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When the NHL cancels the season, Fehr will Fight to Repeal the Cap

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Old
12-22-2012, 01:39 AM
  #176
RedWingsNow*
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Mike Ilitch spent way too much on the Detroit Tigers last year in a last ditch effort to win the World Series before he died.

When Prince Fielder signed his $214M contract... I decided I was done watching baseball. I don't begrudge Fielder or Ilitch.

But I'm just not interested in the obscenity anymore. We've got schools closing. We've got police departments closing. We've got fire halls closing. We've got water mains that are 100+ years old rotting under the streets....

$214M for a fat, out-of-shape first basemen?

Stunning.

I'm getting that way with hockey too...

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Old
12-22-2012, 02:09 AM
  #177
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Originally Posted by moosehead81 View Post
Let's see, 706-22 is an approval rating of about 97%; hardly a union which is cracking.
Wait two weeks.

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Old
12-22-2012, 02:27 AM
  #178
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I don't understand why the players would be so willing to give up a cap system that they've actually done pretty well under... And to give up a season of pay? Hmm.

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12-22-2012, 02:54 AM
  #179
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
$214M for a fat, out-of-shape first basemen?

Stunning.

I'm getting that way with hockey too...
Did someone steal your account Bob?

You're fighting for PA who want more money when they are offered roughly 2M per year on average?

You're fighting against lower cap?

You're making no sense here.

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Old
12-22-2012, 03:52 AM
  #180
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The players did hire a gunslinger. Bettman, as Sheriff isn't going to stand for any guff. With thier vote, the players have essentially drawn thier gun. Bettman has a scattergun, though and is waving it around.

No talks are sceduled for the weekend. Then there is christmas. At best talks can resume on the twenty seventh and go until the year end. They want a forty eight game schedule and this must begin by mid January. They need to hold training camps. This leaves about five days to get a deal done, using lawsuits as a starting point.

If Fehr wanted to scrap the cap, he should have said so a long time ago. Why not? The owners' first offer was pure bullying. Instead we have a situation that is not close to resolvement. Court battles take years and this will be epic! What Fehr is doing is destroying the union. If the CBA is washed out there will be no cap or restriction on contracts. We will be back in the every man for himself era where there were no good contracts. This cannot be by design.

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12-22-2012, 05:10 AM
  #181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Mike Ilitch spent way too much on the Detroit Tigers last year in a last ditch effort to win the World Series before he died.

When Prince Fielder signed his $214M contract... I decided I was done watching baseball. I don't begrudge Fielder or Ilitch.

But I'm just not interested in the obscenity anymore. We've got schools closing. We've got police departments closing. We've got fire halls closing. We've got water mains that are 100+ years old rotting under the streets....

$214M for a fat, out-of-shape first basemen?

Stunning.

I'm getting that way with hockey too...
No offense, Bob but welcome to cooperate capitalism. This is far from a new revelation in business. Many are pragmatists, who do not concern themselves with what happens outside their own domain, nor should they have to.

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Old
12-22-2012, 06:48 AM
  #182
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Originally Posted by Seedling View Post
Not at 43%.
If the players conceded 43% the owners would be right back at the end of the deal with another lockout. Guaranteed. It isn't like they want a fair deal. They want everything. If they could hire sweatshop kids and still fill arenas then they would.

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12-22-2012, 07:05 AM
  #183
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Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
For every dollar the players lose, the owners lose perhaps 20 cents. Seems like bad conditions for a game of chicken, even more so considering the owners have more money to start with.

If Fehr actually thinks he can attack the cap, I think the players will turn on him. They've done well under the cap and all teams in the league have the chance to eventually win the cup if they manage their team correctly.
The fact that they did well under the cap is why we are here. The owners don't want them to do well. They got their cap and now they want to use the cap to crush player compensation. Whatever they get now will only be the tip of the iceberg. They will never stop demanding concessions until the act of doing so causes them pain.

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12-22-2012, 07:13 AM
  #184
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Originally Posted by schminksbro View Post
If the players conceded 43% the owners would be right back at the end of the deal with another lockout. Guaranteed. It isn't like they want a fair deal. They want everything. If they could hire sweatshop kids and still fill arenas then they would.
Wrong. They would only risk another lockout if the benefits outweights the risk. If they make money, they aren't throwing that away for a prolonged lockout. Of course they would ask for concessions, everyone wants to improve their position, but in the end, they wouldn't risk everything for a tiny bit more, see NFL. Funny enough, the players are currently behaving like you suggest the owners would. They would rather throw away lots of money for a tiny bit more "success", even though that success means less money than a "loss". The players still cry over how they lost the last time around, completely ignoring that it was the best deal they ever had.

Beyond that, who cares what the percentage is. What matters is the amount of money that is actually paid out to the players. 50% of 4 billion is more than 57% of 3.3 billion. Just like 43% of 5 billion would be more than 50% of 4. As long as the average salary is rising, the players have absolutely no reason to complain.

