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When the NHL cancels the season, Fehr will Fight to Repeal the Cap

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Old
12-21-2012, 02:40 PM
  #26
Stickmata
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
There are a lot of guys in this generation who will benefit if the cap goes away.

The union is the union. it's not only about the 700 guys right now. It's about the 700 guys in 2 years, in 6 years and in 10 years.
Yes, and if this thing goes down the path Don Fehr is pushing it, those guys are going to inherit a significantly damaged game 2, 6 or 10 years down the road. One with fewer teams and lower revenue, meaning less jobs and lower salaries. Winning.

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12-21-2012, 02:42 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Boltsfan2029 View Post
He can certainly go after the cap, just as long as he's willing to cost the players their guaranteed contracts, because that will be the immediate reply from the league.
Fehr can't go after anything, because the only leverage the players have left, at all, is decertification, which takes DF out of the picture. The players have zero leverage whatsoever beyond decertification, which is exactly why they're doing it. Don Fehr has failed and either players cave and take the offer on the table, or they decertify and DF goes home.

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12-21-2012, 02:45 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Melrose Munch View Post
Listen, if this is two years the NHL is done. There is no way a 2 year lockout will produce anything other than a history lesson. The MLS thanks the NHL for this historic opportunity and because of a lack of nationalist jingonism, it will capture all the NHL revenue and then some.
You think the PA exec hired Don Fehr to negotiate how much concessions to give up?

It's been hard to get a line on the PA for a reason. There's a reason why the owners don't want Fehr in the room. There's a reason why Bettman was "shaking with anger."

They know that they're going to have to give up a lot more than the NFL or NBA did because of Fehr, or risk cancelling the season and watching these owners start to lose franchise value -- which is really what this lockout was supposed to be about.

What do you think happens to the Blues ability to sell their franchise at an adequate price if the NHL loses an entire season?
Compare that to the difference between the NHL's offer and PA's offer.

Now, what do you think happens to the Blues franchise value if the Blues lose a season AND lose the salary cap.
Compare that to the difference between the NHL's offer and current PA offer.

When negotiations become a game of chicken, it's not about who wins as much as it's about who is less afraid to lose.

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12-21-2012, 02:47 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Stickmata View Post
Yes, and if this thing goes down the path Don Fehr is pushing it, those guys are going to inherit a significantly damaged game 2, 6 or 10 years down the road. One with fewer teams and lower revenue, meaning less jobs and lower salaries. Winning.
thanks .. you got it right...good to see that there are some people left who use some common sense ... got the impression a lot of players are posting here ... cannot explain most of the bs theories by anything else

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12-21-2012, 02:47 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by atomic View Post
compare the salaries in the NHL to every other hockey league in the world and then get back to me and tell me how the owners have been taking advantage of hockey players. Let's face it you could pay these guys 60k a year to play hockey and they would take it. The AHL has no problem filling their league with players willing to play for a small fraction of an NHL salar.
They don't have to take such a low sum. If you're an unique talent that performs at a level where a business can garner billions in revenues, there's no reality that allows this sum.


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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
What do consider canceling a season? That's the ultimate scorched earth policy.



At this point, what does Fehr get if the owners accepted the PA's offer?

Squat. I don't believe Fehr thinks an offer full of concessions after 3 months of missed paychecks is a good benefit... Do you?
I think he may be going far further than a cap. The day that unions exist may be coming to an end (at least I hope so). They're more useful to owners than players. The lockout tool may be the ultimate owner doomsday machine yet, the strategy that killed the golden goose.


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Originally Posted by Stickmata View Post
Fehr can't go after anything, because the only leverage the players have left, at all, is decertification, which takes DF out of the picture. The players have zero leverage whatsoever beyond decertification, which is exactly why they're doing it. Don Fehr has failed and either players cave and take the offer on the table, or they decertify and DF goes home.
Come again? They will have a ton of leverage if they actually do decertify. I'm hoping they do because I'm sick of CBAs and lockouts and strikes. Let's get back to market reality.

