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MLS vs. NHL Going Forward?

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Old
01-01-2013, 07:37 PM
  #376
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Originally Posted by Melrose Munch View Post
The NBA already passed 5 billion in revenue this year. A horse race for number 2 is starting to happen.
Either you need to provide evidence(link) for that or I'm gonna have to declare shenanigans, because everything I've found puts NBA revenue close to 4 billion this year. That includes doing the math on the NBA's own salary cap formula.

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01-01-2013, 11:09 PM
  #377
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Either you need to provide evidence(link) for that or I'm gonna have to declare shenanigans, because everything I've found puts NBA revenue close to 4 billion this year. That includes doing the math on the NBA's own salary cap formula.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/201....ap/index.html

Stern's own mouth.

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01-02-2013, 01:43 AM
  #378
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Wow, that's really bizarre. Either he is including a lot of revenue that is not considered basketball related income, or they were a billion dollars off on their revenue projections when they set the cap for this season.

The NBA's soft cap is set at 44.74% of revenue. The cap for this season was set at 58.044 million.

58.044 million*30 teams/.4474=3.892 billion

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01-02-2013, 02:48 AM
  #379
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My take on this topic. It's really of no consequence to me whether MLS eventually overtakes NHL in revenue or popularity. It will have no impact on the fact that I enjoy watching hockey and don't enjoy watching soccer. I'm not sure why so many people wish to debate this topic. We'll all be able to look back and make a more educated analysis in 25-30 years after another generation of young people have grown up.

However, at the end of the day does it really matter? Watch what you want to watch, attend what you want to attend, spend money on what you want to spend money on. Does it really matter what someone else who you don't know is spending their money on?

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01-02-2013, 04:01 AM
  #380
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Originally Posted by t0mf00lery View Post
My take on this topic. It's really of no consequence to me whether MLS eventually overtakes NHL in revenue or popularity. It will have no impact on the fact that I enjoy watching hockey and don't enjoy watching soccer. I'm not sure why so many people wish to debate this topic. We'll all be able to look back and make a more educated analysis in 25-30 years after another generation of young people have grown up.

However, at the end of the day does it really matter? Watch what you want to watch, attend what you want to attend, spend money on what you want to spend money on. Does it really matter what someone else who you don't know is spending their money on?
Exactly, Gee, I wonder if soccer sat out a half season in Britian would hockey overtake soccer? Of course not. It'd likely help the popularity due to exposure. Sports aren't like wives, you can have more than one in your heart and neither will care.

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01-02-2013, 04:46 AM
  #381
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I can not see the MLS passing the NHL anytime soon.

The NHL would have to fall many times farther than the MLS' hypothetical rise for it to occur. And the only circumstances that would cause that (global economic meltdown, Armaggedon, Mayan Zombie Apocalypse) would likely affect the MLS as well.

I doubt this lockout will affect the NHL in the longterm unless the entire season is scrapped. Looking at labor unrest, the only long term "damaging" strife was baseball's strike.

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01-02-2013, 06:01 AM
  #382
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Originally Posted by scotchex View Post
Well, the finances of MLS are opaque. But the estimates I've heard are that he subsidized MLS to the tune of well over $250M during the lean years.
First of all, not many MLS fans take that figure seriously as it was cooked to the max by the league accountants to be used in the anti-trust/single entity lawsuit by the players. They wanted to show they can't give up the central control and give the players free agency as it would only drive up the cost of business that has already spent so much money with not much being returned.

Secondly, the wording that was used was not lost or subsidized but something like 'spent' (or 'invested', I can't remember which at the moment). So that figure likely includes the initial start-up and franchise fees. They will not have lost some of that money until the league folds.

Third, the figure thrown around was related to the whole league, not just Anschutz. Yes, he did own half the league at one point for a relatively short period but for the majority of the first half he owned no more than 1/4th the league.

And, these losses came before most MLS teams started moving to their own soccer-specific stadiums so they no longer have to throw their money at the pit known as the NFL stadiums. They also came before the MLS commissioner came up with or polished the half a billion dollar gem known as Soccer United Marketing (SUM).

