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When the NHL cancels the season, Fehr will Fight to Repeal the Cap

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Old
12-22-2012, 11:10 AM
  #201
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Originally Posted by Pepper View Post
Wow...

Bettman has been around for 20 years, what the hell are you doing here anyways if you don't support or enjoy it?

NHLPA is using the DOI as a negotiating tactic, they are trying to force NHL to surrender to their claims. If court rules it's nothing but a sham (which is supported by dozens of comments from PA members), NHLPA is so out of luck. If it was a slam-dunk case, PA would have done it already.

NHLPA won't go for DOI until the last moment, they use it as a leverage. NHL might just call their hand.
Yes Bettman has been here 20 years. During this tenure their has been 1.5 going on 2.5 seasons lost due to labor disputes. In those each of those disputes the league has gotten what it wanted. Yet here we are again. I do not believe there is a deal that can be made that would not have the owners locking out again and demanding more. Without meaningful revenue sharing the weak market teams will never succeed. The rich owners will never agree to share with the "cough" poor owners. Instead they want the players to financially prop up the failing teams. The owners made millions up front with their failed expansion scheme which has led to the whole problem. Still no meaningful revenue sharing so the same scenario exists even if the players signed any offer that has been on the table. The owners refuse to address the real problem so we will be right back to lockout negotiations the next CBA in which the owners will demand more concessions. I am here voicing my opinion because beyond withholding my money (which I intend to do) there is no other actual recourse that a fan has.

Bettman also severed with ESPN which was the closest we have had to a real national TV deal which would go a long way toward fixing the money problems.

I also have to admit that their is a certain soap opera quality to this whole debacle. They have ruined hockey. Now the hockey labor dispute is the only game in town.

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12-22-2012, 11:17 AM
  #202
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Originally Posted by Pepper View Post
Fehr can't go back and try to get rid of cap, he would get shot down in a nanosecond in NLRB.

NHLPA has already agreed to a hard cap, they can't backtrack on that.
They can if they dissolve the union. Anything in any previous CBA will null and void. A salary cap can only exist in a collective bargaining contract.

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12-22-2012, 11:23 AM
  #203
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schminksbro View Post
Yes Bettman has been here 20 years. During this tenure their has been 1.5 going on 2.5 seasons lost due to labor disputes. In those each of those disputes the league has gotten what it wanted. Yet here we are again. I do not believe there is a deal that can be made that would not have the owners locking out again and demanding more. Without meaningful revenue sharing the weak market teams will never succeed. The rich owners will never agree to share with the "cough" poor owners. Instead they want the players to financially prop up the failing teams. The owners made millions up front with their failed expansion scheme which has led to the whole problem. Still no meaningful revenue sharing so the same scenario exists even if the players signed any offer that has been on the table. The owners refuse to address the real problem so we will be right back to lockout negotiations the next CBA in which the owners will demand more concessions. I am here voicing my opinion because beyond withholding my money (which I intend to do) there is no other actual recourse that a fan has.

Bettman also severed with ESPN which was the closest we have had to a real national TV deal which would go a long way toward fixing the money problems.

I also have to admit that their is a certain soap opera quality to this whole debacle. They have ruined hockey. Now the hockey labor dispute is the only game in town.
Here are some facts that you may be missing. In 94 they wanted to implement a cap and was unsuccessful in doing so which led to the players getting the quoted 74% of HRR during that CBA timeframe. In 2004, yes the owners got the cap that they were looking for however if I remember it correctly, the owners would have preferred to not have it linked to revenue but rather set the cap some other way. If you're wondering why their fighting so much for linkage now if they didn't want it in the first place then I'm guessing it's because it still means they get their cap.

Was Bettman and Jacobs a constant through all three lockouts? Yes. Was Goodenow a constant between 1 strike and two lockouts and possibly involved in this one? You bet your behind (except for the possibly in this one, no one really knows publicly). Was Fehr involved in 1 MLB strike, 1 or 2 threatened MLB strikes while they continued to play and bent the owners over at the end, 1 official NHL lockout (this one) and 1 unnoficial NHL lockout [mod].