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12-21-2012, 02:47 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stickmata View Post
Yes, and if this thing goes down the path Don Fehr is pushing it, those guys are going to inherit a significantly damaged game 2, 6 or 10 years down the road. One with fewer teams and lower revenue, meaning less jobs and lower salaries. Winning.
Or the NHLPA wins a capless league. And players, starting next year, will have the ability to maximize their earnings.

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12-21-2012, 02:48 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
You think the PA exec hired Don Fehr to negotiate how much concessions to give up?

It's been hard to get a line on the PA for a reason. There's a reason why the owners don't want Fehr in the room. There's a reason why Bettman was "shaking with anger."

They know that they're going to have to give up a lot more than the NFL or NBA did because of Fehr, or risk cancelling the season and watching these owners start to lose franchise value -- which is really what this lockout was supposed to be about.

What do you think happens to the Blues ability to sell their franchise at an adequate price if the NHL loses an entire season?
Compare that to the difference between the NHL's offer and PA's offer.

Now, what do you think happens to the Blues franchise value if the Blues lose a season AND lose the salary cap.
Compare that to the difference between the NHL's offer and current PA offer.

When negotiations become a game of chicken, it's not about who wins as much as it's about who is less afraid to lose.
Very true. The thing is how long before an Owner revolt. Dolan will not wait 2 years to fight.

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12-21-2012, 02:49 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
They will have a ton of leverage if they actually do decertify. I'm hoping they do because I'm sick of CBAs and lockouts and strikes. Let's get back to market reality.
So it's safe to assume the DOI will be filed immediately?

If not, why not?

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12-21-2012, 02:50 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post



I think he may be going far further than a cap. The day that unions exist may be coming to an end (at least I hope so). They're more useful to owners than players. The lockout tool may be the ultimate owner doomsday machine yet, the strategy that killed the golden goose.
As long as you're not in a capped league, a union has a lot of benefit to a union.

Things like minimum salaries, roster limits and numbers of guys being dressed for a game and AHL callups-- these are things that the players need a voice in.

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12-21-2012, 02:50 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Come again? They will have a ton of leverage if they actually do decertify. I'm hoping they do because I'm sick of CBAs and lockouts and strikes. Let's get back to market reality.
I said they have no leverage whatsoever beyond decertification. Meaning decertification is their leverage. Which means DF is irrelevant at this point.

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12-21-2012, 02:51 PM
  #36
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NHLPA will never get the cap removed. It will take years of litigation for the NHLPA to win (assuming they can) and by that point the NHL wont exist anymore.

This season is over, but the players will cave before the beginning of next season. Props to the PA for actually fighting it out. I dont think it was a wise move, but i fully expected them to cave before this season is lost.

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12-21-2012, 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
He's not bargaining in bad faith.
He's playing the angle for the best possible deal.

Right now, the owners could accept this Fehr deal and do a victory lap. But he knows they will not.
Simply not true. Fehr's offer does nothing to guarantee that the owners will get to a 50/50 HRR split at any time during the term of the CBA that Fehr has proposed.

The Fehr proposal does guarantee that players will get 50%+.

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12-21-2012, 02:52 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Melrose Munch View Post
Very true. The thing is how long before an Owner revolt. Dolan will not wait 2 years to fight.
There's more chicken involved there, too. Which is why Bettman has stacked the deck in his favor on the BOG.

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12-21-2012, 02:52 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Or the NHLPA wins a capless league. And players, starting next year, will have the ability to maximize their earnings.
In a capless, open future, the players will not win. Not by a long shot. I think some of you guys think these teams are all sitting on hordes of cash that's just going to start flying in the event the owners lose and the market is flung open. I think the players will be in for a rude awakening if they think that's their future.

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12-21-2012, 02:53 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
They don't have to take such a low sum. If you're an unique talent that performs at a level where a business can garner billions in revenues, there's no reality that allows this sum.




I think he may be going far further than a cap. The day that unions exist may be coming to an end (at least I hope so). They're more useful to owners than players. The lockout tool may be the ultimate owner doomsday machine yet, the strategy that killed the golden goose.




