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J.Schultz-Mcdonagh-P.K.Subban-Fowler-Faulk

View Poll Results: You're named GM, select one defenceman.
Ryan Mcdonagh 62 36.69%
P.K. Subban 69 40.83%
Justin Schultz 20 11.83%
Cam Fowler 15 8.88%
Justin Faulk 3 1.78%
Voters: 169. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
12-28-2012, 10:41 AM
  #51
doubledown99
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Originally Posted by CupofOil View Post
Schultz is obviously looking great but we don't need a bunch of polls comparing him to good, established NHL players fishing for compliments. One was plenty enough.
Couldn't agree more. Why do some fans need praise from others regarding their team? Is it because of a lack of self esteem?

In either case I think this is between McD and Subban. I think Subban will be better in the long term so going with him

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12-28-2012, 11:11 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
McDonagh is more of a top shutdown Dman than a franchise one as his offense is easily the worst in this grouping of 5 and by quite a bit too.
McDonagh is a great two-way defenseman. His offense isn't quite as good as Subban's but the gap is no bigger than the defensive gap between the two.

The day people realize that McDonagh is not Marc Staal, that he's not a pure shutdown defender that doesn't know where enemy territory is or what to do when he gets there, is the day people begin to recognize McDonagh as a franchise player.

Yes he can absolutely shut you down and can make his assignment disappear. He's one of the best young players in the game on the defensive side. But there is offense to his game.

And yes he's probably going to be the worst of the 5 offensively but you're comparing him to 4 tremendous offensive players some of whom are pure offensive-defensemen. I still see McDonagh being a 40 point player and given where his defense is I'll take 40 points and be happy with it.

The only guy on this list right now, who can match McDonagh's overall game is Subban who will give you marginally more offensive and marginally less defense.

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12-28-2012, 11:14 AM
  #53
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The reason McDonagh didn't get PP time last season had nothing to do with him not having the toolset to play there. He was playing almost 30 minutes per game without any PP time; playing him on the PP unnecessarily would have been a sure fire way to burn him out in his FIRST FULL SEASON in the NHL. It can be argued that the Rangers ultimately fizzled out in the playoffs when McDonagh and Girardi finally did run out of steam; playing McD on the PP, especially with Staal out most of the year would have simply been counter productive.

The fact remains his offensive production for his first full NHL season was FAR beyond respectable, especially for a player as defensively dominant and he showed flashes of good vision and very good hands. We all KNOW offensive prowess wasn't on his scouting report but we're watching him develop and he's one of those players who just will continue working and improving all aspects of his game and surprising people. With his wheels and solid shot and passing, it's easy to see the other tools coming along if you watch him game in and out and know that his offense will continue to increase.

Maybe if your last impression of him is him being gassed in the playoffs after playing 30 grinding minutes a night, including a ~55 minute game in round 2 than you're not going to see that but, if you were watching him every night down the stretch in NY you'd know that towards the end of the season he was carrying the puck into the zone, beating defenders one on one, showing hands we didn't think he had and displaying new found confidence on the attack. He will eventually play PP minutes as well and it is a virtual absolute that he will continue to increase his offensive numbers.

I voted Subban, by the way, but people are flat out wrong about McD being overhyped or not having the offensive potential to be a 40+ point dman (a mere 8+ point increase over his first full year). He absolutely has more to show offensively.


Last edited by SERE 24: 12-28-2012 at 11:23 AM.
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Old
12-28-2012, 11:17 AM
  #54
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Bruins fan going with Subban, I actually like him though, MCD is close behind him.

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12-28-2012, 11:30 AM
  #55
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All five players have the potential to develop into all-star caliber defensemen, however Subban and McDonagh have already proved themselves as first-pairing stud defensemen.

It's crazy to think that they could be sharing top-line minutes in Montreal... Thank you Glen Sather.

However, between the two I chose McDonagh for his outstanding skating and reliable two-way play. The guy can literally turn around from a stand still and catch a Kovalchuk or an Ovechkin on a dead breakaway.

And as a Rangers fan, I've been fortunate to watch two great all-star defensemen in Marc Staal and Dan Girardi. Ryan Mcdonagh is better than both of them.

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Old
12-28-2012, 11:34 AM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Psyduck View Post
Wow, Mcdonagh is extremely overrated on here.

