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The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, and NHL revenues.

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Old
12-22-2012, 12:36 AM
  #76
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There are far worse things to do for a living than to be paid well in Euro's, lower tax rates, be supplied with housing and a car, play fewer games, less burnout. The lifestyle in Sweden, Finland, Russia or wherever else aint too shabby. If 60, 80, 120 jobs are lost, these are guys making league minimum or maybe a million, which after taxes etc they can easily make in Europe. Sign with the Leafs or Philly, NYR or wherever on a one way and play in the AHL/NHL/AHL/NHL type dealeo. Up & down. Maybe stick, maybe not....
why aren't they there now, many with their families, if the conditions are potentially better than in the NHL?

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12-22-2012, 12:38 AM
  #77
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It's business.
Let's hope that the players figure that out.

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12-22-2012, 12:38 AM
  #78
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why aren't they there now, many with their families, if the conditions are potentially better than in the NHL?
Because it isn't.

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12-22-2012, 12:41 AM
  #79
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bbbb

Because they gain the upper hand, the leverage theyve been lacking. The NHL began this process in filing with the Courts & NLRB, the NHLPA now reacting, and believe me Pepty, I dont care if you bring in the brightest Legal minds from the other 3 pro sports leagues & Proskauer Rose to take on the NHLPA, this thing goes anti-trust, the NHL is screwed and they know it.

The complaint filed with the NLRB is also a sham, as that organizations going to take forever to decide anything, all the while pushing the two sides to find a solution on their own, a seemingly impossible task now as if reports are true that Gary Bettman cant even handle being in the same room with Fehr anymore, its gone personal, then it could be Gary who's walking the plank this time around. His moves have been recklessly confrontational, and now this latest high wire act, no net, leaving the league exposed.

If teams & players jobs are lost, its the NHL thats responsible for it, not the cattle. I dont believe it will get to this point, as I think the fear amongst any number of the franchises after hearing from their own Council will cause mass panic attacks once they realize what Bettman & his strategists have very foolishly thrown a lit match at.

Edit Note; 2 years a number mentioned in several substantive media reports, and I believe it. I believe Fehr has the backing of over 95% of his constituents, has vocalised & versed his opinions, the options & strategies clearly & succinctly, the players in for a penny or a pound, with him & each other all the way Baby. Whatever it takes. People crucify them all they want for walking away from all that cash & a "business life" (if you can call it that) of luxury, short careers or not. Is it stupid, foolish, headstrong? Thats for you to decide.
How I read this is that if they succeed in scaring the NHL then it will be to their advantage.

That may be true, but if they don't scare the league and follow through with a 2 year work stoppage and anti trust lawsuits and the loss of teams, whoever may or may not be at fault, it sounds like a disaster for the players as much or even more than for the owners.

I don't think its Bettman who has a problem being in the room with Fehr but the moderate owners who were disgusted by his behaviour when he was brought in at the end of the player/owner negotiation. Even then its more a matter of believing he is not someone who can or will make a deal; it was believed he sabotaged a promising negotiation.

As far as the wreckage of careers this would cause it may seem romantic to say they are in it all the way, damn the torpedoes. but I doubt very much that is what most of the players feel, this vote not withstanding and the results of which are not really a surprise.

Now if they just let them vote on an actual agreement then maybe opinions of Fehr and the way he has steered this whole process might be revised.

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12-22-2012, 12:51 AM
  #80
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Let's hope that the players figure that out.

They have. Never figured you'd be a guy to want to keep unions around. Why do you figure these employers wouldn't cheer when the union disbands and immediately throw open the doors to the factories?

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I don't think its Bettman who has a problem being in the room with Fehr but the moderate owners who were disgusted by his behaviour when he was brought in at the end of the player/owner negotiation. Even then its more a matter of believing he is not someone who can or will make a deal; it was believed he sabotaged a promising negotiation.
What did he do? Pick his nose? Let some gas pass? Put his feet up on the table?


He sabotaged a promising negotiation? I think if the players in the room believed that, we woudn't be here right now. You just keep bringing this up in every single thread, pepty.

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12-22-2012, 12:54 AM
  #81
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They have. Never figured you'd be a guy to want to keep unions around.

What?

I love unions.

Who else has the power to keep employees in line?

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12-22-2012, 12:57 AM
  #82
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why aren't they there now, many with their families, if the conditions are potentially better than in the NHL?
I'd imagine with the vast majority there hoping this gets resolved, would prefer to play out their careers in the NHL. However, if push comes to shove, the situation truly unravels, its an option many will no doubt be exercising.

