HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The History of Hockey
The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Eric Lindros vs. Mark Messier - Who was more dominant in his prime?

View Poll Results: Eric Lindros vs. Mark Messier - Who was more dominant in his prime?
Eric Lindros 159 67.66%
Mark Messier 76 32.34%
Voters: 235. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
12-22-2012, 07:01 PM
  #26
Clown Baby
Registered User
 
Clown Baby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,538
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
I like to vote against Messier a lot, but I'm not sure which way to go here really. The short answer is Lindros I think. But then I think back to the playoffs that these guys had...Messier was the bully, regardless of the situation, down 3-0 to the Isles in the '83 Finals, it's Messier that goes out there and just starts mashing faces...whether it was productive or dirty or tone-setting, it happened.

Lindros, I seem to recall getting picked on during the playoffs. Like Joe Thornton. The Lightning using Michel Petit, Igor Ulanov and other hard-hitting annoyances out there against him, they picked on him after the play, away from the play and just kind of threw sticks and stones at him until he crumbled. Darius Kasparaitis and Tomas Sandstrom in Pittsburgh, they picked on him. Not the other way around.

That's the only thing that's really keeping me from voting Lindros. The images in my head of Lindros of being the object bullying in the crunch instead of the bully, like Messier was.










Last edited by Clown Baby: 12-22-2012 at 07:06 PM.
Clown Baby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-22-2012, 07:17 PM
  #27
jkrx
Registered User
 
jkrx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,195
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clown Baby View Post
videos
Posting videos of Lindros retaliating after Konstantinov and the rest agitating him doesn't really prove anything except that he was physical. Lindros scored 3 points that series (2 in one game) and were pretty much invicible.

jkrx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-22-2012, 07:20 PM
  #28
mja
Negative Creep
 
mja's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,998
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
I like to vote against Messier a lot, but I'm not sure which way to go here really. The short answer is Lindros I think. But then I think back to the playoffs that these guys had...Messier was the bully, regardless of the situation, down 3-0 to the Isles in the '83 Finals, it's Messier that goes out there and just starts mashing faces...whether it was productive or dirty or tone-setting, it happened.

Lindros, I seem to recall getting picked on during the playoffs. Like Joe Thornton. The Lightning using Michel Petit, Igor Ulanov and other hard-hitting annoyances out there against him, they picked on him after the play, away from the play and just kind of threw sticks and stones at him until he crumbled. Darius Kasparaitis and Tomas Sandstrom in Pittsburgh, they picked on him. Not the other way around.

That's the only thing that's really keeping me from voting Lindros. The images in my head of Lindros of being the object bullying in the crunch instead of the bully, like Messier was.
Um, what?

The end result of Ulanov's "bullying" was the privilege of having Lindros re-arrange his face for him after first securing a series-clinching blow-out.

mja is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-22-2012, 07:24 PM
  #29
mja
Negative Creep
 
mja's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,998
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
Posting videos of Lindros retaliating after Konstantinov and the rest agitating him doesn't really prove anything except that he was physical. Lindros scored 3 points that series (2 in one game) and were pretty much invicible.
While this is true, it doesn't support the assertion that Lindros crumbled after being bullied. The reason he was pretty much invisible in that series is largely because Detroit didn't engage him physically. They had Lidstrom & Murphy play keep away instead and Lindros was completely flummoxed by it.

mja is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-22-2012, 08:52 PM
  #30
ot92s
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 737
vCash: 500
lindros. messier was a much better skater but lindros, at his best, was a force of nature who's style has never been matched in the league. sorry mess, you had a much better career but at their peak I gotta take the big guy.

ot92s is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-22-2012, 09:36 PM
  #31
monster_bertuzzi
registered user
 
monster_bertuzzi's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 29,463
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mja View Post
While this is true, it doesn't support the assertion that Lindros crumbled after being bullied. The reason he was pretty much invisible in that series is largely because Detroit didn't engage him physically. They had Lidstrom & Murphy play keep away instead and Lindros was completely flummoxed by it.
He was also up against a vastly superior team in retrospect now thats it's 15 years later. At the time it was seen as kind of a choke job by Lindros and the leagion of doom, but it was simply a much better team winning.

monster_bertuzzi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-22-2012, 09:46 PM
  #32
zeus3007*
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Red Deer, Alberta
Posts: 13,228
vCash: 500
Messier is pretty underrated around here, people don't seem to remember how effective he was in his prime.

zeus3007* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-22-2012, 10:17 PM
  #33
vadim sharifijanov
Registered User
 
vadim sharifijanov's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 8,839
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
I like to vote against Messier a lot, but I'm not sure which way to go here really. The short answer is Lindros I think. But then I think back to the playoffs that these guys had...Messier was the bully, regardless of the situation, down 3-0 to the Isles in the '83 Finals, it's Messier that goes out there and just starts mashing faces...whether it was productive or dirty or tone-setting, it happened.

