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Sam Gagner and Ryan Whitney

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Old
01-01-2013, 02:09 PM
  #126
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Gagner's getting a bad wrap! I'd take him on the Flames. Bouwmeester for Gagner and Whitney? Ryan Whitney has little value at this point, due to injuries. I love to see what Gagner could do between Iggy and tanguay. Let Cammi center Baertschi and Hudler

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01-01-2013, 02:12 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by Flames rebuilder View Post
Gagner's getting a bad wrap! I'd take him on the Flames. Bouwmeester for Gagner and Whitney? Ryan Whitney has little value at this point, due to injuries. I love to see what Gagner could do between Iggy and tanguay. Let Cammi center Baertschi and Hudler
What bad rap?

He's a small, skilled , defensively and physically weak center, who can be penciled in for 45-47 pts.

What part of that description is wrong?

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01-01-2013, 03:00 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by CREW99AW View Post
What bad rap?

He's a small, skilled , defensively and physically weak center, who can be penciled in for 45-47 pts.

What part of that description is wrong?
He's average sized, skilled, not nearly as phyiscally weak as HF seems to think, and below average defensively, but again, not the liability that many seem to think he is.

For the record, his faceoff ability isn't as abismal as it was even two years ago, he had I believe 48% last year, which is close to average.

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01-01-2013, 03:01 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by CREW99AW View Post
What bad rap?

He's a small, skilled , defensively and physically weak center, who can be penciled in for 45-47 pts.

What part of that description is wrong?
He's averaged 44 points a season, on a horrible team since he was 18. He's only 23, it would be redicuous to say he's fully developed or to pencil him in as only being capable of 45-47 points. I just see him having more potential yet to come.

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01-01-2013, 03:02 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by Flames rebuilder View Post
Gagner's getting a bad wrap! I'd take him on the Flames. Bouwmeester for Gagner and Whitney? Ryan Whitney has little value at this point, due to injuries. I love to see what Gagner could do between Iggy and tanguay. Let Cammi center Baertschi and Hudler
Don't want Bouwmeester, but thanks.

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01-01-2013, 03:07 PM
  #131
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50 to 60 points?? Based on what exactly? You just pluck numbers from thin air. Gagner has been in the league 5years,, he hasn't progressed as expected. Now magically, he going to jump up 20 points because Hemsky is suddenly going to stay healthy,, and a rookie Yakupov will be skating on his LW?

Well if that's the case, I would "expect" Brad Marchand to score 40 goals this year.he hasn't peaked yet.
He's been a 40 + point center every year. I'm not sure how its so unrealistic that one would expect Gagner to put up 10 - 20 more points playing with superior linemates with easier icetime. Unless you don't think Hemsky and Yakupov are better players with more offensive potential than other wonders that Gagner has played with in the past, you know the Robert Nillson`s, Andrew Cogliano`s, Gilbert Brule`s, and Linus Omark's of the world.

For what its worth, Hemsky was healthy for most of last year, it was just lingering side effects from his surgery that caused him to miss games at the beginning of the year. Once he was fully recovered, he began putting up numbers again and playing at a near ppg pace.

And yes, a rookie Yakupov, who has 50+ goal potential. Maybe not in his rookie year, but he's going to be a force as a rookie.

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01-01-2013, 03:08 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by Oates2Neely View Post
His situation will not have had changed. He will once again be the Oilers #2 center,, he will once again see PP time. Nothing new here.
With vastly superior linemates and better defensemen moving the puck from the back end.

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01-01-2013, 03:11 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by CREW99AW View Post
Opposing fans look at Josh Bailey's 30 pts a yr and don't see that he's very solid defensively and on the pk.


Bailey moved up from the 3rd line, playing the last month or so on the 2nd line with Frans Nielsen and Kyle Okposo. They formed a very dangerous line for those weeks, with Bailey scoring 17 pts in 19 games. He had only 32 for the total season.

Does that mean fans should ignore Bailey's actual final stats and think 'oh, if he'd had all season on a line with Frans Nielsen and Kyle Okposo, he'd have had 65 pts?
19 games is a bit different than what Gagner did last year, it was half the season. Even then, you probably have reason to hope that Bailey is finally putting it together.

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01-01-2013, 03:12 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by CREW99AW View Post
Opposing fans look at Josh Bailey's 30 pts a yr and don't see that he's very solid defensively and on the pk.


Bailey moved up from the 3rd line, playing the last month or so on the 2nd line with Frans Nielsen and Kyle Okposo. They formed a very dangerous line for those weeks, with Bailey scoring 17 pts in 19 games. He had only 32 for the total season.

