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Sam Gagner and Ryan Whitney

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Old
01-04-2013, 02:49 PM
  #226
bleedblue1223
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An offensive team is going to need more than 50 points from their 2nd line center to be successful in the playoffs, especially when you consider some of the great defensive teams in the West. Gagner will either have to up his production to at least 60 points, or Edmonton will need to upgrade.

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01-04-2013, 03:03 PM
  #227
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Originally Posted by bleedblue1223 View Post
An offensive team is going to need more than 50 points from their 2nd line center to be successful in the playoffs, especially when you consider some of the great defensive teams in the West. Gagner will either have to up his production to at least 60 points, or Edmonton will need to upgrade.
how many points do you expect the oilers to score? if the 2nd line centre is getting 60 is RNH getting 80+? Unrealistic expectations all around here. I said it before, Gagner isn't the guy who is going to drive the offense on a line but he's talented enough to be a good supporting player for talented wingers. That's why he could centre Hall and Eberle and the line could have monster games. With the wingers the Oilers have in the top 6 he's not a bad option to let talent still play with other talent. Gotta remember that there were plenty of times last year when he played 3rd line wing just because Horcoff got time in the top 6 still. Or time with an underperforming Hemsky.

Never mind that with as bad as the Oilers have been the last little while why is it the early 20s player getting so much of the blame? The oilers vets have been terrible and it's forced young players like Gagner to play a bigger role that he really should be. He may not be the ideal option right now but a lot of people are going to look back and wonder why they doubted the player. He might not last with the Oilers but he's going to be in the league for a long time and he'll be productive. Smart kid with good puck skills and a good work ethic, he will always find work somewhere.

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01-04-2013, 03:14 PM
  #228
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Originally Posted by bleedblue1223 View Post
An offensive team is going to need more than 50 points from their 2nd line center to be successful in the playoffs, especially when you consider some of the great defensive teams in the West. Gagner will either have to up his production to at least 60 points, or Edmonton will need to upgrade.
So 10 points from a single player over the course of an entire season is what's going to decide if a team is successful or not in the playoffs?

He always ends up very close to 50 points and has had some unfortunate injury luck in the past few years (such as having his tendon sliced while sitting on the bench and a teammate stepped over the boards, slicing his hand).

I don't think it's too out of question that Gagner can put up a few more points this year playing with Yakupov and Hemsky. Last year he started off on the third line playing on Belangers wing (offensive black hole) and still managed to pull his season out from the flames and revive it a bit. Before that he was playing with Paajarvi and Omark. Give him some real linemates and he'll produce. Like I said earlier Gagner cannot be THE guy on his line, he's complimentary.

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Originally Posted by Oates2Neely View Post
He reminds me of Cogliano, with less speed ofcourse.
Yeah, and TWICE AS MUCH OFFENSE.

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01-04-2013, 03:57 PM
  #229
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Originally Posted by Oates2Neely View Post
Proven wrong where?

If anything the ONLY thing proven here is that Sam Gagners +/- has improved in 5 years. EVERYTHING else has remained the same. Sam Gagner is literally the SAME player today that he was 5years ago. Fact.
Having watched 90%+ of Oilers games since Gagner came into the league, I can tell you that Gagner is not the same player he was when he first came into the league. He's much more capable of handling tougher minutes.

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01-04-2013, 04:34 PM
  #230
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Originally Posted by missinthejets View Post
how many points do you expect the oilers to score? if the 2nd line centre is getting 60 is RNH getting 80+? Unrealistic expectations all around here. I said it before, Gagner isn't the guy who is going to drive the offense on a line but he's talented enough to be a good supporting player for talented wingers. That's why he could centre Hall and Eberle and the line could have monster games. With the wingers the Oilers have in the top 6 he's not a bad option to let talent still play with other talent. Gotta remember that there were plenty of times last year when he played 3rd line wing just because Horcoff got time in the top 6 still. Or time with an underperforming Hemsky.

Never mind that with as bad as the Oilers have been the last little while why is it the early 20s player getting so much of the blame? The oilers vets have been terrible and it's forced young players like Gagner to play a bigger role that he really should be. He may not be the ideal option right now but a lot of people are going to look back and wonder why they doubted the player. He might not last with the Oilers but he's going to be in the league for a long time and he'll be productive. Smart kid with good puck skills and a good work ethic, he will always find work somewhere.
I'm not blaming him, I'm just talking down the road. Edmonton has a ton of potential to be a Cup contender in a few years. With the way they are set up, they will do it by outscoring their opponents. With some of the defensive teams they will be going against, like say the Blues, who have Backes, who has proven he can shutdown top offensive talents, Edmonton will need other lines, besides RNH's to be successful. It's not so much the extra 10 points, it's more about the consistency for his line to produce offensively, that is if he gets the 2nd line minutes.