Ok, so he was a plus 25 on a team where Michael Del Zotto was a plus 20. He had 7 goals and 25 assists. Not bad for a defenseman but not great either. Just on his own team he has a guy in Del Zotto who is a year younger and scored 10 goals and 31 assists in five less games. That's 9 more points in five less games. That just goes to show you how stacked the Rangers were.

I'd take a guy like Subban over him. He scored more points in less games on a worse team at the same age.

I'd take a guy like Schultz over him. He has lit up the AHL for 16 goals and 40 pts in only 28 games played.

Mcdonagh certainly has the advantage on Fowler who IMO has been a defensive liability every time I've seen him play. Faulk, as a rookie last season, showed signs that he could play great defensive hockey and contributed more goals than Mcdonagh. Although the poor Carolina defense wrecked his plus-minus.

For me it is:
Schultz
Subban
Mcdonagh/Faulk
Fowler
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't McDonagh actually a shut-down/two way defender? He's definitely no offensive defensemen, hence his point totals are very respectable. I want him back... you can have Gomez.

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Old
12-28-2012, 11:38 AM
  #57
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Subban
McDonagh
Fowler
Faulk
Schultz

The difference between Subban and McDonagh is not that big, but I like Subban a bit better.

I laughed out loud at the "generational" tag applied to Schultz, though. That was amusing. Don't get me wrong, he looks like he will be a good offensive defenceman, but he is nothing generational and should not be in the same poll as Subban and McDonagh. It would be like me trying to claim Galchenyuk should be in the same poll as Hall, Eberle, and RNH.

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Old
12-28-2012, 11:56 AM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
he has a good shot yes.

He plays a ton of minutes and is a decent passer yes.

He got 2 assists on the PP all season because only elite offensive Dmen play big PP minutes.

This ES crap is getting ridiclous IMO, if you are going to use that at least do the production on a per minute basis to make it an objective playing field would you.

But no you won't do that because it's a pick and choose thing with stuff like this McDonagh is hands down the bottom player here in terms of offensive skill period.

He has 4 assists in 25 playoff games where he plays 26:01 MPG
OK, of the defenseman in the NHL who had > 17 minutes of ES ice time per 60 (ie. 1st pairing defenseman) he was #12 in points per 60.

ERIKKARLSSON
KRISTOPHERLETANG
KEVINBIEKSA
KEITHYANDLE
DUSTINBYFUGLIEN
ZDENOCHARA
DANBOYLE
ZACHBOGOSIAN
DMITRYKULIKOV
MATTHEWCARLE
BRENTSEABROOK
RYANMCDONAGH

Those are all very good offensive defenseman, the only one who surprises me on this list is Bieksa. Carle obviously benefits from playing on Philly who had the 3rd most goals in the leauge last year.

So yeah, the kid's good offensively no matter which way you want to slice it.

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12-28-2012, 12:01 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sureves View Post
OK, of the defenseman in the NHL who had > 17 minutes of ES ice time per 60 (ie. 1st pairing defenseman) he was #12 in points per 60.

ERIKKARLSSON
KRISTOPHERLETANG
KEVINBIEKSA
KEITHYANDLE
DUSTINBYFUGLIEN
ZDENOCHARA
DANBOYLE
ZACHBOGOSIAN
DMITRYKULIKOV
MATTHEWCARLE
BRENTSEABROOK
RYANMCDONAGH

Those are all very good offensive defenseman, the only one who surprises me on this list is Bieksa. Carle obviously benefits from playing on Philly who had the 3rd most goals in the leauge last year.

So yeah, the kid's good offensively no matter which way you want to slice it.

But... but... that's still just stat picking, even though it's exactly how I told you to rank the players, expecting it would hurt your argument rather than help it... now do it some other arbitrary way until it finally doesn't suggest McDonagh is as good as you say because I need to sound like I know what I'm talking about!!!

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12-28-2012, 12:13 PM
  #60
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I selected McDonagh.

While he may never put up great offensive points (60+ points) I do see him reaching 40-45 points while being the best defensive defenceman on the list.

So, while a few guys on the list may have been offensive seasons, I do not see one guy listed that is better than McDonagh defensively and I don't see that changing any time soon.

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12-28-2012, 03:03 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sureves View Post
OK, of the defenseman in the NHL who had > 17 minutes of ES ice time per 60 (ie. 1st pairing defenseman) he was #12 in points per 60.