So pretty sure there are constants and history on the other side as well.

As far as revenue sharing goes, you do know why there has been no mention of it by the PA right? Because they've upped it significantly and changed how it's given out so that it's more top to bottom.


Last edited by Fugu: 12-22-2012 at 11:44 AM. Reason: let's stop spreading baseless rumors
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12-22-2012, 11:25 AM
  #204
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If the season ultimately gets cancelled, and the league and the PA fight it out in federal court...the NHL will go the way of the AFL (Arena Football League). That league had to rop a year or 2 because of player costs.

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12-22-2012, 11:28 AM
  #205
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Originally Posted by NJDevs26 View Post
If the players want to kill two years or more to get rid of the cap, c'est la vie...eventually teams will contract and there won't be as many jobs to fight over, then they can enjoy a 24-team NHL where only five or six teams can spend and everyone else is SOL.

Not to mention a completely disillusioned fanbase that will disappear with a lockout that long.
24 team NHL sounds amazing to me. Can they fix the draft system too?

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12-22-2012, 11:46 AM
  #206
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Originally Posted by Pepper View Post
Ummm what? Just about every so-called expert is telling that NHLPA is going to have a hard time convincing the court this is not a sham or a negotiation tactic.
Have you read any of the experts' analyses?



Quote:
Originally Posted by schminksbro View Post
They can if they dissolve the union. Anything in any previous CBA will null and void. A salary cap can only exist in a collective bargaining contract.
Besides, NLRB cannot impose or ban caps. A cap is only in place as long as both sides agree to the system. Hence the term "collective" which it would be in the owners' interests to review.

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12-22-2012, 11:50 AM
  #207
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Originally Posted by LPHabsFan View Post
Here are some facts that you may be missing. In 94 they wanted to implement a cap and was unsuccessful in doing so which led to the players getting the quoted 74% of HRR during that CBA timeframe. In 2004, yes the owners got the cap that they were looking for however if I remember it correctly, the owners would have preferred to not have it linked to revenue but rather set the cap some other way. If you're wondering why their fighting so much for linkage now if they didn't want it in the first place then I'm guessing it's because it still means they get their cap.

Was Bettman and Jacobs a constant through all three lockouts? Yes. Was Goodenow a constant between 1 strike and two lockouts and possibly involved in this one? You bet your behind (except for the possibly in this one, no one really knows publicly). Was Fehr involved in 1 MLB strike, 1 or 2 threatened MLB strikes while they continued to play and bent the owners over at the end, 1 official NHL lockout (this one) and 1 unnoficial NHL lockout (mod).

So pretty sure there are constants and history on the other side as well.

As far as revenue sharing goes, you do know why there has been no mention of it by the PA right? Because they've upped it significantly and changed how it's given out so that it's more top to bottom.
I am not even sure what your arguing. Sure the owners have never gotten everything they wanted. That is the whole point. For the owners there will never be enough and the chosen negotiation tactic is lockout. I believe that the players hired Fehr to try to end the cycle. The only way to end the cycle at this point is to drag the owners into court. They knew their would be carnage. Total capitulation wasn't going to end the cycle either. That would only make the next time worse.

MOD


Last edited by Fugu: 12-22-2012 at 12:19 PM. Reason: response to edited post
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12-22-2012, 12:00 PM
  #208
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schminksbro View Post
I am not even sure what your arguing. Sure the owners have never gotten everything they wanted. That is the whole point. For the owners there will never be enough and the chosen negotiation tactic is lockout. I believe that the players hired Fehr to try to end the cycle. The only way to end the cycle at this point is to drag the owners into court. They knew their would be carnage. Total capitulation wasn't going to end the cycle either. That would only make the next time worse.

