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When the NHL cancels the season, Fehr will Fight to Repeal the Cap

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Old
12-21-2012, 06:00 PM
  #151
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Originally Posted by Stickmata
Well, if it disbands, a number of players will immediately file anti trust suits against the league. I'm sure the papers are already drawn up and ready to file the day after.

Sure, what basis does any player have to sue the NHL for anti trust violations? please be specific.

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12-21-2012, 06:03 PM
  #152
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Originally Posted by habfan1968 View Post
Originally Posted by Stickmata
Well, if it disbands, a number of players will immediately file anti trust suits against the league. I'm sure the papers are already drawn up and ready to file the day after.

Sure, what basis does any player have to sue the NHL for anti trust violations? please be specific.
I believe a salary cap outside of a cba is an anti-trust issue for starters.

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12-21-2012, 06:11 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
The NHLPA executive hired Fehr to get rid of the cap.
I am almost sure of it now.

It seems hard to believe, given that the union has agreed to what amounts to a several year wage freeze and restrictions on contract.

It doesn't make much sense to me that the PA would move so close to the NHL's offer and then draw the line on certain things (most notably--5 year vs 8 year contracts and who pays for the damage caused by the lockout ... an issue that gets bigger each day).

It doesn't make sense unless you consider that Fehr is counting on the NHL owners' greed, pride and arrogance -- that will lead the NHL into locking out the PA.

Fehr couldn't put the cap on the table from the beginning because the hockey media, pro-owner as it is, would revolt. In fact, moderate players would not have the stomach for it.

So Fehr has been stringing this out, offering bits here and there... knowing the greedy owners would never accept anything he proposed.

He's offered just enough to make the moderates think the PA has given (and the PA has given-- there's no denying who has made the real concessions and who hasn't).

The NHL is not going to get the deal the NFL or NBA got with Fehr at the table. That's obvious. Unless they find a bludgeon.

When the NHL cancels the season, Fehr and the executive will have exactly what they want... the fight to repeal the salary cap.

This lockout may last two years.
Is there a link here or somewhere pointing to this as what is actually happening?

Or can I just say that the NHL is being used at the tip of the spear by Proskauer Rose LLP and the encouragement of the other major pro sports because the PA hasn't brought enough to the table to make it worth their while.

Fehr can come back after the cap but they will break these sports unions once and for all in court while he sits around posturing for this goal. They are counting on his arrogance and greed as Union leader to set them up for a resounding court victory.

They know Fehr likes to play chicken and this time the NHL is going to crash the car playing with him and it will be like Last Action Hero where they have an air bag and Fehr doesn't. The moderate owners would have never allowed it so they allowed them into the room to be insulted and all they need is Fehr to go for the one tactic they have been claiming he always would and that is the cap.

As soon as Fehr goes for the cap he turns almost all 29 owners into hardliners, he gets every major sports league pitching in lawyers on top of Proskauer Rose to go to the mattresses.

Was Bettman and Proskauer smart enough to see this as a possible outcome? Probably not in your eyes because you view them as incompetent buffoons that will be punished.

The reality is at this stage both are heading into nuclear options that we have no precedence for establishing and it looks like both feel the end game will absolutely come out in their favor. It comes with considerable risk on each side and really a great deal of arrogance and greed by both sides.

It seems hard to believe the NHLPA would risk some of the things they are now to help build Fehr's legacy.

Also I fail to see the pro-owner part of the media. Sure there are some but they are vastly outnumbered by the pro-player contingent.

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12-21-2012, 06:11 PM
  #154
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LOL, I agree but I don't think we have put a dent in all the anti union dogma around here We must be the only non billionaire members.
Most likely. I love the fact people complain the owners built this and then get mad when they ask for task money. The Union hate is carried over from real life.

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12-21-2012, 06:15 PM
  #155
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I lost count of how many interviews I heard saying that Fehr did ask the players if they wanted to go after the cap from the get go. They said no because they know it will last an easy 1-2 seasons of fighting.

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12-21-2012, 06:18 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
Is there a link here or somewhere pointing to this as what is actually happening?

Or can I just say that the NHL is being used at the tip of the spear by Proskauer Rose LLP and the encouragement of the other major pro sports because the PA hasn't brought enough to the table to make it worth their while.