ERIKKARLSSON
KRISTOPHERLETANG
KEVINBIEKSA
KEITHYANDLE
DUSTINBYFUGLIEN
ZDENOCHARA
DANBOYLE
ZACHBOGOSIAN
DMITRYKULIKOV
MATTHEWCARLE
BRENTSEABROOK
RYANMCDONAGH

Those are all very good offensive defenseman, the only one who surprises me on this list is Bieksa. Carle obviously benefits from playing on Philly who had the 3rd most goals in the leauge last year.

So yeah, the kid's good offensively no matter which way you want to slice it.
In raw stats he is barely inside the top 40 in Dman scoring.

It's not like NYR have PP specialists blocking McDonagah from exploiting his wealth of offensive talent either.

Part of that ranking is that he played in all 82 games and 10th in overall ice time.

His PPG was .39 which puts him 49th among NHL Dmen overall.

Someone mentioned 40 points as being attainable and sure it could be if injuries decimated the ranger blue line and they were forced to use him more on the PP. Extremely unlikely it ever happens though.

For the record the last time he scored at a 40 point pace or higher was in high school.

He is quite simply not an offensively gifted Dman period.

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12-28-2012, 03:11 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
In raw stats he is barely inside the top 40 in Dman scoring.

It's not like NYR have PP specialists blocking McDonagah from exploiting his wealth of offensive talent either.

Part of that ranking is that he played in all 82 games and 10th in overall ice time.

His PPG was .39 which puts him 49th among NHL Dmen overall.

Someone mentioned 40 points as being attainable and sure it could be if injuries decimated the ranger blue line and they were forced to use him more on the PP. Extremely unlikely it ever happens though.

For the record the last time he scored at a 40 point pace or higher was in high school.

He is quite simply not an offensively gifted Dman period.
You are so pathetically and obnoxiously wrong it isn't funny. You know nothing about the Rangers, which you've made quite clear, and are absolutely in no way qualified to comment on why he didn't receive PP time, which I will explain for you AGAIN here:

The reason McDonagh didn't get PP time last season had nothing to do with him not having the toolset to play there. He was playing almost 30 minutes per game without any PP time; playing him on the PP unnecessarily would have been a sure fire way to burn him out in his FIRST FULL SEASON in the NHL. It can be argued that the Rangers ultimately fizzled out in the playoffs when McDonagh and Girardi finally did run out of steam; playing McD on the PP, especially with Staal out most of the year would have simply been counter productive.

The fact remains his offensive production for his first full NHL season was FAR beyond respectable, especially for a player as defensively dominant and he showed flashes of great vision and very good hands as the season wore on. We all KNOW offensive prowess wasn't on his scouting report but we're watching him develop and he's one of those players who just will continue working and improving all aspects of his game and surprising people. With his wheels and solid shot and passing, it's easy to see the other tools coming along if you watch him game in and out and know that his offense will continue to increase.

Maybe if your last impression of him is him being gassed in the playoffs after playing 30 grinding minutes a night, including a ~55 minute game in round 2 than you're not going to see that but, if you were watching him every night down the stretch in NY you'd know that towards the end of the season he was carrying the puck into the zone, beating defenders one on one, showing hands we didn't think he had and displaying new found confidence on the attack. He will eventually play PP minutes as well and it is a virtual absolute that he will continue to increase his offensive numbers.

Moreover, in order for him to score 40 points he would need to improve the totals from his first NHL season by 8 points. The fact that he hasn't done that since high school is absolutely irrelevant. As is literally 90% of what you have posted in this thread. He is demonstrating that he is a good deal more offensively talented than it was thought at his draft time. It's called developing. He has more of an offensive game than when he was scouted. It wouldn't be the first time a prospect has developed an aspect of their game they weren't initially expected to. The kid is CLEARLY improving his offensive game as time goes on and if you WATCH him play instead of constantly mouthing off with percentages and skewed stats, you would understand that he scored 32 points last season while becoming dramatically more visible and confident offensively towards the end of the season and has more offensive potential that we have not yet witnessed. You would also understand why he didn't receive PP time instead of COMPLETELY MAKING UP false claims that suit your own argument. You have been proven wrong numerous times, including when provided with stats that you yourself asked for, yet you insist on being an expert on a player who you're clearly not qualified to assess because you've read some scouting reports on him. Your insistence on being right and knowing better than the people who watch him daily is EVERYTHING that is wrong and frustrating about HF boards compounded in this thread.