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How I read this is that if they succeed in scaring the NHL then it will be to their advantage.... That may be true, but if they don't scare the league and follow through with a 2 year work stoppage and anti trust lawsuits and the loss of teams, whoever may or may not be at fault, it sounds like a disaster for the players as much or even more than for the owners.
Well, put into context, the comments from the PA's side have been along the lines of "if it takes 1 year, 2 years, then thats what were prepared for". If this does go all litigious, it'll definitely run 2yrs, possibly longer, but as I said and as youve noted, I believe its all thus far pure brinkmanship, that it wont unravel to that point, that an accord will be struck as the last thing the NHL wants is decertification; Pandoras' Box opened. But assuming for a moment that it does happen, a Nuclear Winter, smaller league, I think the players will make out just fine actually. The owners simply cant help themselves. They'll pay, and pay large.

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12-22-2012, 12:57 AM
  #83
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I don't think its Bettman who has a problem being in the room with Fehr but the moderate owners who were disgusted by his behaviour when he was brought in at the end of the player/owner negotiation. Even then its more a matter of believing he is not someone who can or will make a deal; it was believed he sabotaged a promising negotiation.

....

Now if they just let them vote on an actual agreement then maybe opinions of Fehr and the way he has steered this whole process might be revised.
Yes, as Fugu is saying, it seems fairly certain now that the players in that meeting, prior to the return of Fehr to the scene, were simply doing a very good job of sandbagging the owners. They were probably coached well by Fehr to do that.

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12-22-2012, 01:00 AM
  #84
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I'd imagine with the vast majority there hoping this gets resolved, would prefer to play out their careers in the NHL. However, if push comes to shove, the situation truly unravels, its an option many will no doubt be exercising.
Well of course many of them will do it if at they at all see it beneficial for them under the resulting circumstances. But is it that they'd really be willing to put themselves in that situation?

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12-22-2012, 01:06 AM
  #85
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Exactly.

It destroyed both the NBA and the NFL.

Both leagues are suffering under the misguided attempts by management to pull the wool over their employee's eyes, and it's the fans and players that pay for it every single day.

My only hope is that when he's done correcting the NHL's mistakes, Mr. Fehr sets his sights on the NFL and the NBA.

This kind of continual owner oppression is an anathema to anyone who values freedom.

Two million a year means nothing if it comes with a dog collar.
All sarcasm aside, I think the players really have figured out that its just business.

This is why they're taking steps to decertify.

I wouldn't hold the NFL up as a wonderful labour model to follow. It happens to have fabulous revenue streams that generate extraordinary profits for the owners, both in terms of operations and capital gains on franchise values. Despite that, NFL players have lower average salaries, shorter careers on average, and a higher incidence of serious debilitating injuries than NHL, NBA or MLB players. Some success from the player side!

Basketball? From what I understand the salary cap is an illusion, which is in my view is a good thing for that sport. NBA players might be happy with a smaller percentage of operating revenue than NHL players want, merely because NBA rosters are so much smaller. On a per capita basis, they come out ahead both in terms of percentage of revenue per player, and on an actual dollar basis. Hockey has bigger rosters, and I'm not surprised that cuts to the players' share of HRR doesn't come as easily.

Finally, no matter how much money you make, it can burn you to watch somebody else make even more money from what you do. In this case, the NHLPA feels that it is not being offered a fair share of the pie. I like the players over the owners any day, and I don't blame them.

Maybe you just like the owners more, because there's no other logical explanation for running the players down for claiming what they believe is their fair share.

Whatever else it is, being a pro hockey player at any level is certainly not a soft life.

If it were as soft and easy as pro-management posters suggest, then why don't those people go get some skates and sticks and become pro hockey players themselves? Because they can't do it. They're not capable of doing that. It really isn't that easy.

I've never been neutral in this. I just like the hockey players I grew up with who played in the NHL and have since retired, and younger ones who made it from the community where I live, and I just hope for the best for the young ones now in the pros and in junior and minor hockey wanting good rewarding careers. God bless them for trying to get the best deal they can. I hope they do well whatever happens.

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12-22-2012, 01:09 AM
  #86
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Well of course many of them will do it if at they at all see it beneficial for them under the resulting circumstances. But is it that they'd really be willing to put themselves in that situation?
Well sure, why not? If your like 21, 25, 29 or whatever, why not go and play in Europe. Make a few bucks, mebbe retire to Mazatlan, set up a fishing charter business, spend the rest of your days going after Sailfish & Mahi Mahi on the Sea of Cortez. But if your asking "would they really go all out & sit for up to 2yrs, decertify, launch anti-trust suits" etc etc? I believe they are resolved to do just that, and there will be attrition. A lot of them opting out of North America altogether, some signing in the AHL.