Lindros, I seem to recall getting picked on during the playoffs. Like Joe Thornton. The Lightning using Michel Petit, Igor Ulanov and other hard-hitting annoyances out there against him, they picked on him after the play, away from the play and just kind of threw sticks and stones at him until he crumbled. Darius Kasparaitis and Tomas Sandstrom in Pittsburgh, they picked on him. Not the other way around.

That's the only thing that's really keeping me from voting Lindros. The images in my head of Lindros of being the object bullying in the crunch instead of the bully, like Messier was.
very good point. i'd also add that you could get lindros off his game by engaging him physically or with chippy play, or even just by frustrating him defensively. on the other hand, while messier would certainly engage with you if you started hacking him, he'd end it right then and there. and you'd have a bloody nose or broken wrist. you knew better than to mess with mess, and you certainly couldn't get him off his game with para-game antics, at least not after his first few years. with lindros, that was a legitimately successful tactic.

vadim sharifijanov is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-23-2012, 01:02 AM
  #34
seventieslord
Moderator
 
seventieslord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Regina, SK
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,633
vCash: 500
I've read what was said, and I'm convinced it's Messier.

seventieslord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-23-2012, 03:37 AM
  #35
Darth Yoda
Registered User
 
Darth Yoda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Grovebranch's Crease
Country: Sweden
Posts: 2,789
vCash: 593
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Shadows View Post
Assuming we take into account that Lindros' crash and bang style was the reason he missed several games a season even before the concussion problems, and hold those missed games against him.

I vote Messier. I saw an Eric Lindros capable of matching Messier's 1990 season, but unable to sustain it over a full season.
Lindros scored as much playing 70 games as Messier did in 80.

Darth Yoda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-23-2012, 07:54 AM
  #36
jkrx
Registered User
 
jkrx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,195
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
Lindros scored as much playing 70 games as Messier did in 80.
Thats a weird statement considering Messier never played 80 games in his prime.

jkrx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-23-2012, 01:01 PM
  #37
vadim sharifijanov
Registered User
 
vadim sharifijanov's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 8,839
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
Thats a weird statement considering Messier never played 80 games in his prime.
and furthermore, that lindros only twice played more than 65 games in a season, pre-scott stevens.


i'd add that lindros' six best scoring seasons: 119,* 115, 97, 93, 79, 75

messier's: 129, 111, 107, 106, 107, 101


* lockout season. prorated to 82 games, so it assumes that lindros would have stayed mostly healthy through the year (his two games missed in '95 prorated to 4 games missed over a full season).

vadim sharifijanov is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-23-2012, 01:30 PM
  #38
Crosbyfan
Registered User
 
Crosbyfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 7,596
vCash: 500
Voted Messier though peaks are close

Lindros may have peaked physically, but his game never fully matured, so that peak he did have was more impressive than effective (not saying it wasn't effective, but that's what makes me give Messier the nod)

Crosbyfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-23-2012, 01:33 PM
  #39
Dark Shadows
Registered User
 
Dark Shadows's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Canada
Country: Japan
Posts: 7,905
vCash: 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
and furthermore, that lindros only twice played more than 65 games in a season, pre-scott stevens.


i'd add that lindros' six best scoring seasons: 119,* 115, 97, 93, 79, 75

messier's: 129, 111, 107, 106, 107, 101


* lockout season. prorated to 82 games, so it assumes that lindros would have stayed mostly healthy through the year (his two games missed in '95 prorated to 4 games missed over a full season).
Something he never was. I would assume in prorating that he would miss his usual 9-20 games due to his body being incapable of staying healthy with his style of play.

Dark Shadows is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-23-2012, 01:41 PM
  #40
jkrx
Registered User
 
jkrx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,195
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Shadows View Post
Something he never was. I would assume in prorating that he would miss his usual 9-20 games due to his body being incapable of staying healthy with his style of play.
It wasnt just his style of play, it was his non-existant ability to think ahead and/or adapt to situations (which you could call playstyle if you like). It is what seperates him from other physical players like Howe, Messier, Stevens, hell even one-dimensionals like Jay Wells.

jkrx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-23-2012, 02:28 PM
  #41
vadim sharifijanov
Registered User
 
vadim sharifijanov's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 8,839
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crosbyfan View Post
Voted Messier though peaks are close

Lindros may have peaked physically, but his game never fully matured, so that peak he did have was more impressive than effective (not saying it wasn't effective, but that's what makes me give Messier the nod)
an excellent characterisation of lindros and his dominance.

vadim sharifijanov is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-23-2012, 02:37 PM
  #42
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 38,118
vCash: 500
In a random game against random competition, I'd take prime Lindros. In a playoff series, I'd take prime Messier, who proved to be more difficult to stop than Lindros.