Last edited by SERE 24: 12-28-2012 at 03:17 PM.
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Old
12-28-2012, 03:19 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MPF24 View Post
You are so pathetically and obnoxiously wrong it isn't funny. You know nothing about the Rangers, which you've made quite clear, and are absolutely in no way qualified to comment on why he didn't receive PP time, which I will explain for you AGAIN here:

The reason McDonagh didn't get PP time last season had nothing to do with him not having the toolset to play there. He was playing almost 30 minutes per game without any PP time; playing him on the PP unnecessarily would have been a sure fire way to burn him out in his FIRST FULL SEASON in the NHL. It can be argued that the Rangers ultimately fizzled out in the playoffs when McDonagh and Girardi finally did run out of steam; playing McD on the PP, especially with Staal out most of the year would have simply been counter productive.

The fact remains his offensive production for his first full NHL season was FAR beyond respectable, especially for a player as defensively dominant and he showed flashes of great vision and very good hands as the season wore on. We all KNOW offensive prowess wasn't on his scouting report but we're watching him develop and he's one of those players who just will continue working and improving all aspects of his game and surprising people. With his wheels and solid shot and passing, it's easy to see the other tools coming along if you watch him game in and out and know that his offense will continue to increase.

Maybe if your last impression of him is him being gassed in the playoffs after playing 30 grinding minutes a night, including a ~55 minute game in round 2 than you're not going to see that but, if you were watching him every night down the stretch in NY you'd know that towards the end of the season he was carrying the puck into the zone, beating defenders one on one, showing hands we didn't think he had and displaying new found confidence on the attack. He will eventually play PP minutes as well and it is a virtual absolute that he will continue to increase his offensive numbers.

Moreover, in order for him to score 40 points he would need to improve the totals from his first NHL season by 8 points. The fact that he hasn't done that since high school is absolutely irrelevant. As is literally 90% of what you have posted in this thread. He is demonstrating that he is a good deal more offensively talented than it was thought at his draft time. It's called developing. He has more of an offensive game than when he was scouted. It wouldn't be the first time a prospect has developed an aspect of their game they weren't initially expected to. The kid is CLEARLY improving his offensive game as time goes on and if you WATCH him play instead of constantly mouthing off with percentages and skewed stats, you would understand that he scored 32 points last season while becoming dramatically more visible and confident offensively towards the end of the season and has more offensive potential that we have not yet witnessed. You would also understand why he didn't receive PP time instead of COMPLETELY MAKING UP false claims that suit your own argument. You have been proven wrong numerous times, including when provided with stats that you yourself asked for, yet you insist on being an expert on a player who you're clearly not qualified to assess because you've read some scouting reports on him. Your insistence on being right and knowing better than the people who watch him daily is EVERYTHING that is wrong and frustrating about HF boards compounded in this thread.
It is kinda funny.

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Old
12-28-2012, 03:28 PM
  #64
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PK Subban. Plays the most complete game out of all three. IMO

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12-28-2012, 03:29 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MPF24 View Post
You are so pathetically and obnoxiously wrong it isn't funny. You know nothing about the Rangers, which you've made quite clear, and are absolutely in no way qualified to comment on why he didn't receive PP time, which I will explain for you AGAIN here:

The reason McDonagh didn't get PP time last season had nothing to do with him not having the toolset to play there. He was playing almost 30 minutes per game without any PP time; playing him on the PP unnecessarily would have been a sure fire way to burn him out in his FIRST FULL SEASON in the NHL. It can be argued that the Rangers ultimately fizzled out in the playoffs when McDonagh and Girardi finally did run out of steam; playing McD on the PP, especially with Staal out most of the year would have simply been counter productive.

The fact remains his offensive production for his first full NHL season was FAR beyond respectable, especially for a player as defensively dominant and he showed flashes of great vision and very good hands as the season wore on. We all KNOW offensive prowess wasn't on his scouting report but we're watching him develop and he's one of those players who just will continue working and improving all aspects of his game and surprising people. With his wheels and solid shot and passing, it's easy to see the other tools coming along if you watch him game in and out and know that his offense will continue to increase.

Maybe if your last impression of him is him being gassed in the playoffs after playing 30 grinding minutes a night, including a ~55 minute game in round 2 than you're not going to see that but, if you were watching him every night down the stretch in NY you'd know that towards the end of the season he was carrying the puck into the zone, beating defenders one on one, showing hands we didn't think he had and displaying new found confidence on the attack. He will eventually play PP minutes as well and it is a virtual absolute that he will continue to increase his offensive numbers.