Quote:
In 2012, most of the teams still lost money.
'Teams' probably yes but that would be misleading. Many MLS fans believe the owners (or most of them) are in the black from all their MLS/soccer/stadium/media related ventures. They set up few different corporations (local like 'Stadium Management LLC', 'Merchendise LLC' etc. and central like SUM) to move money around as needed and for other purposes. Unfortunately the 'Team' corporation always ends up with 'losses' (or the biggest amount incurred) while others do very well. A BigSoccer poster named GVPAT77 explained it nicely:

Quote:
While I don't believe that MLS teams are as profitable as some on these boards would argue, I do think that a lot of clever accounting can be done to show a greater operating loss than is really taking place.

You can look at New England. Sure Kraft owns the stadium, but he could "charge rent" which comes out of the pockets of the Revs and moves it into the pockets of the Pats, or whatever corporation runs the stadium.

He's basically just moving his money from his right pocket to his left pocket, but since the Revs and Pats are run as different organizations, the accounting books show one team operating at a loss.

Jasonma can verify this, but I believe Stan Kroenke has set up 4 different corporations that are involved in the Rapids overall revenues. One runs the stadium, one is the team itself, one operates merchandising and the other operates local TV and media deals.

All four file separate tax returns. So while as a whole, they might turn a profit, it is really easy to show a net loss for the Rapids themselves.

Its what rich people do.


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01-02-2013, 12:36 PM
  #383
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that sort of money changing should be no big revelation to anyone who reads this board regularly. If the Panthers are losing money but their owners are raking in craploads from the arena, are the Panthers really losing money?

Quote:
Originally Posted by t0mf00lery View Post
My take on this topic. It's really of no consequence to me whether MLS eventually overtakes NHL in revenue or popularity. It will have no impact on the fact that I enjoy watching hockey and don't enjoy watching soccer. I'm not sure why so many people wish to debate this topic. We'll all be able to look back and make a more educated analysis in 25-30 years after another generation of young people have grown up.

However, at the end of the day does it really matter? Watch what you want to watch, attend what you want to attend, spend money on what you want to spend money on. Does it really matter what someone else who you don't know is spending their money on?
whoa whoa whoa

who told you to bring logic into this? don't you know that any debate involving another sport has to be an emotive slugfest?

seriously though, yes.

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01-02-2013, 12:53 PM
  #384
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I will never care about Soccer. I do wish it major success but as long as the NHL is around, it'll be my number 2 sport (Behind the NFL)

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01-02-2013, 01:39 PM
  #385
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Originally Posted by t0mf00lery View Post
My take on this topic. It's really of no consequence to me whether MLS eventually overtakes NHL in revenue or popularity. It will have no impact on the fact that I enjoy watching hockey and don't enjoy watching soccer. I'm not sure why so many people wish to debate this topic. We'll all be able to look back and make a more educated analysis in 25-30 years after another generation of young people have grown up.

However, at the end of the day does it really matter? Watch what you want to watch, attend what you want to attend, spend money on what you want to spend money on. Does it really matter what someone else who you don't know is spending their money on?
Yes, it does. And I'll tell you why. I find the business of sports interesting. It's why I'm reading and posting in a "The Business of Hockey" forum here.

It's pretty clear that different sports compete with each other for time and attention. You can't understand the NHL's business without looking at the competitive landscape.
People only have so much time, money, and attention to devote to being a sports fan.
Looking back we all can see that, over the last half century, baseball lost many fans to the NFL and NBA. Especially the NFL. Baseball went from being supremely, utterly dominant to #2 in revenue (behind the NFL) and #3 in TV ratings (behind NFL and NBA).

I just find it interesting to study the business of sports. It's a great lens to look at the broader culture -- from politics to economics to demographic changes.

Yeah, 30 years from now it will be much clearer what was going on with the NHL or MLS. Right now it's hard to tell. But that's the fun of trying to see through the fog and trying to figure it out.

Will MLS keep up it's growth in the next 10+ years? How will the changing demographics of Canada effect the NHL's popularity? Will the rising hispanic population in the US boost soccer? Will it boost baseball? Or perhaps boxing? Will the concussion threat slow down the NFL juggernaut? Will any league expand to Europe? Or Mexico?

Will the South and West metros in the US recover from the Great Recession and return to their boom days of the 90s? Will teams be forced to abandon the midwest cities with flat or declining populations?