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Old
12-22-2012, 07:13 AM
  #185
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Ummm what? Just about every so-called expert is telling that NHLPA is going to have a hard time convincing the court this is not a sham or a negotiation tactic.
If that were the case they wouldn't be pursuing it. The PA has lawyers too. They know the law and they know precedent. If they dissolve the union then its bye, bye cap! I can't wait! From my perspective Bettman's reign has destroyed the league I used to support and enjoy. After 3 lockouts and a destruction of the history and tradition of the NHL I no longer wish to support it. Bettman is never going to be fired. The only way for me to get my pound of flesh is if the players win or the more likely scenario where the whole thing burns.

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12-22-2012, 07:19 AM
  #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Mike Ilitch spent way too much on the Detroit Tigers last year in a last ditch effort to win the World Series before he died.

When Prince Fielder signed his $214M contract... I decided I was done watching baseball. I don't begrudge Fielder or Ilitch.

But I'm just not interested in the obscenity anymore. We've got schools closing. We've got police departments closing. We've got fire halls closing. We've got water mains that are 100+ years old rotting under the streets....




$214M for a fat, out-of-shape first basemen?

Stunning.

I'm getting that way with hockey too...
But Bob, this is what you have been arguing for. A capless system in the NHL. Has your argument changed? Do you now want a salary cap in MLB and no cap in NHL so your beloved Red Wings can buy their way to a cup final. Basically you want whatever is best for the Red Wings. So transparent.

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Old
12-22-2012, 07:34 AM
  #187
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Originally Posted by Laus Deo View Post
The risk for putting their health on the line is what you are conveniently disregarding.

The contract is "I will work my tail off, I will be the best I can, I will work when not feeling my best, I will fight, I will block shots, I will break orbital bones, vertebrae, femurs, tibias, feet, toe and ankle bones, hands, arms, noses, lose teeth, skin. I will dislocate shoulders and hips, be hit, bruised, lose eye sight and incurr brain damage. I will get surgery, rehab and do it all over again. " Do they get a thank you from anyone? A kick in the nads from the owners is more like it.

There are other things that they give up and do for the game and it's fans far beyond the scope of this message board.

For all that would you not expect to be fairly compensated?

You are probably one of the ones who'd do it for free.

Talk to a pre-expansion era player. Oh, the current life of a poor NHL player. Get a job.

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Old
12-22-2012, 07:34 AM
  #188
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Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
For every dollar the players lose, the owners lose perhaps 20 cents. Seems like bad conditions for a game of chicken, even more so considering the owners have more money to start with.

If Fehr actually thinks he can attack the cap, I think the players will turn on him. They've done well under the cap and all teams in the league have the chance to eventually win the cup if they manage their team correctly.
Except this mess will reek havoc on team valuations for quite some time...... and that's real money.

This mess is hurting every one and not to a small degree.

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12-22-2012, 07:41 AM
  #189
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Originally Posted by Seedling View Post
Wait two weeks.
I don't pretend to know how this will play out.

However part of the reason this vote took so long was that the players needed to be informed of exactly what this vote meant, including the possible repercussions of same.

With that in mind, if you think that a 97% positive vote is some sort of tenuous, short lived, and precarious position you are going to be disappointed.

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Old
12-22-2012, 07:50 AM
  #190
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Originally Posted by schminksbro View Post
If that were the case they wouldn't be pursuing it. The PA has lawyers too. They know the law and they know precedent. If they dissolve the union then its bye, bye cap! I can't wait! From my perspective Bettman's reign has destroyed the league I used to support and enjoy. After 3 lockouts and a destruction of the history and tradition of the NHL I no longer wish to support it. Bettman is never going to be fired. The only way for me to get my pound of flesh is if the players win or the more likely scenario where the whole thing burns.
Wow...

Bettman has been around for 20 years, what the hell are you doing here anyways if you don't support or enjoy it?

NHLPA is using the DOI as a negotiating tactic, they are trying to force NHL to surrender to their claims. If court rules it's nothing but a sham (which is supported by dozens of comments from PA members), NHLPA is so out of luck. If it was a slam-dunk case, PA would have done it already.

NHLPA won't go for DOI until the last moment, they use it as a leverage. NHL might just call their hand.

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Old
12-22-2012, 07:57 AM
  #191
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Except this mess will reek havoc on team valuations for quite some time...... and that's real money.

This mess is hurting every one and not to a small degree.
No, it's not real money. Team valuations are nothing but guesstimates, the real value is known only when a team is sold. Billionaire owners can handle with possible valuation depreciations because it has nothing to do with cash flow, which in the end is the only thing that matters. And the value of teams goes much higher if they turn profit. If Bettman makes all teams profitable by crushing the players, the valuation of the teams go sky high.

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12-22-2012, 08:10 AM
  #192
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Originally Posted by Pepper View Post
No, it's not real money. Team valuations are nothing but guesstimates, the real value is known only when a team is sold. Billionaire owners can handle with possible valuation depreciations because it has nothing to do with cash flow, which in the end is the only thing that matters. And the value of teams goes much higher if they turn profit. If Bettman makes all teams profitable by crushing the players, the valuation of the teams go sky high.
I understand and grasp the concept of valuations.

When I said "real money" I meant a lot of money, significant numbers, serious dough, fat stacks, etc.