Fehr can come back after the cap but they will break these sports unions once and for all in court while he sits around posturing for this goal. They are counting on his arrogance and greed as Union leader to set them up for a resounding court victory.

They know Fehr likes to play chicken and this time the NHL is going to crash the car playing with him and it will be like Last Action Hero where they have an air bag and Fehr doesn't. The moderate owners would have never allowed it so they allowed them into the room to be insulted and all they need is Fehr to go for the one tactic they have been claiming he always would and that is the cap.

As soon as Fehr goes for the cap he turns almost all 29 owners into hardliners, he gets every major sports league pitching in lawyers on top of Proskauer Rose to go to the mattresses.

Was Bettman and Proskauer smart enough to see this as a possible outcome? Probably not in your eyes because you view them as incompetent buffoons that will be punished.

The reality is at this stage both are heading into nuclear options that we have no precedence for establishing and it looks like both feel the end game will absolutely come out in their favor. It comes with considerable risk on each side and really a great deal of arrogance and greed by both sides.

It seems hard to believe the NHLPA would risk some of the things they are now to help build Fehr's legacy.

Also I fail to see the pro-owner part of the media. Sure there are some but they are vastly outnumbered by the pro-player contingent.
Most of the legal experts on the board seem to agree that this going to court favours the NHLPA because in it's lawsuit the NHL is asking for a whole lot

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12-21-2012, 06:19 PM
  #157
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I lost count of how many interviews I heard saying that Fehr did ask the players if they wanted to go after the cap from the get go. They said no because they know it will last an easy 1-2 seasons of fighting.
But still, that doesn't say that they don't want the Cap gone. And for Fehr, what a feather in his 'cap' if he could get what the players figured he wouldn't be able to.

He's not going to get it! That's the Hill I'll die on.

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12-21-2012, 06:20 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by BlueChip01 View Post
I lost count of how many interviews I heard saying that Fehr did ask the players if they wanted to go after the cap from the get go. They said no because they know it will last an easy 1-2 seasons of fighting.
I think it is still a long fight from when it starts too. Not like because they are going to lose a year that speeds up. It turns into a 2 year option from when they start and I just don't think Fehr could ever get the players to actually go for it. If he does though I am not sure the Jacobs or Bettman types haven't always wanted this battle. They could once and for all cripple the NHLPA. But, I really hope they don't because they will have killed the NHL in the process, it will be a total death blow in my opinion. Both sides will have to live with considerable blame for it getting to this stage.

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12-21-2012, 06:21 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by Canadian Guy View Post
Most of the legal experts on the board seem to agree that this going to court favours the NHLPA because in it's lawsuit the NHL is asking for a whole lot
Cuban and some of the NBA owners have hinted at their legal experts believing if they stuck it out they would have won. The NHL might be desperate enough to actually do it.

To be clear I don't know which side wins, both seem awfully confident, one is going to be very disappointed if it gets there.

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12-21-2012, 06:24 PM
  #160
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Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
Cuban and some of the NBA owners have hinted at their legal experts believing if they stuck it out they would have won. The NHL might be desperate enough to actually do it.
Fair enough and I can't really explain it myself but checkout the thread about the NHL filing the lawsuit and complaint and you can read what the experts on here think.

From what I gather precendent has pretty much been established that a league seeking protection from anti-trust is extremely unlikely due to an NFL court case in the late 80's/early 90's and that judges don't like to make judgements on potential future issues

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12-21-2012, 07:04 PM
  #161
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The same way you know they are tremendous brothers in arms.
Let's see, 706-22 is an approval rating of about 97%; hardly a union which is cracking.

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12-21-2012, 07:13 PM
  #162
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Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
Is there a link here or somewhere pointing to this as what is actually happening?

Or can I just say that the NHL is being used at the tip of the spear by Proskauer Rose LLP and the encouragement of the other major pro sports because the PA hasn't brought enough to the table to make it worth their while.

Fehr can come back after the cap but they will break these sports unions once and for all in court while he sits around posturing for this goal. They are counting on his arrogance and greed as Union leader to set them up for a resounding court victory.