Does that mean fans should ignore Bailey's actual final stats and think 'oh, if he'd had all season on a line with Frans Nielsen and Kyle Okposo, he'd have had 65 pts?
Of course not, but it'd also be ridiculous to suggest Bailey has finished developing. Him and Gags are a lot alike in that they're the same age, and haven't quite lived up to the draft hype, but still have room to grow.

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01-01-2013, 03:20 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
He's average sized, skilled, not nearly as phyiscally weak as HF seems to think, and below average defensively, but again, not the liability that many seem to think he is.

For the record, his faceoff ability isn't as abismal as it was even two years ago, he had I believe 48% last year, which is close to average.
He's under 6' and weighs about 190 lbs. He hasn't established himself as a 1st line center and most teams want more then 45 or so pts from their 2nd line center.

You agree he's below average defensively and only in the last 1-2 yrs has improved his bad faceoff numbers.We'll simply disagree over whether he's weak physically.

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01-01-2013, 03:29 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by The Nuge View Post
Of course not, but it'd also be ridiculous to suggest Bailey has finished developing. Him and Gags are a lot alike in that they're the same age, and haven't quite lived up to the draft hype, but still have room to grow.


I agree there is still room and time, for both to grow.

However, neither would imo, bring back a return that their fans would be happy with if they were dealt.

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01-01-2013, 03:30 PM
  #137
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josh bailey and lubo visnovsky

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01-01-2013, 03:36 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by CREW99AW View Post
What bad rap?

He's a small, skilled , defensively and physically weak center, who can be penciled in for 45-47 pts.

What part of that description is wrong?
Nothing really, except he should be able to produce more offense then that with a full season and real linemates.

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01-01-2013, 03:40 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by CREW99AW View Post
I agree there is still room and time, for both to grow.

However, neither would imo, bring back a return that their fans would be happy with if they were dealt.
I think you're probably right there but it depends on the situation. I could see something centered around Gagner and Leddy, but that still leaves a huge hole down the middle.

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01-01-2013, 03:41 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by CREW99AW View Post
He's under 6' and weighs about 190 lbs. He hasn't established himself as a 1st line center and most teams want more then 45 or so pts from their 2nd line center.

You agree he's below average defensively and only in the last 1-2 yrs has improved his bad faceoff numbers.We'll simply disagree over whether he's weak physically.
190 lbs is fairly average for scoring forwards.

What teams want more than 45 points from a 2nd line center? How many points should a 2nd line center have? Because Gagner was 38th among centers in points last season.

For the record, there are 30 NHL teams and only 35 centers to hit 50 points, so the HF notion that a 2nd line center needs to be a 50 - 60 point center is just wrong. It seems like a theory you have subscribed to.

I've said it a number of times, it would be nice to have a 2nd line center who is bigger and more physical, simply because our other top six center is the more skilled Ryan Nugent-Hopkins. But until we find that larger player, there is nothing wrong with letting Sam Gagner continue developing.

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01-01-2013, 03:42 PM
  #141
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Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
With vastly superior linemates and better defensemen moving the puck from the back end.
Who are these "better defensemen"? And "vastly superior" line mates. He's played with Hemsky already,, so I'm assuming you're suggesting that Yakupov alone will allow Gagner to break out of his standard 45point that he's averaged for 5 seasons now??

Bozak has centered Phil Kessel, it didn't make him magically score ppg

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01-01-2013, 03:46 PM
  #142
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This thread is such a crock. Sam Gagner is a well below average #2 center. He's had 5 years in the league and has shown no progression. His value is a 3rd round pick. End of story

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01-01-2013, 03:52 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by startainfection View Post
josh bailey and lubo visnovsky

According to several press reports from the time of Erhoff's rejection, until making the Vis trade, Snow was beating the bushes for a quality, top 4 d-man.

That's from June 2011 until June 2012.

Now, with the lockout looking like it could be ending and Wang talking about making this season's playoffs, I don't think there is any chance Snow trades one of his top 4 d-men for Sam Gagner and soon to be ufa Whitney.

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01-01-2013, 03:53 PM
  #144
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Originally Posted by Oates2Neely View Post
Who are these "better defensemen"? And "vastly superior" line mates. He's played with Hemsky already,, so I'm assuming you're suggesting that Yakupov alone will allow Gagner to break out of his standard 45point that he's averaged for 5 seasons now??

Bozak has centered Phil Kessel, it didn't make him magically score ppg


Healthy Ryan Whitney (or mostly) >>> Ryan Whitney freshly coming off multiple foot/ankle surgeries

Ladislav Smid = Ladislav Smid

Jeff Petry = Jeff Petry (maybe better, he seemed to improve a lot as the season went on

Justin Schutlz >> Tom Gilbert

Nick Schultz >>>>> Correy Potter

Theo Peckham = Theo Peckham

If you can't see how the Oilers defense core is superior to last years, you haven't been paying attention.