If Bettman crushes the players, valuations will ultimately go up - perhaps a lot. However, in the meantime the NHL and the NHLPA have collectively damaged the league across all spectrums (including I suspect team valuations --- who in their right mind would buy an NHL team now?????).

I don't care who you are or how much money you have. If your team worth $250M is losing value before your eyes and there aren't buyers, you're probably not happy.

However, on the other hand, if you are so rich it makes zero difference, sign a frigging deal and tell the fans it's your personal Christmas gift to them! (Yes, I being facetious - but you get my point I hope).

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12-22-2012, 08:15 AM
  #193
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Number8 View Post
I don't care who you are or how much money you have. If your team worth $250M is losing value before your eyes and there aren't buyers, you're probably not happy..
If you have a team which is worth 250M while losing money, imagine what the value would be if the team turned profit?

If the said team went from losing money to say 10M in profits, the value would be increased greatly. 10M in profits using a modest P/E multiplier of 10 would mean the team would be instantly worth 100M more.


Last edited by Fugu: 12-22-2012 at 11:38 AM. Reason: how do you get to say this to people?
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Old
12-22-2012, 09:05 AM
  #194
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If you truly don't believe that the continued instability of the NHL labor situation doesn't negatively impact the owners as well, I hope to God you're not in the finance industry.

If you are, please be so kind as to tell me what firm you are with and I'll make a mental note to avoid said firm.


Last edited by Fugu: 12-22-2012 at 11:38 AM. Reason: qep
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Old
12-22-2012, 09:13 AM
  #195
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Mike Ilitch spent way too much on the Detroit Tigers last year in a last ditch effort to win the World Series before he died.

When Prince Fielder signed his $214M contract... I decided I was done watching baseball. I don't begrudge Fielder or Ilitch.

But I'm just not interested in the obscenity anymore. We've got schools closing. We've got police departments closing. We've got fire halls closing. We've got water mains that are 100+ years old rotting under the streets....

$214M for a fat, out-of-shape first basemen?

Stunning.

I'm getting that way with hockey too...
You might want to edit that first line since Ilitch isn't dead yet.

The players are still stuck in the past with how to deal with the owners for collective bargaining. If they weren't half as stubborn as they've repeatedly shown with their choices, this lockout wouldn't have occurred. You knew the moment they chose Fehr to be their head for this that this season was in major jeopardy and that is coming to fruition.

Labor peace is more important than getting the absolute best deal from a player's point of view at this level, like it or not. They don't have that view and it will cost them more than it will cost the owners.

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Old
12-22-2012, 09:30 AM
  #196
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Originally Posted by schminksbro View Post
If the players conceded 43% the owners would be right back at the end of the deal with another lockout. Guaranteed. It isn't like they want a fair deal. They want everything. If they could hire sweatshop kids and still fill arenas then they would.
So the owners, who spent a ton on these teams and pay players to live a great lifestyle, want to make more profit on their own business franchises?

These guys are just pure evil I say. Nike and Co who run the sorts of things you speak of, are apparently not even close to as evil as the NHL owners.

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12-22-2012, 09:43 AM
  #197
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Mike Ilitch spent way too much on the Detroit Tigers last year in a last ditch effort to win the World Series before he died.

When Prince Fielder signed his $214M contract... I decided I was done watching baseball. I don't begrudge Fielder or Ilitch.

But I'm just not interested in the obscenity anymore. We've got schools closing. We've got police departments closing. We've got fire halls closing. We've got water mains that are 100+ years old rotting under the streets....

$214M for a fat, out-of-shape first basemen?

Stunning.

I'm getting that way with hockey too...
i would say if anyone is worth 214 million it is prince fielder. You got Josh Hamilton who will make what 25 million a year who is always a second away from being banned for life from the MLB. And who is injured all the time. To me he is an example of excessive contract.

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Old
12-22-2012, 09:49 AM
  #198
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Originally Posted by xlnc66 View Post
Go ask Darren Mccarty

"DETROIT -- Darren McCarty of the Calgary Flames has filed for bankruptcy, citing debts of $6.2 million against assets of $1.9 million in his court filing.

Marty Fried, McCarty's lawyer, cited last season's NHL lockout, a divorce that was finalized in February 2005 and a smaller contract with the Flames as reasons for McCarty's bankruptcy filing.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/news/story?id=2406709
he also cited gambling debts. MOD


Last edited by Fugu: 12-22-2012 at 11:39 AM. Reason: let's not generalize based on one man's extreme behavior
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Old
12-22-2012, 10:20 AM
  #199
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Originally Posted by The Last Dynasty View Post
I dare Donald to go after the cap

the league will say "fine, wanna make this nuclear? no guaranteed contracts and by the way...we can't find owners for these teams so we have no choice but to contract 4 teams...that's 92 jobs lost for the PA"
ahhh, victory for the PA!!

The cap is never, NEVER, going away.

I highly doubt Fehr is that dumb to even consider playing that card... but I've been wrong before.

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Old
12-22-2012, 10:28 AM
  #200
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Fehr can't go back and try to get rid of cap, he would get shot down in a nanosecond in NLRB.

NHLPA has already agreed to a hard cap, they can't backtrack on that.

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