They know Fehr likes to play chicken and this time the NHL is going to crash the car playing with him and it will be like Last Action Hero where they have an air bag and Fehr doesn't. The moderate owners would have never allowed it so they allowed them into the room to be insulted and all they need is Fehr to go for the one tactic they have been claiming he always would and that is the cap.

As soon as Fehr goes for the cap he turns almost all 29 owners into hardliners, he gets every major sports league pitching in lawyers on top of Proskauer Rose to go to the mattresses.

Was Bettman and Proskauer smart enough to see this as a possible outcome? Probably not in your eyes because you view them as incompetent buffoons that will be punished.

The reality is at this stage both are heading into nuclear options that we have no precedence for establishing and it looks like both feel the end game will absolutely come out in their favor. It comes with considerable risk on each side and really a great deal of arrogance and greed by both sides.

It seems hard to believe the NHLPA would risk some of the things they are now to help build Fehr's legacy.

Also I fail to see the pro-owner part of the media. Sure there are some but they are vastly outnumbered by the pro-player contingent.
Not that I agree with your apparent pro-owners' stand but I fear that you may be right in your contention that the NFL and NBA may support the end game of the NHL- break the union's last leverage point of decertification so they'll never have to worry about anti-trust again. If so, I'd expect that players' unions from the NFL and NBA to also take part in any court action on behalf of the NHLPA. Not sure what the rules are in the US but in Canada I believe just about anyone can speak in support or denial of an action if the resulting case law may affect their ability to do business. Supreme court hearings regarding one province, for instance, are often attended and spoken to by other provinces which may be affected.

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12-21-2012, 07:16 PM
  #163
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The writing was on the wall a year ago that the NHL had no intension of having a season this year. That is why the PA hired Fehr so they can minimize the take backs. I don't think he was hired to get rid of the cap. There was no need to with 100million$ contracts. They rather be able to keep the longer term than Bettman wants to allow. The players are willing to wait them out.
It looks like some here think the players are starving if they sit out a year. I always look at my own situation where I was given gift of about what the average NHL player makes in the year. It allowed me to retire 20 years before planned. I think most NHL players' parents had their kids set themselves up for the future so they can be financially sound if they only play for a couple years.
In the end tell me who is better off? A player that was only able to bank 3 or 4 million (which is only one seasons pay for some) or an owner that has a team that was worth $200 million at one point and maybe worth only half that when this is over.

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12-21-2012, 07:24 PM
  #164
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Originally Posted by no1b4me View Post
The writing was on the wall a year ago that the NHL had no intension of having a season this year. That is why the PA hired Fehr so they can minimize the take backs. I don't think he was hired to get rid of the cap. There was no need to with 100million$ contracts. They rather be able to keep the longer term than Bettman wants to allow. The players are willing to wait them out.
It looks like some here think the players are starving if they sit out a year. I always look at my own situation where I was given gift of about what the average NHL player makes in the year. It allowed me to retire 20 years before planned. I think most NHL players' parents had their kids set themselves up for the future so they can be financially sound if they only play for a couple years.
In the end tell me who is better off? A player that was only able to bank 3 or 4 million (which is only one seasons pay for some) or an owner that has a team that was worth $200 million at one point and maybe worth only half that when this is over.
Go ask Darren Mccarty

"DETROIT -- Darren McCarty of the Calgary Flames has filed for bankruptcy, citing debts of $6.2 million against assets of $1.9 million in his court filing.

Marty Fried, McCarty's lawyer, cited last season's NHL lockout, a divorce that was finalized in February 2005 and a smaller contract with the Flames as reasons for McCarty's bankruptcy filing.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/news/story?id=2406709

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12-21-2012, 07:38 PM
  #165
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Let's see, 706-22 is an approval rating of about 97%; hardly a union which is cracking.
Not cracking, dissolving...

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12-21-2012, 07:41 PM
  #166
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Most of the legal experts on the board seem to agree that this going to court favours the NHLPA because in it's lawsuit the NHL is asking for a whole lot
Ummm what? Just about every so-called expert is telling that NHLPA is going to have a hard time convincing the court this is not a sham or a negotiation tactic.