To be honest, I find the business of sports more interesting than any actual sport these days. It's fascinating to me. The behind the scenes is more interesting to me than most actual games.

I try and get data from census surveys, and TV ratings, and team revenues to see these larger trends. And I do this just cause ... it's fun. It's interesting. It's how I choose to follow sports.

So .. does it matter? To me, yeah, it does. At least as much as any hobby "matters". No sport really "matters" in the grand scheme. We watch cause it's fun and interesting.

I don't do any fantasy sports. Doesn't interest me. But I don't feel a need to complain about those who do. Or say they should't waste their time on something that doesn't "matter". I assume they do it cause ... it's fun and interesting to them. It's their hobby.

It's kinda weird to see an argument on "The Business of Hockey" forum that we shouldn't care about ... the business of hockey. I assume this forum attracts a self-selected group of people who are interested in that. There are forums where people analyze the business and finances of TV shows and movies. And they do it for ... fun. It's interesting to them.

And the funny thing is, those forums have the same arguments. Some people are compiling the data and arguing over trends and changing demographics ... and then someone tells them they shouldn't care about ratings or box office #s and just enjoy what they enjoy. But what they enjoy is analyzing the business side of the entertainment industry. They are already doing what they enjoy -- that's why they are doing it.

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01-02-2013, 01:45 PM
  #386
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Originally Posted by scotchex View Post
Yes, it does. And I'll tell you why. I find the business of sports interesting. It's why I'm reading and posting in a "The Business of Hockey" forum here.

It's pretty clear that different sports compete with each other for time and attention. You can't understand the NHL's business without looking at the competitive landscape.
People only have so much time, money, and attention to devote to being a sports fan.
Looking back we all can see that, over the last half century, baseball lost many fans to the NFL and NBA. Especially the NFL. Baseball went from being supremely, utterly dominant to #2 in revenue (behind the NFL) and #3 in TV ratings (behind NFL and NBA).

I just find it interesting to study the business of sports. It's a great lens to look at the broader culture -- from politics to economics to demographic changes.

Yeah, 30 years from now it will be much clearer what was going on with the NHL or MLS. Right now it's hard to tell. But that's the fun of trying to see through the fog and trying to figure it out.

Will MLS keep up it's growth in the next 10+ years? How will the changing demographics of Canada effect the NHL's popularity? Will the rising hispanic population in the US boost soccer? Will it boost baseball? Or perhaps boxing? Will the concussion threat slow down the NFL juggernaut? Will any league expand to Europe? Or Mexico?

Will the South and West metros in the US recover from the Great Recession and return to their boom days of the 90s? Will teams be forced to abandon the midwest cities with flat or declining populations?

To be honest, I find the business of sports more interesting than any actual sport these days. It's fascinating to me. The behind the scenes is more interesting to me than most actual games.

I try and get data from census surveys, and TV ratings, and team revenues to see these larger trends. And I do this just cause ... it's fun. It's interesting. It's how I choose to follow sports.

So .. does it matter? To me, yeah, it does. At least as much as any hobby "matters". No sport really "matters" in the grand scheme. We watch cause it's fun and interesting.

I don't do any fantasy sports. Doesn't interest me. But I don't feel a need to complain about those who do. Or say they should't waste their time on something that doesn't "matter". I assume they do it cause ... it's fun and interesting to them. It's their hobby.

It's kinda weird to see an argument on "The Business of Hockey" forum that we shouldn't care about ... the business of hockey. I assume this forum attracts a self-selected group of people who are interested in that. There are forums where people analyze the business and finances of TV shows and movies. And they do it for ... fun. It's interesting to them.

And the funny thing is, those forums have the same arguments. Some people are compiling the data and arguing over trends and changing demographics ... and then someone tells them they shouldn't care about ratings or box office #s and just enjoy what they enjoy. But what they enjoy is analyzing the business side of the entertainment industry. They are already doing what they enjoy -- that's why they are doing it.

I think the point the guy was making is, As long as the NHL is around for the fan to enjoy, why does it matter if the MLS overtakes them? Unless the NHL completely went off TV, it doesn't really effect the individual NHL fan. This lockout effects every fan.