Considering the likelihood of the young 4 to make big bucks, it would be best for Edmonton for them to get a center that plays more of a 2-way game that can match Gagner's current production to be their 2nd line center of the future.

In today's NHL, it is becoming more of a top 9 instead of a top 6, so if Edmonton can get a defensive center capable of 40 points, then Gagner will be just fine for them IMO.

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01-04-2013, 04:47 PM
  #231
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Originally Posted by SephF View Post
How many points do you think he should be putting up? Maybe it's just me but 50 points from a second line center is sufficient offense.
It would easily be enough if his all around game was better. The thing is that there are 35-40 point point players who bring a much better all around game than Gagner, some of them are actually known for their defense yet they only score 5-10 points less than Gagner. There are a lot of players who score exactly the same as Gagner and are much better all around players. Take a guy like Rich Peverley, he would make a better 2nd line center than Gagner yet he is a 3rd line wing for the Bruins.

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01-04-2013, 04:57 PM
  #232
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Originally Posted by SephF View Post
So 10 points from a single player over the course of an entire season is what's going to decide if a team is successful or not in the playoffs?

He always ends up very close to 50 points and has had some unfortunate injury luck in the past few years (such as having his tendon sliced while sitting on the bench and a teammate stepped over the boards, slicing his hand).

I don't think it's too out of question that Gagner can put up a few more points this year playing with Yakupov and Hemsky. Last year he started off on the third line playing on Belangers wing (offensive black hole) and still managed to pull his season out from the flames and revive it a bit. Before that he was playing with Paajarvi and Omark. Give him some real linemates and he'll produce. Like I said earlier Gagner cannot be THE guy on his line, he's complimentary.



Yeah, and TWICE AS MUCH OFFENSE.
"Twice as much"?? Better look at Cogliano's stats again.

45
38
28
35
26

And that's not skating top-6 minutes as Gagner has. They are extremely close talent-wise. Close comparison.

Gagner is in a top-6 role and being depended on in an offensive role. He has not lived up to the hype in 5 seasons. As a matter of fact, he has failed to match his rookie year career high of 49 points. IF Gagner was a checking center putting up 45 points a season while playing on PK and playing a shutdown role, he'd be extremely valuable. However he is just mediocre defensively.

The Oilers will eventually need to replace him with a more offensively talented #2 center, or a Dave Bolland type shutdown center to play between Yakupov and Hemsky.

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01-04-2013, 05:15 PM
  #233
missinthejets
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Originally Posted by Oates2Neely View Post
They are extremely close talent-wise. Close comparison.

except for the fact that Gagner is a much smarter player than Cogliano, has much better hands and puck skills and is much more capable of adapting his game.... You want to talk about guys who haven't really progressed at all that's Cogliano. Gagner has adapted and become a much better overall player even if his point totals haven't risen (though is on pace totals have climbed, he's just had some injury troubles) I really hope you're just a troll and don't actually believe this stuff though. I'd rather feed a troll than know there's someone THAT ignorant in the world.

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Old
01-04-2013, 05:16 PM
  #234
Lion
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oates2Neely View Post
"Twice as much"?? Better look at Cogliano's stats again.

45
38
28
35
26

And that's not skating top-6 minutes as Gagner has. They are extremely close talent-wise. Close comparison.

Gagner is in a top-6 role and being depended on in an offensive role. He has not lived up to the hype in 5 seasons. As a matter of fact, he has failed to match his rookie year career high of 49 points. IF Gagner was a checking center putting up 45 points a season while playing on PK and playing a shutdown role, he'd be extremely valuable. However he is just mediocre defensively.

The Oilers will eventually need to replace him with a more offensively talented #2 center, or a Dave Bolland type shutdown center to play between Yakupov and Hemsky.
Cogliano has hands of stone, Gagner actually has hands. The only thing Cogs has is hustle and speed.

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Old
01-04-2013, 09:03 PM
  #235
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oates2Neely View Post
"Twice as much"?? Better look at Cogliano's stats again.

45
38
28
35
26

And that's not skating top-6 minutes as Gagner has. They are extremely close talent-wise. Close comparison.

Gagner is in a top-6 role and being depended on in an offensive role. He has not lived up to the hype in 5 seasons. As a matter of fact, he has failed to match his rookie year career high of 49 points. IF Gagner was a checking center putting up 45 points a season while playing on PK and playing a shutdown role, he'd be extremely valuable. However he is just mediocre defensively.

The Oilers will eventually need to replace him with a more offensively talented #2 center, or a Dave Bolland type shutdown center to play between Yakupov and Hemsky.
I think this is the only thread that I've seen you use stats this much in. We all know that stats only show part of the story. You can't see the changes in Gagner's game through stats. You also can't see that he is a much, much better player than Andrew Cogliano.

Also, he has been on pace to improve on his rookie point total every season, injuries happen and do make a difference. He's a better player now, and its not even close.

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