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12-21-2012, 08:17 PM
  #167
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Uh, no. With the lack of a CBA, whether a contract is guaranteed depends on what is agreed between a team and the player. And even if players opt for a non-guaranteed contract, they could still get a nest egg for themselves by asking for bonus money up front.
I thought they were talking about continuing CBA negotiations. If they were talking post-DOI/decertification, I misunderstood. My bad if that's the case.

As for the bonus money, they could ask for it, but that doesn't necessarily mean they'd get it.

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Fehr is anti-cap. Always has been, always will be. If you hire him, there is only one reason why. If he took the NHLPA job to get rid of the cap, which is really the only reason why he would take such a minor job, then he never intended on making a deal.
Wouldn't that qualify as bad faith "negotiating," then? What a waste of time, to drag this on for months knowing he had no intention of making an agreement. I would think that would land Mr. Fehr and the PA in a bit of hot water if there was any way to prove it.

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12-21-2012, 08:28 PM
  #168
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Go ask Darren Mccarty

"DETROIT -- Darren McCarty of the Calgary Flames has filed for bankruptcy, citing debts of $6.2 million against assets of $1.9 million in his court filing.

Marty Fried, McCarty's lawyer, cited last season's NHL lockout, a divorce that was finalized in February 2005 and a smaller contract with the Flames as reasons for McCarty's bankruptcy filing.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/news/story?id=2406709
Sure you will find a few players that tossed what they had away. Was it the lockout or someone foolish with their money? I can find you dozens of people that tossed millions of lotto money away and have nothing now.

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12-21-2012, 08:35 PM
  #169
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I thought they were talking about continuing CBA negotiations. If they were talking post-DOI/decertification, I misunderstood. My bad if that's the case.

As for the bonus money, they could ask for it, but that doesn't necessarily mean they'd get it.
It would all be part of the negotiation. Which is what it should be.

Nobody thinks that the NHL is going to give up the salary cap unless the alternative is worse.

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Wouldn't that qualify as bad faith "negotiating," then? What a waste of time, to drag this on for months knowing he had no intention of making an agreement. I would think that would land Mr. Fehr and the PA in a bit of hot water if there was any way to prove it.
What, the implicit threat that the union will decertify? Is that really any worse than the league threatening to cancel the season?

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12-21-2012, 09:03 PM
  #170
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What, the implicit threat that the union will decertify? Is that really any worse than the league threatening to cancel the season?
If the union was really planning on not functioning as a union sure. The NHL will actually cancel the season, they have done it before, it is what happens when there is no agreement between the two parties. You can see it as a negotiations tactic, but they have followed through. So if the union really stops behaving like a union then it was not that different. However if they still behave like one, and clearly are one, I think it is slightly different.

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12-21-2012, 09:07 PM
  #171
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For every dollar the players lose, the owners lose perhaps 20 cents. Seems like bad conditions for a game of chicken, even more so considering the owners have more money to start with.

If Fehr actually thinks he can attack the cap, I think the players will turn on him. They've done well under the cap and all teams in the league have the chance to eventually win the cup if they manage their team correctly.

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12-21-2012, 09:08 PM
  #172
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
The NHLPA executive hired Fehr to get rid of the cap.
I am almost sure of it now.

It seems hard to believe, given that the union has agreed to what amounts to a several year wage freeze and restrictions on contract.

It doesn't make much sense to me that the PA would move so close to the NHL's offer and then draw the line on certain things (most notably--5 year vs 8 year contracts and who pays for the damage caused by the lockout ... an issue that gets bigger each day).

It doesn't make sense unless you consider that Fehr is counting on the NHL owners' greed, pride and arrogance -- that will lead the NHL into locking out the PA.

Fehr couldn't put the cap on the table from the beginning because the hockey media, pro-owner as it is, would revolt. In fact, moderate players would not have the stomach for it.

So Fehr has been stringing this out, offering bits here and there... knowing the greedy owners would never accept anything he proposed.

He's offered just enough to make the moderates think the PA has given (and the PA has given-- there's no denying who has made the real concessions and who hasn't).

The NHL is not going to get the deal the NFL or NBA got with Fehr at the table. That's obvious. Unless they find a bludgeon.

When the NHL cancels the season, Fehr and the executive will have exactly what they want... the fight to repeal the salary cap.