Moreover, in order for him to score 40 points he would need to improve the totals from his first NHL season by 8 points. The fact that he hasn't done that since high school is absolutely irrelevant. As is literally 90% of what you have posted in this thread. He is demonstrating that he is a good deal more offensively talented than it was thought at his draft time. It's called developing. He has more of an offensive game than when he was scouted. It wouldn't be the first time a prospect has developed an aspect of their game they weren't initially expected to. The kid is CLEARLY improving his offensive game as time goes on and if you WATCH him play instead of constantly mouthing off with percentages and skewed stats, you would understand that he scored 32 points last season while becoming dramatically more visible and confident offensively towards the end of the season and has more offensive potential that we have not yet witnessed. You would also understand why he didn't receive PP time instead of COMPLETELY MAKING UP false claims that suit your own argument. You have been proven wrong numerous times, including when provided with stats that you yourself asked for, yet you insist on being an expert on a player who you're clearly not qualified to assess because you've read some scouting reports on him. Your insistence on being right and knowing better than the people who watch him daily is EVERYTHING that is wrong and frustrating about HF boards compounded in this thread.
The kid is 3 years older than Fowler and Faulk, along with Subban.

When he scores his 40 plus points come here and tell me what a late bloomer he was ect...

The simple fact that over a long stretch of games in regular season and playoffs in his professional career he has shown that he is quite a bit lower than all 4 other guys in this thread.

Schultz is 1 year younger and clearly the most offensively advanced at this point.

Subban is the same age as McDonagah and is clearly ahead as well.

Both Faulk and Fowler are also clearly ahead as well despite being 3 years younger and are still growing in their offensive prowess.

Mcdonagah is the best defensively but part of the system in NYR helps his game as well as having a world class goalie.

Anyone can see the differences between these 3 players offensively with the eye test and by simply reading scouting reports and looking at comparative stats between the 5 players.

Your defense is quite simply a fans reaction to a more objective view.

Not to mention your distortion of stats for 1 season to imply a set of skills he doesn't have.

Go find an actual scouting report that even suggests that his offense is even close to any of the guys listed ehre.


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Old
12-28-2012, 03:52 PM
  #66
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Schultz has NEVER SCORED a single point in the NHL. You fan boys are pathetic. You wanna play the "when McDonagh scores his 40 points come talk to me" card? When
Schultz is HALF the d-man that McDonagh is IN THE NHL, you come talk to me, okay?

You're just wrong. Your most recent post is terrible in so many ways. There's nothing objective about your response; you'd have to WATCH all of the players to HAVE an objective opinion and you CLEARLY don't. Moreover, to say Schultz is "clearly the most offensively advanced" is a JOKE. How can that possibly be CLEAR when he has yet to set foot in the NHL? Yakupov is CLEARLY more offensively talented than Malkin as well, did you know that? He hasn't played a game yet, but it's simply CLEAR, if you're objective

Justin Faulk scored 10 less points, while being inferior in every category, and got 12 of his points on the powerplay. I've already addressed why McD wasn't getting PP minutes. It didn't suit your argument so you chose to ignore it. There is literally nothing about your opinion that is objective, but there is plenty about it that is BS. PK Subban scored 4 more points than McD while picking up 14 on the PP. Last year he only had 2 more points, and 18 came on the PP. Cam Fowler had 8 more points as a purely offensive rookie, but 23 of those points came on the PP and this year he had 3 less points, while picking up 11 on the PP. McDonagh had the second most points, 4 behind Subban, while not getting PP time, which, I've now addressed several times, was not for a lack of offensive skills but team needs. You keep bringing up age, but it doesn't change the fact that McDonagh just completed his first full season in the league and CLEARLY has time to continue developing himself as well as continue adjusting to the competition level in the NHL. He will ONLY improve, and MUCH more importantly, as I've now stated numerous times, if you actually WATCH him play it was beyond evident that his offensive game was blossoming towards the end of the season. That's not a "distortion of stats"; that's a direct observation. You keep talking about scouting reports. I addressed that already; you think that because you read a few scouting reports you now know all there is to know about the player. You are a JOKE. No player has ever deviated from their scouting report? Exceeded their potential or busted when they were supposed to be as close to a sure thing as possible? Developed a physical game they weren't expected to have or became steadier defensively than expected? Became a much better two way player than anticipated? None of that has EVER happened in the history of scouting reports, right? And it's impossible that the guy who scored 32 points in his first full season in the NHL as a d-man has more offensive ability than his scouting reports indicated as well. I see. He is 8 points shy of 40 after his first full season and it is actually, almost inconceivable that he wouldn't improve enough to hit that mark. Your posts have been so wrong, so misinformed and uninformed, so bogged down with made up BS and fallacies and so far from objective that I'm amazed you even take yourself seriously. And I am done responding to you, so don't bother pouring more baloney into this thread.