Voted Messier.

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-23-2012, 03:57 PM
  #43
Darth Yoda
Registered User
 
Darth Yoda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Grovebranch's Crease
Country: Sweden
Posts: 2,789
vCash: 593
Quote:
Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
and furthermore, that lindros only twice played more than 65 games in a season, pre-scott stevens.


i'd add that lindros' six best scoring seasons: 119,* 115, 97, 93, 79, 75

messier's: 129, 111, 107, 106, 107, 101


* lockout season. prorated to 82 games, so it assumes that lindros would have stayed mostly healthy through the year (his two games missed in '95 prorated to 4 games missed over a full season).
You know perfectly well that per game, Lindros adjusted stats at his best are much better then Messiers was. That's prime if you ask me. When Lindros was on the ice, he was a better offensive player, and better physical presence. In the playoffs, i think Lindros shortened career could have been the problem, he did score good, but only had that one less than stellar final. Or maybe it was the Detroit dynasty just doing its job.


Last edited by Darth Yoda: 12-23-2012 at 04:05 PM.
Darth Yoda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-23-2012, 04:13 PM
  #44
Dark Shadows
Registered User
 
Dark Shadows's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Canada
Country: Japan
Posts: 7,905
vCash: 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
You know perfectly well that per game, Lindros adjusted stats at his best are much better then Messiers was. That's prime if you ask me. When Lindros was on the ice, he was a better offensive player, and better physical presence. In the playoffs, i think Lindros shortened career could have been the problem, he did score good, but only had that one less than stellar final.
I am going to have to jump on the soapbox here.
Lindros played a game at that level at the cost of his body. He played a style harder than his body could tolerate which made it possible for him to be the force he was, and thus is personally responsible for his missing games.

Those missing games should be held against him. This is not a Bobby Orr who was getting his knees targeted by opposing players and missing games.

This is an Eric Lindros who played a crash and bang style and more often than not was responsible for his own injuries. Messier also played a crash and bang style, but moderated the damage his body took instead of going balls out.

Offensively, they are close. Defensively, Messier gets the nod. A regular Pker and powerhouse in head to head matchups(Although Lindros was not bad defensively, Messier was simply better). Physically, Lindros is ahead, but the reason he is ahead is also the reason he missed games and was unable to sustain it over a full season.

Lindros is one of those cases where the guy does deserved to be penalized for games missed.

In any case, I could care less for what adjusted stats say in the case of best year vs best year. Lindros never ever had a year as good as Messier's 1990. As much as I hate that Messier won a hart over a more deserving player, he was a monster that year, beyond anything Lindros ever displayed.

Dark Shadows is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-23-2012, 04:29 PM
  #45
Darth Yoda
Registered User
 
Darth Yoda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Grovebranch's Crease
Country: Sweden
Posts: 2,789
vCash: 593
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Shadows View Post
I am going to have to jump on the soapbox here.
Lindros played a game at that level at the cost of his body. He played a style harder than his body could tolerate which made it possible for him to be the force he was, and thus is personally responsible for his missing games.

Those missing games should be held against him. This is not a Bobby Orr who was getting his knees targeted by opposing players and missing games.

This is an Eric Lindros who played a crash and bang style and more often than not was responsible for his own injuries. Messier also played a crash and bang style, but moderated the damage his body took instead of going balls out.

Offensively, they are close. Defensively, Messier gets the nod. A regular Pker and powerhouse in head to head matchups(Although Lindros was not bad defensively, Messier was simply better). Physically, Lindros is ahead, but the reason he is ahead is also the reason he missed games and was unable to sustain it over a full season.

Lindros is one of those cases where the guy does deserved to be penalized for games missed.

In any case, I could care less for what adjusted stats say in the case of best year vs best year. Lindros never ever had a year as good as Messier's 1990. As much as I hate that Messier won a hart over a more deserving player, he was a monster that year, beyond anything Lindros ever displayed.
Yes he missed games and yes he had a very short career. But his 1995-96 and 1998-99 seasons, and to perhaps a lesser extent 1995 was at such a level i feel that those stats and his physicality put him at a level of dominance that Messier never matched. Thus, in those peak seasons, where he did play many games, he was a more dominant player than Messier ever was. That was the question.