Also, I've explained to you dozens of times how Hemsky's season went last year, so I won't do it again, but the Hemsky he will be playing with this year is very different from the rehabbing, scared to get injured Hemsky of last year. And Yakupov will be a huge upgrade over the revolving door of third/fourth line NHL'ers and career minor leaguers that Gagner has played with aside from Hemsky and some time with Eberle and Hall last year when Nuge was hurt.

Bozak isn't nearly as skilled as Gagner either, and he's spent most of his career playing with Kessel, so who's to say what his point output hasn't already been inflated. Stop trying, you don't want Gagner on your team and that's fine, but you're trying to make him sound like a bad player, and you should probably watch some more Oilers hockey objectively before trying to make those claims.

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01-01-2013, 03:54 PM
  #145
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Originally Posted by CREW99AW View Post
According to several press reports from the time of Erhoff's rejection, until making the Vis trade, Snow was beating the bushes for a quality, top 4 d-man.

That's from June 2011 until June 2012.

Now, with the lockout looking like it could be ending and Wang talking about making this season's playoffs, I don't think there is any chance Snow trades one of his top 4 d-men for Sam Gagner and soon to be ufa Whitney.
lubo is a soon to be ufa too or else i wouldn't have said it

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01-01-2013, 03:56 PM
  #146
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Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
190 lbs is fairly average for scoring forwards.

What teams want more than 45 points from a 2nd line center? How many points should a 2nd line center have? Because Gagner was 38th among centers in points last season.

For the record, there are 30 NHL teams and only 35 centers to hit 50 points, so the HF notion that a 2nd line center needs to be a 50 - 60 point center is just wrong. It seems like a theory you have subscribed to.

I've said it a number of times, it would be nice to have a 2nd line center who is bigger and more physical, simply because our other top six center is the more skilled Ryan Nugent-Hopkins. But until we find that larger player, there is nothing wrong with letting Sam Gagner continue developing.
Frans Nielsen scores about the same number of pts as Gagner, while playing stronger defensively. Snow said as recently as the end of last season, that he loves Frans game, but wants more scoring from that 2nd line spot.

Imo that's why Snow's used 2 of his last 3 three 1st rounders, on skilled centers with top 6 potential: Strome and B. Nelson.

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01-01-2013, 04:03 PM
  #147
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Originally Posted by Oates2Neely View Post
This thread is such a crock. Sam Gagner is a well below average #2 center. He's had 5 years in the league and has shown no progression. His value is a 3rd round pick. End of story
Lol, no progression? Sure thing bud. I don't think you've even watched Gagner since his rookie year. His faceoff win percentage has increased by over 10% since he entered the NHL. He can work the boards now, where he was very much a floater/dangler only his first 3 years in the league. He plays the body more now than he did in his first 3 years. You could fart in his direction and get him off the puck in his first few years. He isn't nearly as weak on his feet or on the puck as he was then. If you watch him play, you'll see that he is much more committed to team play now. His defensive play still isn't good, but is showed tremendous strides last season. He was even a plus player last year, despite being on a minus team still. But, you're right, there has been no progression with Sam Gagner at all.

Sorry bud, but you can't just make things up and not back them up. Sam Gagner's value (if he were to be shopped) would be a good 2/3 defenseman, or the equivalent of a mid 1st round pick. Or he won't be moved, simple as that, because despite your rambling, he has become a better player.

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01-01-2013, 04:04 PM
  #148
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lubo is a soon to be ufa too or else i wouldn't have said it


Gagner's a better scorer then Bailey, but I don't want either in the NYI top 6, so that's not saying much.

I think the Isles are hoping Vis bounces back closer to his 60+ pt form, adds scoring to their blueline. I don't see Vis as a longterm answer, but I think the Isles are more likely to get that blueline scoring from Vis, then Whitney.

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01-01-2013, 04:04 PM
  #149
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Originally Posted by CREW99AW View Post
Frans Nielsen scores about the same number of pts as Gagner, while playing stronger defensively. Snow said as recently as the end of last season, that he loves Frans game, but wants more scoring from that 2nd line spot.

Imo that's why Snow's used 2 of his last 3 three 1st rounders, on skilled centers with top 6 potential: Strome and B. Nelson.
Great, so Garth Snow wants two first line centers then, like Pittsburgh has. Because a 2nd line center scores 40 - 50 points.

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01-01-2013, 04:10 PM
  #150
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Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
Great, so Garth Snow wants two first line centers then, like Pittsburgh has. Because a 2nd line center scores 40 - 50 points.


Many NYI fans insists Frans 45 pts, aren't second line center numbers. Based on Snow's Newsday comments, that came days after the season ended, Snow agrees with them.

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