Come again? They will have a ton of leverage if they actually do decertify. I'm hoping they do because I'm sick of CBAs and lockouts and strikes. Let's get back to market reality.
in reality the guys in the nhl aren't much better than the guys in the ahl. yet the guys in the ahl make a small fraction of the salary. I saw plenty of guys making 4 million or more in the nhl when they were in the ahl they weren't destorying the league. They just looked like good players. Saw Green, Carlson, Laich, Fleischman, Alzner in the minors. None of those guys were beasts in the minors. Sure there are guys like Ovechkin and Crosby that do things that others can't but they are in a small minority. You could certainly fill the NHL with guys making 60k a year. You would lose the top guys to europe. But the fans wouldn't notice the difference in the end.

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12-21-2012, 02:55 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Stickmata View Post
In a capless, open future, the players will not win. Not by a long shot. I think some of you guys think these teams are all sitting on hordes of cash that's just going to start flying in the event the owners lose and the market is flung open. I think the players will be in for a rude awakening if they think that's their future.
Really? Then why the hell was it so important that it already cost us a season?

The cap is very important.
Precap, guys like Lidstrom were making $10M a year. Rich teams like Toronto could build remarkably expensive teams.

What do you suppose NYR's salary structure and Toronto's salary structure would look like right now... without a salary cap?

Minnesota wouldn't have been able to win Suter and Parise, that's for damn sure. They would have gotten much more from rich teams.

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12-21-2012, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Or the NHLPA wins a capless league. And players, starting next year, will have the ability to maximize their earnings.
they need healthy franchises to pay this top dollar... see .. here it starts all over again

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12-21-2012, 02:55 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Stickmata View Post
Please, what the NHLPA has offered is nothing close to a victory lap by the owners. If you think it is, you obviously have no background in Finance or Economics.

The owners know that accepting the NHLPA's current offer will not solve their economic problems and will just guarantee this whole mess will be played out again in a few short years.

Honestly, for probably 30-40 percent of the teams in the league, shutting down is probably a better alternative to accepting the NHLPA's offer.
Which is exactly why the players are digging in -- whether you think it is smart of not.

Regardless of what you think, the owners will shut the players out over and over again until they get what they want -- namely pinning the players salaries and contract terms to a level that serves the lowest common denominator (the most underperforming teams in terms of revenue).

Why should the players pin their fortunes to the worst teams -- teams that Gary Bettman and the other owners put in place despite the relative foolish strategy of over expansion.

Should the players give so that the Phoenix's of the league can get by and the Toronto's, Boston's, and others make money hand over fist?

If the league wanted to get serious, they'd put together a thoughtful and reasonable revenue sharing plan as a significant part of the solution.

This is not a normal marketplace -- the league is a monopoly, which is why a CBA is required in the first place.

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12-21-2012, 02:57 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by atomic View Post
in reality the guys in the nhl aren't much better than the guys in the ahl. yet the guys in the ahl make a small fraction of the salary. I saw plenty of guys making 4 million or more in the nhl when they were in the ahl they weren't destorying the league. They just looked like good players. Saw Green, Carlson, Laich, Fleischman, Alzner in the minors. None of those guys were beasts in the minors. Sure there are guys like Ovechkin and Crosby that do things that others can't but they are in a small minority. You could certainly fill the NHL with guys making 60k a year. You would lose the top guys to europe. But the fans wouldn't notice the difference in the end.
You should go to an AHL game before you type!

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12-21-2012, 02:58 PM
  #45
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Or the NHLPA wins a capless league. And players, starting next year, will have the ability to maximize their earnings.
The only way that happens if the players win a court battle. the league will never agree to it.

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12-21-2012, 02:59 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
You think the PA exec hired Don Fehr to negotiate how much concessions to give up?

It's been hard to get a line on the PA for a reason. There's a reason why the owners don't want Fehr in the room. There's a reason why Bettman was "shaking with anger."

They know that they're going to have to give up a lot more than the NFL or NBA did because of Fehr, or risk cancelling the season and watching these owners start to lose franchise value -- which is really what this lockout was supposed to be about.