Darth Yoda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-23-2012, 04:40 PM
  #46
vadim sharifijanov
Registered User
 
vadim sharifijanov's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 8,839
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
You know perfectly well that per game, Lindros adjusted stats at his best are much better then Messiers was. That's prime if you ask me. When Lindros was on the ice, he was a better offensive player, and better physical presence. In the playoffs, i think Lindros shortened career could have been the problem, he did score good, but only had that one less than stellar final. Or maybe it was the Detroit dynasty just doing its job.
yes, i do know that. i don't want to get into a semantics or technicalities argument with you, but the way you stated that lindros scored as much as messier in 70 games seemed imprecise enough to be interpreted as flat out unfactual. my point, like jkrx's, was in the interest of precision.

vadim sharifijanov is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-23-2012, 05:29 PM
  #47
Dark Shadows
Registered User
 
Dark Shadows's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Canada
Country: Japan
Posts: 7,905
vCash: 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
Yes he missed games and yes he had a very short career. But his 1995-96 and 1998-99 seasons, and to perhaps a lesser extent 1995 was at such a level i feel that those stats and his physicality put him at a level of dominance that Messier never matched. Thus, in those peak seasons, where he did play many games, he was a more dominant player than Messier ever was. That was the question.
Lindros never achieved a single season where he was at Messier's 1990 level. Not one.

Even if he "could have", Your dominance diminishes when your style to achieve that dominance causes you to miss a 4th of every season on average. You don't help your team if you don't play(And thus, those missed games count against your dominance). We saw what it took for Lindros to play a full uninjured season. A cautious game in 2002-03, resulting in 19 goals and 53 points. He was criticized a bit for playing it too safe and tried to find a happy medium the next season(which resulted in more points), only to get injured for half the season again(Eye and Rib injury from playing his usual style early on, then a nice clean hit from Jason Doig).


Last edited by Dark Shadows: 12-23-2012 at 09:45 PM.
Dark Shadows is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-24-2012, 03:53 PM
  #48
Hardyvan123
tweet@HardyintheWack
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,101
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Shadows View Post
I am going to have to jump on the soapbox here.
Lindros played a game at that level at the cost of his body. He played a style harder than his body could tolerate which made it possible for him to be the force he was, and thus is personally responsible for his missing games.

Those missing games should be held against him. This is not a Bobby Orr who was getting his knees targeted by opposing players and missing games.

This is an Eric Lindros who played a crash and bang style and more often than not was responsible for his own injuries. Messier also played a crash and bang style, but moderated the damage his body took instead of going balls out.

Offensively, they are close. Defensively, Messier gets the nod. A regular Pker and powerhouse in head to head matchups(Although Lindros was not bad defensively, Messier was simply better). Physically, Lindros is ahead, but the reason he is ahead is also the reason he missed games and was unable to sustain it over a full season.

Lindros is one of those cases where the guy does deserved to be penalized for games missed.

In any case, I could care less for what adjusted stats say in the case of best year vs best year. Lindros never ever had a year as good as Messier's 1990. As much as I hate that Messier won a hart over a more deserving player, he was a monster that year, beyond anything Lindros ever displayed.
a lot of what you say is true but also the pace of the game was a bit slower in the 80's, 70's ect... where a guy like Lindros might have had a great chance not being injured as greatly as well.

Also if you are going to take health as an issue one should be consistent with everyone and just deal with what each player did, nothing less but also nothing more.

Hardyvan123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-24-2012, 04:03 PM
  #49
Hardyvan123
tweet@HardyintheWack
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,101
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Shadows View Post
Lindros never achieved a single season where he was at Messier's 1990 level. Not one.
If you mean the combination of his regular season and playoffs yes you are right.

But if you are only looking at regular season and counting stats then you are wrong as Lindros played his entire career in a much lower scoring era and unless we do a more objective look at it aside from counting raw stats then it's an unfair and IMO an incomplete analysis.

Quote:
Even if he "could have", Your dominance diminishes when your style to achieve that dominance causes you to miss a 4th of every season on average. You don't help your team if you don't play(And thus, those missed games count against your dominance). We saw what it took for Lindros to play a full uninjured season. A cautious game in 2002-03, resulting in 19 goals and 53 points. He was criticized a bit for playing it too safe and tried to find a happy medium the next season(which resulted in more points), only to get injured for half the season again(Eye and Rib injury from playing his usual style early on, then a nice clean hit from Jason Doig).
What you say is true but we also saw in 95 as he played almost the whole of that season and tied for the lead in scoring and was the Hart winner and rightly so IMO.

Hardyvan123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-24-2012, 06:49 PM
  #50
ForsbergForever
Red Rocket
 
ForsbergForever's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,660
vCash: 500
What I take from this poll is that Lindros could have learned a lot from Mess and been that much more dominant. I'm sure the Big E could have added years to his longevity and been more productive with Messier showing him the ropes for a few years. Its even more frustrating because it was so close to happening with the decision of the arbitrator to award Lindros to Philly instead of NYR in 1992.

ForsbergForever is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:45 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.