Last edited by SERE 24: 12-28-2012 at 03:57 PM.
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12-28-2012, 04:23 PM
  #67
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McDonagh or Subban.

Schultz is going to have to show me something at the NHL level before he's in the conversation. He wouldn't be the first guy to light up the AHL and not produce as well when he makes the next step, look at John Slaney for example.

Not that I'm saying Oilers fans shouldn't be happy or excited about his production, but some of you would do well to temper your expectations a bit.

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12-28-2012, 04:55 PM
  #68
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Quote:
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Schultz has NEVER SCORED a single point in the NHL. You fan boys are pathetic. You wanna play the "when McDonagh scores his 40 points come talk to me" card? When
Schultz is HALF the d-man that McDonagh is IN THE NHL, you come talk to me, okay?

You're just wrong. Your most recent post is terrible in so many ways. There's nothing objective about your response; you'd have to WATCH all of the players to HAVE an objective opinion and you CLEARLY don't. Moreover, to say Schultz is "clearly the most offensively advanced" is a JOKE. How can that possibly be CLEAR when he has yet to set foot in the NHL? Yakupov is CLEARLY more offensively talented than Malkin as well, did you know that? He hasn't played a game yet, but it's simply CLEAR, if you're objective

Justin Faulk scored 10 less points, while being inferior in every category, and got 12 of his points on the powerplay. I've already addressed why McD wasn't getting PP minutes. It didn't suit your argument so you chose to ignore it. There is literally nothing about your opinion that is objective, but there is plenty about it that is BS. PK Subban scored 4 more points than McD while picking up 14 on the PP. Last year he only had 2 more points, and 18 came on the PP. Cam Fowler had 8 more points as a purely offensive rookie, but 23 of those points came on the PP and this year he had 3 less points, while picking up 11 on the PP. McDonagh had the second most points, 4 behind Subban, while not getting PP time, which, I've now addressed several times, was not for a lack of offensive skills but team needs. You keep bringing up age, but it doesn't change the fact that McDonagh just completed his first full season in the league and CLEARLY has time to continue developing himself as well as continue adjusting to the competition level in the NHL. He will ONLY improve, and MUCH more importantly, as I've now stated numerous times, if you actually WATCH him play it was beyond evident that his offensive game was blossoming towards the end of the season. That's not a "distortion of stats"; that's a direct observation. You keep talking about scouting reports. I addressed that already; you think that because you read a few scouting reports you now know all there is to know about the player. You are a JOKE. No player has ever deviated from their scouting report? Exceeded their potential or busted when they were supposed to be as close to a sure thing as possible? Developed a physical game they weren't expected to have or became steadier defensively than expected? Became a much better two way player than anticipated? None of that has EVER happened in the history of scouting reports, right? And it's impossible that the guy who scored 32 points in his first full season in the NHL as a d-man has more offensive ability than his scouting reports indicated as well. I see. He is 8 points shy of 40 after his first full season and it is actually, almost inconceivable that he wouldn't improve enough to hit that mark. Your posts have been so wrong, so misinformed and uninformed, so bogged down with made up BS and fallacies and so far from objective that I'm amazed you even take yourself seriously. And I am done responding to you, so don't bother pouring more baloney into this thread.
Yes you are clearly more objective than I'm being here. Right?

Climbing over the litany of straw men left in your post i will respond.

Maybe it's different in New York and Ottawa but most coaches play their best PP players on the PP and their best PK players on the PK.

The reason why all those players scored more points on the PP is because they have better PP skills and offensive skill sets.

All 4 players have greatly outscored McDonagah in comparative settings at similar ages or much younger.

Fowler had 40 NHL points at the age of 19 in the 1st year he was drafted from the OHL.

Faulk has 33 points in NCAA hockey the year after he was drafted and has had 28 points in 38 games in his age 20-21 seasons.

Subban we know how he has done.

Schultz has blown away McDonagah in both the the WCHA and the AHL.