MOD
The point was to dispell the notion that Bettman and Jacobs are the only constant in these work stoppages going back to 1992 that you were trying to point out in the post I quoted. It was also to point out the fact that it's simply not true that the owners are unwilling to help eachother out based on the fact that revenue sharing will increase and be changed dramatically.

MOD

As far as capitulation, where did I ever say that I wanted nor do I think they need to capitulate. At some point these two sides are going to have to act like adults and work together towards a common goal. They tried to do that without the two leaders in the room and well, you can choose to believe whatever report you want as far as why talks broke down.


Last edited by Fugu: 12-22-2012 at 12:20 PM. Reason: qep
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12-22-2012, 12:02 PM
  #209
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Originally Posted by Melrose Munch View Post
Most likely. I love the fact people complain the owners built this and then get mad when they ask for task money. The Union hate is carried over from real life.
Yeah, it appears that many here believe that a union's job is to capitulate to whatever the owners demand. I will laugh for 3 days straight if the players union dissolves! Drag em into court Boys!

In Michigan the UAW made huge concessions and now the Big 3 are doing better than ever. What did the right wing do in response? Jammed Right to Work legislation through the lame duck session knowing that only 6% of the population supports it. There is no partnering with the fat cats. They only want to get fatter. NHL owners are fat cats.

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12-22-2012, 12:11 PM
  #210
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Originally Posted by LPHabsFan View Post
The point was to dispell the notion that Bettman and Jacobs are the only constant in these work stoppages going back to 1992 that you were trying to point out in the post I quoted. It was also to point out the fact that it's simply not true that the owners are unwilling to help eachother out based on the fact that revenue sharing will increase and be changed dramatically.

MOD

As far as capitulation, where did I ever say that I wanted nor do I think they need to capitulate. At some point these two sides are going to have to act like adults and work together towards a common goal. They tried to do that without the two leaders in the room and well, you can choose to believe whatever report you want as far as why talks broke down.
I have long ago given up on that ever happening. That is why I hope the PA dissolves and this goes to court. If I am ever to support the league again this is what has to play out. The meager increase in RS is just a small victory for the players but really it is a bandaid on a bullet hole. This whole mess has to cause the owners some real pain in order to break the cycle. If that means the whole league has to fold? So be it. They have lost me as a fan already.

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12-22-2012, 12:17 PM
  #211
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Originally Posted by schminksbro View Post
If that were the case they wouldn't be pursuing it. The PA has lawyers too. They know the law and they know precedent. If they dissolve the union then its bye, bye cap! I can't wait! From my perspective Bettman's reign has destroyed the league I used to support and enjoy. After 3 lockouts and a destruction of the history and tradition of the NHL I no longer wish to support it. Bettman is never going to be fired. The only way for me to get my pound of flesh is if the players win or the more likely scenario where the whole thing burns.
This is mystifying to me. I just don't understand how a fan of a sport can wish for its premier league to die. IMO, no league of the NHL's caliber will spring up to take its place. I'll miss the game tremendously.

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You might want to edit that first line since Ilitch isn't dead yet.
Details, details!

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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Have you read any of the experts' analyses?
The key isn't to read "any" of them, it's to read as many as you can. There are articles, opinions, etc., which don't worship at the feet of the PA. It's understandable to not want to read the ones that don't support one's position, however, that doesn't mean they don't exist.

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12-22-2012, 12:18 PM
  #212
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Originally Posted by schminksbro View Post
I have long ago given up on that ever happening. That is why I hope the PA dissolves and this goes to court. If I am ever to support the league again this is what has to play out. The meager increase in RS is just a small victory for the players but really it is a bandaid on a bullet hole. This whole mess has to cause the owners some real pain in order to break the cycle. If that means the whole league has to fold? So be it. They have lost me as a fan already.
Lowered costs plus increased revenue sharing theoretically should make things more profitable for owners and as a result players. Will it? I don't know. You may think it won't work however that really isn't for you or I to do decide.