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12-22-2012, 01:13 AM
  #87
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What did he do? Pick his nose? Let some gas pass? Put his feet up on the table?

He sabotaged a promising negotiation? I think if the players in the room believed that, we woudn't be here right now. You just keep bringing this up in every single thread, pepty.
As I mentioned, they believed he sabotaged the agreement though the nose picking and passing of gas would not be a surprise ; he looks a little rumply and with all the water breaks and so on he may well have a gastric problem.

Perhaps you are a little sensitive about the topic as I haven't really brought it up often and again was answering killions complaint that Bettman didn't want to be in the same room as Fehr.

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12-22-2012, 01:16 AM
  #88
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. . . if they don't scare the league and follow through with a 2 year work stoppage and anti trust lawsuits and the loss of teams, whoever may or may not be at fault, it sounds like a disaster for the players as much or even more than for the owners. . .
. . . unless the players sue the NHL and win treble damages.

Then, they could come out ahead by losing two seasons while being paid for three.

And, after all that, resuming play in an open market where supply and demand dictates the price for hockey talent, which in the past has caused the owners to spend a much higher portion of revenue on player salaries.

No wonder the players might not want to have a union anymore.

A lot of good the union is doing for them now. The existence of the union allows the league to lock them out. That's how much good its doing for the players.

I think they're tired of being locked out.

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12-22-2012, 01:19 AM
  #89
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I'd imagine with the vast majority there hoping this gets resolved, would prefer to play out their careers in the NHL. However, if push comes to shove, the situation truly unravels, its an option many will no doubt be exercising.
Well, put into context, the comments from the PA's side have been along the lines of "if it takes 1 year, 2 years, then thats what were prepared for". If this does go all litigious, it'll definitely run 2yrs, possibly longer, but as I said and as youve noted, I believe its all thus far pure brinkmanship, that it wont unravel to that point, that an accord will be struck as the last thing the NHL wants is decertification; Pandoras' Box opened. But assuming for a moment that it does happen, a Nuclear Winter, smaller league, I think the players will make out just fine actually. The owners simply cant help themselves. They'll pay, and pay large.
When Pandoras Box is opened then who knows what flies out?. And if teams are driven into bankruptcy by anti trust legislation or the threat of it there wont be many teams around to be paying never mind paying large.

The best players will be compensated the rest will take lower pay or be out of jobs.

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12-22-2012, 01:19 AM
  #90
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As I mentioned, they believed he sabotaged the agreement though the nose picking and passing of gas would not be a surprise ; he looks a little rumply and with all the water breaks and so on he may well have a gastric problem.

Perhaps you are a little sensitive about the topic as I haven't really brought it up often and again was answering killions complaint that Bettman didn't want to be in the same room as Fehr.
Yeah, its tough on Bettman. He always likes to feel like he's the smartest guy in the room.

Better for him not to go in some rooms. Especially rooms with guys like Fehr and others who refuse to acknowledge his intellectual superiority and to do exactly what he says!

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12-22-2012, 01:21 AM
  #91
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. . . unless the players sue the NHL and win treble damages.

Then, they could come out ahead by losing two seasons while being paid for three.

And, after all that, resuming play in an open market where supply and demand dictates the price for hockey talent, which in the past has caused the owners to spend a much higher portion of revenue on player salaries.

No wonder the players might not want to have a union anymore.

A lot of good the union is doing for them now. The existence of the union allows the league to lock them out. That's how much good its doing for the players.

I think they're tired of being locked out.
If your scenario happens they would not only not have a union, they wouldn't have a league.

Anyone believing the owners would pay out gigantic anti-trust penalties while having no revenue and then decide to continue running the league for players to thrive in under conditions that are worse than the ones that gave players more than 70% of revenue might be surprised when the owners say they're not all that interested.

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12-22-2012, 01:21 AM
  #92
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Whatever else it is, being a pro hockey player at any level is certainly not a soft life.

If it were as soft and easy as pro-management posters suggest, then why don't those people go get some skates and sticks and become pro hockey players themselves? Because they can't do it. They're not capable of doing that. It really isn't that easy.

I've never been neutral in this. I just like the hockey players I grew up with who played in the NHL and have since retired, and younger ones who made it from the community where I live, and I just hope for the best for the young ones now in the pros and in junior and minor hockey wanting good rewarding careers. God bless them for trying to get the best deal they can. I hope they do well whatever happens.
No one should ever say that being a hockey player is easy or that it's something that just anyone can do, and it's not a soft life. But hey man, you make it sound as though they're suffering miners working in coal mines from 90 years ago. God bless the hockey coal miners.

