we'll see i guess.

But this middle ground you are referring to, that is the halfway point between Bettman's last and final offer and what the players want?
My point is that the players could have negotiated the best NPV on their position 2 months ago. If they had started negotiating this summer, didn't take 2 months to respond to the owners' initial offer, and didn't waste a month of everyone's time with their alternative universe proposal, but rather had gotten down to some serious bargaining straight away and been realistic about what they could get, a settlement would have been reached a long time ago and we'd be watching hockey right now.

By the way, you think losing $750 million is salary in order to get back $300 million is 'winning'? That must be that new math.


Last edited by Stickmata: 12-23-2012 at 07:01 PM.
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12-23-2012, 06:08 PM
  #367
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Royals fans should pay Yankee Prices if they want Yankee talent
That is a great point, the fans willing to support their team should get the benefit of what their support creates.

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12-23-2012, 06:09 PM
  #368
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There is virtually nothing that reflects reality in this post. It's actually quite incredible really!

If you think the players voted the disclaimer of interest because everyone is looking to find a way to ditch Fehr, then you need to read more.
I'm not saying they're decertifying in order to ditch Fehr. I'm saying they're decertifying because it is the only leverage the players have. It's all they've ever had. Fehr leaving is simply the result. You do realize that once the union decertifies, he can't advise them anymore, right?

The players have two options at this point, settle or decertify. The owners aren't giving anything more and so, at this point, Fehr is essentially out of the equation. Right or wrong, he has brought the NHLPA to this point and there's nothing further for him to do.


Last edited by Stickmata: 12-23-2012 at 07:00 PM.
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12-23-2012, 07:22 PM
  #369
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Did someone steal your account Bob?

You're fighting for PA who want more money when they are offered roughly 2M per year on average?

You're fighting against lower cap?

You're making no sense here.
No, you equate being anti-owner with being pro PA.

I'm far more anti-owner than I am anti-PA.
But that doesn't mean I'm pro PA

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12-23-2012, 07:27 PM
  #370
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No offense, Bob but welcome to cooperate capitalism. This is far from a new revelation in business. Many are pragmatists, who do not concern themselves with what happens outside their own domain, nor should they have to.
They can do what they want. But there does come a point when it ceases to be relatable/likable.

Goofball billionaires demanding public dollars. Millionaire players holding out for extra millions. Billionaire owners pricing tickets out of the reach of typical families.

at some point, this is going to backfire.

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12-23-2012, 07:46 PM
  #371
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and why would they want to? revenues in the NHL are locally generated. why would an owner like Darryl Katz in Edmonton, who sells out every game at an average ticket of $100, who's fan base supports the team during a difficult rebuild, send money to Florida, who has to hire people to go outside and give tickets away. Then Florida (or Phoenix, Tampa, Dallas, Anaheim), having a comfy climate and annonimity for the players, is able to sign Edmonton's free agents with Katz's money.


For the same reason the Rangers should have (and IIRC did) give the Oilers support 2 decades ago when the economic situation warranted it.

Because with a very, very few exceptions, it's always someone's turn at the bottom.

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12-23-2012, 07:47 PM
  #372
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Like Tampa? Like...Philly?


Or incompetence is only a Leafs thing to you.
? what I posted has nothing to do with the leafs.

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12-23-2012, 08:00 PM
  #373
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That is a great point, the fans willing to support their team should get the benefit of what their support creates.
They pretty much have. Chicago has a Cup, and another deep run in the playoffs. Detroit has a Cup, and another deep run in the playoffs. Boston has a Cup, and multiple playoff appearances. Philly is in contention every year, and were a couple games away from a Cup. The Rangers are in the playoffs every year, and got damn close to a Final last year. Montreal has been to the playoffs more often than not recently, and made a nice run to a conference final. If you wanted to include Vancouver in there, we all know what they've done in recent years.

It's only in one city that supports hockey that fans haven't seen much, or anything, from their favorite organization lately.

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12-23-2012, 08:06 PM
  #374
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Royals fans should pay Yankee Prices if they want Yankee talent
Exactly. People want to bring the league down to the Florida Panthers and Carolina Hurricanes level. $10 tickets and dollar hot dog night in the playoffs.

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12-23-2012, 08:14 PM
  #375
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Exactly. People want to bring the league down to the Florida Panthers and Carolina Hurricanes level. $10 tickets and dollar hot dog night in the playoffs.
I'm not sure what ticket and concession pricing has to do with anything in this scenario. Revenue has between jack and squat to do with any of the real problems in the CBA negoations, that's been proven so many times on this board that I despair for the attention spans of any fan making the "southern argument."

Small markets help the league by showcasing additional talent for the big markets to buy up later, and if they hit it big it's frequently by finding creative ways to expand the talent pool. The league needs the well-run smaller markets as much as it needs the big teams.

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