Beyond that I'd like to know if you've actually taken a good long look at what each side has given up and what they've gotten.

And if you've already decided to not be a fan of the NHL then why are you posting on a hockey forum and devoting time to the NHL?

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12-22-2012, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Have you read any of the experts' analyses?
.
Yes, several in fact. Have you?

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12-22-2012, 12:24 PM
  #214
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Fehr openly knows that they don't want the crumbs he is tossing the ownership and will use it as an excuse to target the cap? Greedy owners.

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12-22-2012, 12:25 PM
  #215
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24 team NHL sounds amazing to me.
Same here. Where do we sign?

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12-22-2012, 12:29 PM
  #216
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Originally Posted by Pepper View Post
Yes, several in fact. Have you?

All of the ones published about the DOI and decertification. So which of your experts have said what you claimed:

Ummm what? Just about every so-called expert is telling that NHLPA is going to have a hard time convincing the court this is not a sham or a negotiation tactic.


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Originally Posted by Canadian Guy View Post
Most of the legal experts on the board seem to agree that this going to court favours the NHLPA because in it's lawsuit the NHL is asking for a whole lot

He clearly was saying that, overall, the PA has the law on its side (anti trust). The lockout will be viewed as legal. No court or labor board can force players to be in a union, so they'll file anti trust lawsuits.

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12-22-2012, 12:32 PM
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I don't pretend to know how this will play out.

However part of the reason this vote took so long was that the players needed to be informed of exactly what this vote meant, including the possible repercussions of same.

With that in mind, if you think that a 97% positive vote is some sort of tenuous, short lived, and precarious position you are going to be disappointed.
I doubt it. Players will cave...eventually.

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12-22-2012, 12:36 PM
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I doubt it. Players will cave...eventually.
The question is when is eventually.The players might as well take the risk in losing the whole season.

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12-22-2012, 12:37 PM
  #219
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I doubt it. Players will cave...eventually.
So will the owners...eventually.

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12-22-2012, 12:38 PM
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Losing $1.7B in salaries (which they would've gotten had they just taken the October offer) far outweighs anything they could possibly can from there on out.
That's what people said last time, too. And they were wrong - the PA reaped enormous benefits from their brinksmanship.

Until we see what the final deal looks like here, no way to know that doesn't happen again.

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12-22-2012, 12:39 PM
  #221
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Originally Posted by oilersfan11 View Post
The question is when is eventually.The players might as well take the risk in losing the whole season.
Sure. Loy's of them will then be in shock at where they stand. Especially knowing the NHL will go for two years if need be, just like last time. Players cannot win financially. Sign and start playing.

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12-22-2012, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
All of the ones published about the DOI and decertification.
Gotta call you on this one. Are you seriously saying that you have read every single article appearing in every single publication about this issue? Every single one in the world? North America? It's impossible that you missed even one?

C'mon.

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12-22-2012, 12:40 PM
  #223
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The question is when is eventually.The players might as well take the risk in losing the whole season.
The whole season was written off by both sides before last season ended. As the majority of posters here at Hf voted in a poll months ago.......fergitaboutit.

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12-22-2012, 12:41 PM
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That's what people said last time, too. And they were wrong - the PA reaped enormous benefits from their brinksmanship.

Until we see what the final deal looks like here, no way to know that doesn't happen again.
Fair enough. I'm presuming we get something between a 50% and 57% cap when I say the players could never recover their losses.

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12-22-2012, 12:43 PM
  #225
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Originally Posted by Dado View Post
That's what people said last time, too. And they were wrong - the PA reaped enormous benefits from their brinksmanship.

Until we see what the final deal looks like here, no way to know that doesn't happen again.
They did reap benefits from the result of it. However you can't argue the fact that they still lost out on whatever amount of money they were due to recieve. How many players really view it as being worth it?

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