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01-02-2013, 02:00 PM
  #387
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Originally Posted by Lazyking View Post
I think the point the guy was making is, As long as the NHL is around for the fan to enjoy, why does it matter if the MLS overtakes them? Unless the NHL completely went off TV, it doesn't really effect the individual NHL fan. This lockout effects every fan.
I don't think that the average fan would care, as you said, but it's more aggravating how people continuously put down the popularity of the sport within even its fan circles by likening it to the MLS which, by every metric, is still far behind the NHL.

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01-02-2013, 02:21 PM
  #388
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Originally Posted by No Fun Shogun View Post
I don't think that the average fan would care, as you said, but it's more aggravating how people continuously put down the popularity of the sport within even its fan circles by likening it to the MLS which, by every metric, is still far behind the NHL.
Why do you care about the popularity? So what if it is or is not. This is ridiculous. You should be mad at the league not other fans.

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01-02-2013, 04:26 PM
  #389
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Originally Posted by No Fun Shogun View Post
I don't think that the average fan would care, as you said, but it's more aggravating how people continuously put down the popularity of the sport within even its fan circles by likening it to the MLS which, by every metric, is still far behind the NHL.
for me, I wish the sport was more popular in that if it was more popular, more kids would likely take up the sport, = better chance at great players..

But as a fan, all I want to see is good hockey and I'd like for the NHL to have a great TV deal and exposure so that fans like me have access to it.

The whole "this sport is more popular then this sport." Doesn't really effect any of that. Especially when Soccer's prime months aren't even winter like hockey.

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01-02-2013, 04:31 PM
  #390
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Originally Posted by Lazyking View Post
for me, I wish the sport was more popular in that if it was more popular, more kids would likely take up the sport, = better chance at great players..

But as a fan, all I want to see is good hockey and I'd like for the NHL to have a great TV deal and exposure so that fans like me have access to it.

The whole "this sport is more popular then this sport." Doesn't really effect any of that. Especially when Soccer's prime months aren't even winter like hockey.
March to June encompasses the last of the NHL season plus all the Playoffs. September, October, November takes care of NHL preseason and start of the nhl season but yeah the MLS is also playing in July and August, no NHL there.

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01-02-2013, 05:11 PM
  #391
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neither sport is really that popular and partisans on both sides dramatically overstate how popular their chosen sport is.

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01-02-2013, 05:15 PM
  #392
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neither sport is really that popular and partisans on both sides dramatically overstate how popular their chosen sport is.
Depends on where you live.

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01-02-2013, 05:23 PM
  #393
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well, in Canada sure

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01-02-2013, 05:32 PM
  #394
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on a global scale, I'd say soccer, Hockey and MMA are probably vastly more popular then the NFL

But in the states, it's no contest.

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01-02-2013, 05:32 PM
  #395
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well, in Canada sure
Hockey is huge in MA and is very big in New England. Is it not the same in Michigan?

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01-02-2013, 05:46 PM
  #396
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Feels to me like MLS has leveled off, although I am in Canada. Up here it was a big deal when Toronto FC started, but it really is a regional thing. They try to make it national, but it is nothing like the NHL or even CFL up here. Not many people in Calgary, Saskatoon or Winnipeg are going to care about Vancouver vs Chivas USA on a Thursday night. Of course the Whitecaps are big in the Lower Mainland. Their growth is coming from expansion. That is good news for them because in the past they'd expand and teams would sink in a few years. The fact that they have stadiums built for them and their sport will give stability that has never existed for soccer in North America. The MLS still has a good number of their players living not far above the poverty line to play pro soccer. As long as that is the case, the product won't compete with the "Big 4," NASCAR and even NCAA. The NHL revenue has grown at a decent rate with a static number of franchises, although much of that growth is coming from about 1/3 of the teams.

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01-02-2013, 06:19 PM
  #397
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scotchex View Post
Yes, it does. And I'll tell you why. I find the business of sports interesting. It's why I'm reading and posting in a "The Business of Hockey" forum here.

It's pretty clear that different sports compete with each other for time and attention. You can't understand the NHL's business without looking at the competitive landscape.
People only have so much time, money, and attention to devote to being a sports fan.
Looking back we all can see that, over the last half century, baseball lost many fans to the NFL and NBA. Especially the NFL. Baseball went from being supremely, utterly dominant to #2 in revenue (behind the NFL) and #3 in TV ratings (behind NFL and NBA).