Hockey players aren't forced into playing hockey,... get out there son, sacrifice for your family, play hockey to help support the family... Hockey players are doing what they love, what they dedicated themselves to do. And in this day and age, they earn very good money, have excellent benefits, and the like. Yes, it's difficult, tough, and all that, but it's not generally a life chosen because they're forced into it due to life circumstances beyond their control.

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12-22-2012, 01:22 AM
  #93
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706 - 22 says it all.

They are willing to allow the PA to file a DOI.

97% of the Union membership wants the Executive Committee to walk away from the players. I don't see how anyone could see it any other way.

The Fehr Factor has been cancelled, and Rogan's moved on to MMA.
There is no way that 97% of players want to file a DOI, hell I bet less than 50% do.

The NHLPA does, however, want to use the treat of DOI to get a better deal.

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12-22-2012, 01:22 AM
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When Pandoras Box is opened then who knows what flies out?. And if teams are driven into bankruptcy by anti trust legislation or the threat of it there wont be many teams around to be paying never mind paying large.

The best players will be compensated the rest will take lower pay or be out of jobs.
If six teams fold the 250 most marginal players will lose their jobs. The others will likely make even more money in a league without the financial losers. Good riddance. Good for hockey. It sure won't break my heart when Phoenix, Columbus, Florida and a few other of those 18 monley-losing teams close-up shop!

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12-22-2012, 01:24 AM
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Hockey players aren't forced into playing hockey,... get out there son, sacrifice for your family, play hockey to help support the family... Hockey players are doing what they love, what they dedicated themselves to do. And in this day and age, they earn very good money, have excellent benefits, and the like. Yes, it's difficult, tough, and all that, but it's not generally a life chosen because they're forced into it due to life circumstances beyond their control.
I guess you never heard of Walter Gretzky.

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12-22-2012, 01:25 AM
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. . . unless the players sue the NHL and win treble damages.

Then, they could come out ahead by losing two seasons while being paid for three.

And, after all that, resuming play in an open market where supply and demand dictates the price for hockey talent, which in the past has caused the owners to spend a much higher portion of revenue on player salaries.

No wonder the players might not want to have a union anymore.

A lot of good the union is doing for them now. The existence of the union allows the league to lock them out. That's how much good its doing for the players.

I think they're tired of being locked out.
If this is what Fehr is selling. then the players are living in a dream world.

Under this scenario the league would contract sharply. There would be many fewer jobs and thought the top player pay would go up the rest of the players would take whatever they were offered and many would never find a job.
.
Instead of a growing game there would be a smaller footprint as the league contracted and it wold be harder to get lucrative broadcasting rights.

it might not kill the league but it would be a blow and the players would pay the price for many years to come.

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12-22-2012, 01:27 AM
  #97
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I guess you never heard of Walter Gretzky.
Well yes, NHL owners should rightly compensate hockey players who were forced to play hockey by their parents. I didn't think of that.

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12-22-2012, 01:28 AM
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.... answering killions complaint that Bettman didn't want to be in the same room as Fehr.
Answering my "complaint" were you? Do you not read the articles & reports posted in the sticky section atop the BOH Board? Its not "my complaint", its an observation, an opinion espoused by those who have been in the room, witnessed the breakdowns. I dont have any skin in this game. Nothing whatsoever to do with the NHLPA nor the NHL, any of its member teams.... what about you pepty? Do you have a business relationship with an NHL club, the league itself, any of its sponsors, a sub-contractor perhaps?

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12-22-2012, 01:29 AM
  #99
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A lot of good the union is doing for them now. The existence of the union allows the league to lock them out. That's how much good its doing for the players.

I think they're tired of being locked out.
That's what I'm thinking too. The union membership makes it very easy to cut pay and clawback on guaranteed contracts, via linkage and lockouts. It's only possible because the union exists.


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When Pandoras Box is opened then who knows what flies out?. And if teams are driven into bankruptcy by anti trust legislation or the threat of it there wont be many teams around to be paying never mind paying large.

The best players will be compensated the rest will take lower pay or be out of jobs.
Some people respond to the unknown by accepting the challenge, while others fear the unknown. You seem to be advocating that changes that can get rid of something that is supposed to protect players that now is used against them is a very scary world. Maybe they don't believe that. I like their odds, which will always be a few hundred young men who are the best in the world at what they do.

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12-22-2012, 01:29 AM
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Well yes, NHL owners should rightly compensate hockey players who were forced to play hockey by their parents. I didn't think of that.
Then was your point entirely irrelevant to begin with?

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