What do you think happens to the Blues ability to sell their franchise at an adequate price if the NHL loses an entire season?
Compare that to the difference between the NHL's offer and PA's offer.

Now, what do you think happens to the Blues franchise value if the Blues lose a season AND lose the salary cap.
Compare that to the difference between the NHL's offer and current PA offer.

When negotiations become a game of chicken, it's not about who wins as much as it's about who is less afraid to lose.
No one's saying that this isn't hurting the owners.

But it's hurting the players more. A lot more in many cases. The owners usually have other revenue streams to fall back on. Heck many owners aren't making a dime on their teams right now. Meanwhile the players almost never have alternate revenue streams, and what revenue streams do exist tend to be far inferior to the "real thing" and/or require a great deal of travel to realize (such as those playing in Europe or the KHL).

If I have to cut off my own foot, in order to cut off my enemy's pinky toe, I'm going to think hard about just how much I really want that toe gone and how I'd much rather keep my own foot.

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12-21-2012, 02:59 PM
  #47
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in reality the guys in the nhl aren't much better than the guys in the ahl. yet the guys in the ahl make a small fraction of the salary.
Depends on the guy.
Is Cory Emmerton much better than Tomas Tatar? Nope.
Is Pavel Datsyuk much better than Tomas Tatar? Yep.


Quote:
Saw Green, Carlson, Laich, Fleischman, Alzner in the minors. None of those guys were beasts in the minors. Sure there are guys like Ovechkin and Crosby that do things that others can't but they are in a small minority.
Well, for one thing, it tends to take time for defensemen to learn their game. Is Brooks Laich elite? Hell no. But he's far better than an AHLer.


Quote:
You could certainly fill the NHL with guys making 60k a year. You would lose the top guys to europe. But the fans wouldn't notice the difference in the end
We'll have to disagree on that.
I've watched my share of AHL hockey this year and it stinks compared to the NHL.

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12-21-2012, 03:00 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by atomic View Post
in reality the guys in the nhl aren't much better than the guys in the ahl. yet the guys in the ahl make a small fraction of the salary. I saw plenty of guys making 4 million or more in the nhl when they were in the ahl they weren't destorying the league. They just looked like good players. Saw Green, Carlson, Laich, Fleischman, Alzner in the minors. None of those guys were beasts in the minors. Sure there are guys like Ovechkin and Crosby that do things that others can't but they are in a small minority. You could certainly fill the NHL with guys making 60k a year. You would lose the top guys to europe. But the fans wouldn't notice the difference in the end.
I disagree, but even the lower line guys have enough of a marginal superiority, be it experience alone, that pushes them up. GMs may be dumb but not so dumb that they'd leave better players in the AHL (unless they're NHL prospects and cap issues influence the decision).

What you're suggesting with the other part is just not possible. Again--- players cannot be 'forced' to play for $60K per year when the reality is that teams would pay millions absent any CBA-induced restraints. Antitrust laws would come into play well before this happened.

Finally, if fans cannot tell the difference between AHL and NHL hockey, the owners are the world's biggest idiots.

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12-21-2012, 03:00 PM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Or the NHLPA wins a capless league. And players, starting next year, will have the ability to maximize their earnings.
There will be no capless NHL. If that were to happen, the NHL would lose at least six teams. If you lose six teams thats 300 NHL contracts that won't exist anymore. Those 300 contracts would be possible UNION members.

The players are stupid, plain and simple. The NHL would look a LOT different. I don't know how anyone can still defend them.

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12-21-2012, 03:00 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by atomic View Post
compare the salaries in the NHL to every other hockey league in the world and then get back to me and tell me how the owners have been taking advantage of hockey players. Let's face it you could pay these guys 60k a year to play hockey and they would take it. The AHL has no problem filling their league with players willing to play for a small fraction of an NHL salar.
The issue is the market.

If the owners generate x amount of dollars from their franchises then the players are entitled to y which could be derived from x, not just some arbitrary number.

I am not certain if there are any laws or regulations that govern this aspect of the employer/employee relationship however.

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