I just find it interesting to study the business of sports. It's a great lens to look at the broader culture -- from politics to economics to demographic changes.

Yeah, 30 years from now it will be much clearer what was going on with the NHL or MLS. Right now it's hard to tell. But that's the fun of trying to see through the fog and trying to figure it out.

Will MLS keep up it's growth in the next 10+ years? How will the changing demographics of Canada effect the NHL's popularity? Will the rising hispanic population in the US boost soccer? Will it boost baseball? Or perhaps boxing? Will the concussion threat slow down the NFL juggernaut? Will any league expand to Europe? Or Mexico?

Will the South and West metros in the US recover from the Great Recession and return to their boom days of the 90s? Will teams be forced to abandon the midwest cities with flat or declining populations?

To be honest, I find the business of sports more interesting than any actual sport these days. It's fascinating to me. The behind the scenes is more interesting to me than most actual games.

I try and get data from census surveys, and TV ratings, and team revenues to see these larger trends. And I do this just cause ... it's fun. It's interesting. It's how I choose to follow sports.

So .. does it matter? To me, yeah, it does. At least as much as any hobby "matters". No sport really "matters" in the grand scheme. We watch cause it's fun and interesting.

I don't do any fantasy sports. Doesn't interest me. But I don't feel a need to complain about those who do. Or say they should't waste their time on something that doesn't "matter". I assume they do it cause ... it's fun and interesting to them. It's their hobby.

It's kinda weird to see an argument on "The Business of Hockey" forum that we shouldn't care about ... the business of hockey. I assume this forum attracts a self-selected group of people who are interested in that. There are forums where people analyze the business and finances of TV shows and movies. And they do it for ... fun. It's interesting to them.

And the funny thing is, those forums have the same arguments. Some people are compiling the data and arguing over trends and changing demographics ... and then someone tells them they shouldn't care about ratings or box office #s and just enjoy what they enjoy. But what they enjoy is analyzing the business side of the entertainment industry. They are already doing what they enjoy -- that's why they are doing it.
I think perhaps you missed my point a little. I obviously enjoy the business side of the sport as well, or I wouldn't even be reading the Business of Hockey board.

My point was that this topic is mostly a speculative venture at best no matter your opinion on the matter. Does it really matter a whole lot in the grand scheme of things if MLS revenue/popularity passes the NHL's? To me it doesn't. People will still find ways to keep themselved entertained and it really will be of no consequence.

Secondly, it's an unknowable answer as none of us have a crystal ball lying around to accurately predict how the future will unfold.

I understand what you are saying when you say it "matters" to you, but really what I was getting at is that it's impossible to "prove" one's point regarding this topic, so it just falls into who can speculate louder and does that really matter?

No ones knows how it will play out. People will choose their form of entertainment.

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01-02-2013, 09:00 PM
  #398
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Originally Posted by du5566 View Post
Hockey is huge in MA and is very big in New England. Is it not the same in Michigan?
I'll say that in my experience with people from New England, there are plenty of people who think in terms of it being the Big 3 sports and have hockey as an afterthought if at all. And that's the case with a lot of people here as well, particularly people in my age group. Hockey is popular here, but it's not more popular than football or baseball and is probably about even with basketball. And even that level of popularity is an anomaly in the US.

If you don't think that people on this site vastly overstate the popularity of hockey, in the same way people on BigSoccer overstate the popularity of MLS, well I don't know what to tell you

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01-03-2013, 12:00 AM
  #399
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Why do you care about the popularity? So what if it is or is not. This is ridiculous. You should be mad at the league not other fans.
It's human nature to not like it when something you like is constantly **** on by others. People constantly prognosticating the doom of the NHL or the notion that a veritable minnow like the MLS could surpass easily could be aggravating to lots of people, and I'd totally understand that.

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01-03-2013, 09:04 AM
  #400
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Originally Posted by No Fun Shogun View Post
It's human nature to not like it when something you like is constantly **** on by others. People constantly prognosticating the doom of the NHL or the notion that a veritable minnow like the MLS could surpass easily could be aggravating to lots of people, and I'd totally understand that.
[Mod]... Hockey need to deal with this, especially when the people involved have shown they don't care either way.


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