This lockout may last two years.
Is it not equally arrogant to presume the owners will falter from idle threats toward the cap? Fehr can rally against it all he wants. The immediate response will see guaranteed contracts taken off the table, if the owner even entertain discussion to begin with. How many amongst the players can afford a two year war with a pyrrhic victory as the best conclusion?

Your claim of no concessions hinges on the belief negotiation assured a "give and take" approach as absolute. That is not always the result, evident by the proceedings. Frequently, it becomes how best to mitigate your losses. Further, it is disingenuous to claim the owners coming down from their demands is not a form of concession.

Should Fehr believe he can strong arm the NHL into submission. We will be without hockey for a long while. I wish the 600+ players unable to get a job elsewhere luck in retaining those high figure salaries.

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Bob McKenzie, Pierre Lebrun... Damen Cox, Darren Dreger..

All Pro-owner.

All accept the owners' premise on all of these arguments.
McKenzie is pro-neither. If you bother to watch any of TSN's Insider Trading, the expression on his face practically screams he sees both sides are moronic and cannot wait to be done with this. Lebrun and Dreger just report, both having provided arguments on the PA's side. Admittedly, Dreger has engaged with a few analysts over Twitter but there is a significant difference between everyone you listed and the accused PA shills. Brooks, for instance, has never once posted anything that does not slam the owners and read as a glorified PR campaign. TSN has been consistently neutral for the most part, albeit you could argue an owner preference here or there.

To accuse all the popular analysts of owner bias as a definitive, while not even acknowledging PA shills is purposefully deceptive.

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12-21-2012, 09:21 PM
  #173
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Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
For every dollar the players lose, the owners lose perhaps 20 cents. Seems like bad conditions for a game of chicken, even more so considering the owners have more money to start with.

If Fehr actually thinks he can attack the cap, I think the players will turn on him. They've done well under the cap and all teams in the league have the chance to eventually win the cup if they manage their team correctly.
Less even.

Ronald Burkle: 3.2 Billion (net worth)
Pittsburgh Penguins: 288 Million (Fores cited worth)

Taken strictly at face value, thus devoid of possible right offs or making use of the arena for other ventures. Burke stands to lose just 9% of his overall worth. Keep in mind, Forges estimation is neither 100% nor are they equating net. As such, 9% is an unlikely high.

To use your comparison, Burkle is not even giving up a dime to Crosby's dollar. The real kicker is Pittsburgh is among the supposedly black line teams.

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12-21-2012, 09:21 PM
  #174
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What, the implicit threat that the union will decertify? Is that really any worse than the league threatening to cancel the season?
I was responding to this, which I quoted in my response:

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If he took the NHLPA job to get rid of the cap, which is really the only reason why he would take such a minor job, then he never intended on making a deal.

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12-21-2012, 09:22 PM
  #175
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That's debatable.

When you pay $250 million for a hockey team and it's now worth $150M... that's real losses of money you already had.

When you don't play for a year and you lose $5M.... that's the loss of money you never had and hoped to get.

On the other hand, if you bought that team for $250M and hoped to sell it for $400M ..and its only worth $150M... you've lost $100M for real and $150M you hoped to get.

These are just made numbers, of course, but I'm just making a point.

We don't talk about the owners' side on this because we don't understand it.

We understand, in simple terms, not getting your paycheck. We understand, in simple terms, losing more money than you make.

but what we don't understand is the real complexity of sports team ownership. We rarely talk about the real motivations for sports team ownership and act as if it is some mom and pop pizza joint.

I don't understand it. I've read lots of articles, but most of it is speculation. There is no one-size-fits-all motivation.

Yes and if I own a huge pizza company and a major league baseball team, or a massive chain of drug stores, or perhaps a steel company or even one of the world's largest hospitality management companies I can afford to eat those losses while I wait.

Back in 1960, the fledgling Dallas Texans football team in the upstart AFL lost a heretofore unheard of $1 million in their first season. The team was owned by a reasonably young owner, Lamar Hunt. His father was notorious oilman H.L. Hunt. A reporter asked H.L., "Mr. Hunt, Lamar just had the largest loss in the history of team sports. What do you think? He can't do that forever can he?"

Hunt replied, "Why no sir, he can't lose that much forever. "

"He can only do that for the next 260 years."

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