In fact when both played on the same team Schultz scored 2 more goals and 4 more points despite being 1 year younger but that was probably only due to PP time right?

Perhaps if you could take off your NYR filter and Jersey and take an objective look at things you can see that promoting McDonagah as "a force offensively" is just plain silly.

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12-28-2012, 04:56 PM
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I'll take the one that can play defense.

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12-28-2012, 04:57 PM
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Voted Subban because he is established enough and has crazy offensive upside, but McDonagh's better defensively and is being underrated offensively here. People can hate on McDonagh if they want, but when you take all his stats/toi/RelQofC/etc, it pretty straight forward points to him as a top 25-30 offensive d-man, if not better. He faced THE TOUGHEST competition among any starting d-man in the entire nhl last year with heavy d-zone starts playing next to the Girardi(who had 12 less ES pts than him) and still put up respectable offensive stats/min.

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12-28-2012, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Zen Arcade View Post
McDonagh or Subban.

Schultz is going to have to show me something at the NHL level before he's in the conversation. He wouldn't be the first guy to light up the AHL and not produce as well when he makes the next step, look at John Slaney for example.

Not that I'm saying Oilers fans shouldn't be happy or excited about his production, but some of you would do well to temper your expectations a bit.
Schultz is on pace to shatter 120 pts in an 82 game season. Slaney never hit those numbers in any level he played.

He is clearly a special talent. I think he can also easily come out as the best player in this list. You can't fault him for getting his degree.

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12-28-2012, 05:08 PM
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Zen Arcade
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Schultz is on pace to shatter 120 pts in an 82 game season. Slaney never hit those numbers in any level he played.

He is clearly a special talent. I think he can also easily come out as the best player in this list. You can't fault him for getting his degree.
On pace, but it's only been 29 games. Whether he maintains that level remains to be seen. Not to mention that he's not used to playing as many games as he'll be playing this season, so it wouldn't surprise me if he slowed down a bit at some point.

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12-28-2012, 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Yes you are clearly more objective than I'm being here. Right?

Climbing over the litany of straw men left in your post i will respond.

Maybe it's different in New York and Ottawa but most coaches play their best PP players on the PP and their best PK players on the PK.

The reason why all those players scored more points on the PP is because they have better PP skills and offensive skill sets.

All 4 players have greatly outscored McDonagah in comparative settings at similar ages or much younger.

Fowler had 40 NHL points at the age of 19 in the 1st year he was drafted from the OHL.

Faulk has 33 points in NCAA hockey the year after he was drafted and has had 28 points in 38 games in his age 20-21 seasons.

Subban we know how he has done.

Schultz has blown away McDonagah in both the the WCHA and the AHL.

In fact when both played on the same team Schultz scored 2 more goals and 4 more points despite being 1 year younger but that was probably only due to PP time right?

Perhaps if you could take off your NYR filter and Jersey and take an objective look at things you can see that promoting McDonagah as "a force offensively" is just plain silly.
As a Habs fan I would take McDonagh over everyone on the list except Subban...and I would rate him pretty much on a similar level to Subban. The rest are not even close at this point. Subban and McDonagh clearly outdid everyone on that list last year in almost every category. Fowler might have an offensive edge over McDonagh, but McDonagh is a far better defensive force and was still able to produce a significant amount of points without any PP time.

Fowler and Faulk are good players with plenty of upside.

Schultz is a great prospect. When he gets on the ice and impresses at the NHL level, then we can decide. I love Yakupov's talent, but if I had to choose between him, Hall, RNH, Benn, or Pacioretty, I do NOT take Yakupov over any of them at this point.

If you are building a team, though, and those are the 5 guys you have to choose from, you go with Subban or McDonagh. The others are not close. I would give the edge to Subban over McDonagh, but not by much.

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12-28-2012, 06:22 PM
  #74
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Subban and McDonagh are at a similar level, it would take some more time to clearly establish which one is better. I'd pick Subban because of his personality and style, and because I'm a Habs fan

The others are just too unproven to be in the conversation.

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12-28-2012, 07:21 PM
  #75
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Nobody talking about Schultz's numbers seems to be taking into account that he's playing the AHL with an abundance of talent that belongs in the NHL. He's had Eberle, Hall, and RNH most of the season.

The Oilers are the only team young enough and rich enough in young talent to send their entire NHL first line to the minors. That has to be inflating all of their stats a little.

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